black02em2

I recently took apart my bottom bracket to service it. When putting it back together, the spindle becomes impossible to spin after the adjustable cup is only screwed in a few threads.

I installed the lock ring just to see and there is still play in the spindle. I then installed the crank arms and the Drive-side is very close to the chainstays whereas the non-drive side is further away.

So far I've tried:

• Flipping the cage bearings inside out
• Made sure the longer side of the spindle was on the Drive-side
• Greased the threads and packed with more grease
• Test fitted both cups without the spindle to ensure they went all the way in.

At this point I feel like the caged bearings are shot, therefore I ordered loose ball bearings which I'll try instead.

​​​​​​Any suggestions?

Papa Tom

I've had the same problem. A mechanic shared a trick that involves lightly turning the bracket BACKWARDS in the cup with your hand until you feel it "click" into place. It sometimes takes what feels like an hour, but you will eventually feel the click, and then you will be able to tighten it all the way.

black02em2

What I find strange is that I can get it to screw all the way in without the spindle/bearings but when I put the spindle in, it goes in halfway then the spindle gets too tight to spin, making the spindle grind when I turn it.

Bill Kapaun

Do the bearings have retainers?
Backwards?
We typically toss retainers and use 11 balls and grease to hold them in place.

rhenning

Did you replace the spindle with a different one? You may have put a long one in a frame designed for a short one. Roger

JoeTBM 

Did you possibly put the spindle in backward, they are not always symmetrical. There should be some printing on the spindle and it would orientate as if you were looking at it from the bicycle seat.

Another possibility is the cage for the bearings is not perfectly round or the cage is hanging on an edge so they are not properly seated taking up additional space. Use plenty of sticky grease to make sure they stay in place while assembling it. make sure the "ball" side of the cage is facing the cups (facing outwards). Your situation almost sounds like the bearings are not seated into the fixed cup side.

This video covers most of the points
.

Iride01 

You didn't change anything? Only cleaned, greased and attempted to reassemble, right? Have you ever done this before or is this a first?


edit... are you sure you didn't just put the caged bearings in backwards?

Unca_Sam

It just looks like you haven't fully seated the spindle through the cup seals. It might be because the bearing cage has caught on the edge of the cup. Your flats will never be that close to the outside of the cups. Did you put the bearings on the spindle first?

When I do this work, I prefer to take my bearings, loose or caged, and tuck them into a nice cozy bed of grease in the cup, not on the spindle. Then I install the fixed cup and push the DS of the spindle through without nudging the bearings as best as I can. They don't have to be perfect because the spindle race will push them into the proper position. Slide that adjustable cup over the NDS spindle and lock it into place

black02em2

Exactly that, they have retainers. I tossed them and ordered some 1/4" loose balls which I will try instead.
The bike is new to me and I am overhauling it now. I just removed the spindle and repacked.
I think you are right. I tried the spindle both ways. From what I've read, the writing on the spindle should be able to be read from non-drive side to drive side. Looking from back of the bike towards the front, longer side on the Drive-side. I have a feeling it could be the bearings not seating properly and the cages taking too much room. I've ordered 1/4" loose balls to replace them.
Yes, just overhauling. I tried the cages both directions with pretty much the same result. I have a feeling they aren't seated correctly.
Thanks for the advice, it's probably a mix of the bearings not seated in the cups as well as spindle not seated all the way through the seals.

I've ordered 1/4" loose balls which I think will help and I'll follow your steps. Thanks!

Bill Kapaun

The spindle doesn't appear to be protruding as far on the DS as it should.
Without even installing any NDS parts-
Try pushing the spindle in with the DS retainer/bearings seated in both orientations.
I'm pretty sure you have at least that retainer backward.

black02em2

I think you were right, the retainers regardless of which way they are installed don't sit properly against the spindle. I received my loose ball bearings today so I will try and install those instead.

black02em2

So I installed the loose ball bearings (11 on each side) and packed them with an insane amount of grease. I also ensured the longer side of the spindle was on the Drive-side.

At this point there is a bit of a scratching noise and still a little bit of play in the spindle, even though I can't screw the adjustable cup any further. If I do, it gets too tight and the spindle won't move.

Any suggestions?

djb

I realize that you've put time into this, but simply buying a sealed bb with the proper length axle is generally an inexpensive item and totally worth it in the long run if you plan to use the bike.
Even a very moderately priced shimano un24 or whatever is fine, although the very good quality un55 model is an excellent price/quality item that will last for ages and ages without any maintenance.

andrewclaus

If the spindle is asymmetrical, you should be able to see more clearance between the start of the square taper and the bearing cup on the drive side (DS) than on the non-drive side (NDS).

In your first set of photos, the DS shows no clearance to the start of the taper, the NDS shows negative clearance. That's clearly wrong.

Your last photo only shows the NDS, and it shows zero clearance, which may be correct, but we can't see the DS.

If I were there, I'd disassemble everything, and assemble each bearing on the bench, getting visual confirmation the spindle race is contacting the bearing correctly in the cup, and noting the clearances mentioned above.

djb

good idea on assembling on bench.
I know I've installed an axle wrong way around or other mistakes. Been a long time but I remember finding things not matching up at reassembly point before and then figuring it out eventually.

black02em2

Believe me, I am pretty much at that point. I spent all night looking for replacement sealed cartridge BB. It uses later 80's Nervar cranks which are not stamped with a model number. Research leads me towards an ISO BB. If that's true, I couldn't find any sealed cartridge ones in ISO with my spindle length (121mm-122mm).

The Shimano ones seemed to be JIS. Any suggestions?


Here is a picture of both sides. I'll try taking it apart again. I've packed it with so much grease hoping that it would help with the rough feeling but I'll try again.

djb

re sealed bb's.
If you do go this route, just remember that unless you have the specific tool to remove the side with "tange na" etc on it, you can use a bench vice if you have one. Last year or something I overhauled my wifes commuter bike, an old hybrid that had original ball bearing bb, and bought a un24 or 25 or whatever it is (20 bucks maybe). I didnt have the specific tool for that side, but was able to use my bench vice to clamp onto the small edges of that cup, and rotate the bike the proper direction and loosen the part for removal.
I did have to check and double check the thread direction, but it worked out in the end. (actually dont recall the details of which direction it is on that side.....sorry)

also, although its been a long time since Ive had a store install a sealed square taper, if its easier, just have them do it, probably adds 20 dollars or something to the cost of the bb.

sovende

Bottom line here is if you are putting all of the original parts back in (i.e. just cleaning and re-greasing) AND it's not going back together so that everything looks the way it did before you disassembled it, you're doing it wrong! Getting a properly sized sealed bearing unit is likely a better fix but if the OEM components are not damaged (i.e. no gouges on the cups or cones and balls still shiny and round) the work you are trying to do should provide good results. It's too late now but taking photos as you take things apart can be quite useful when reassembling! Since that wasn't done, I agree that an "in vitro" (out of the bike) assembly may prove most useful. I would do this using the the ball cages Andy without grease, as it will show the proper orientation of the cage to the bearing surfaces of the cups and cones of the spindle. This might be beyond obvious but have you inspected the inside of the bottom bracket to see if anything in there might be blocking the correct positioning of the spindle? In the absence of that possibility, you just shouldn't be having so much trouble with reassembly!
As sugested by another reply and mentioned above, getting a sealed unit may end up being your solution but for your own personal satisfaction, you just may want to solve the original problem .

Papa Tom

My earlier advice seems to have been washed over, but I'm telling you, I was totally convinced I had the wrong bb, the wrong thread pattern, and the wrong technique until I backed it off about thirty times and finally, FINALLY caught the threads.

Unca_Sam

I see! I had read your advice as moving the spindle enough to coax it into fully seating, not turning the cups backwards to get the threads finally aligned so they can be screwed in straight.

It's good advice, frequently overlooked when giving advice to a new wrench.

andrewclaus

You're suggesting the OP has the adjustable cup cross-threaded? If so, look at the fourth photo in the OP. And it looks like the lock ring is parallel to the shell face in those photos.

Bill Kapaun

One good whack has never failed me. Eventually the wrench will get too "stretched", but $/fixed cup removed, I'll consider it a consumable.
A large fender washer could be used instead of the block of wood. A large socket could be used instead of my BB tool.
I used what was expedient.

woodcraft

What about accepting that that is as far as it should screw in?

Jeff Wills

I would not. As long as no parts have been changed from the original setup the cup should screw all the way in.

At this point I'd suspect that one of the balls has come out of place somehow, particularly since the OP has switched to all loose balls. Either that or one side of the bottom bracket has too many balls.

IMO, it's best to take everything apart and start over from square one. Take both cups out, clean out the bearings and grease, and dry-fit everything without installing the parts in the BB shell. Back when I was working in a shop (early '80's) this showed where I had goofed.

black02em2

I can see how this would happen, but I don't seem to be having this issue. I took out the spindle and re-installed both cups without any issue and smoothly. So I believe the threads are fine and there is nothing in the tubing thats interfering in the way.
Agreed, not cross threaded. Without the spindle in, I was able to screw in both cups smoothly with ease.
What's the block of wood for? In the event then wrench is now too wide?
You may be right, it was my fault for not taking pictures of what it looked like before hand. For all I know, its screwed in as much as it should be.

My main point of reference is the bottom bracket/crankset on my Campagnolo Nuovo Record setup on my other bike. Both the fixed and adjustable cups sit flush against the shell, and the crank arms sit very close as well on the spindle.
Thanks for the great advice. I took everything back apart, counted the loose balls (11 each side), ensured they were sitting in the race, packed with more grease and re-assembled. Very very finicky adjustable cup. It's in slightly more, and took a lot of adjustment put the arms on/off a few times before I could remove the play and not have the feeling of them grinding.

Still a pinch of noise but I can live with that. I'll finish the build and ride it a few KM's to see how it is. Worst case, I disassemble again, clean and pack with different grease OR look for a sealed cartridge BB.