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bike science: more than 1 way to turn a bike?

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bike science: more than 1 way to turn a bike?

Old 05-20-21, 05:42 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
Great video above. It shows that counter steering must be maintained to keep turning. Its not just an initiator. Some people will swear that once a turn is initiated, it will continue without further counter steering. Not true at all.
No, the guy isn't doing what he says he's doing. If you keep the front tire pointed to the outside, you'll fall to the inside of the turn.

The first video shows the handle bar turning left for left turns. It's subtle. Look carefully at the BMW roundel.

The second video shows countersteer in the standard way. The handle bar is rotated briefly to the outside and then it turns to the inside during the turn.
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Old 05-20-21, 05:47 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by unterhausen
It's interesting that this thread concerns motorcycles so much. They are heavy and steering is changed significantly by that. You don't need to consciously countersteer with a bike because it does it itself. I will go so far as to wonder if doing it consciously is counterproductive.
Talking and teaching about countersteer is common for motorcycling. So, it's where the best examples are: being heavy means stuff can be done slowly and easier to see.

You don't need to consciously countersteer but that doesn't mean you can't (or that there's no reason not do do it consciously). The reason to be deliberate about it is that it lets you make tighter turns.

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Old 05-20-21, 05:54 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by seypat
I think this is the best answer so far. I'll be doing a ride this weekend with lots of high speed descending and cornering. I'll get through it. After I'm through those sections, if you ask me how I did it I'll say, "Beats me, but it sure was fun!"
Do you think that this is how racers approach it?

The point isn't that everybody should be aspire to be racers but that there might be things you (or anybody) could learn to do better that just "winging it".
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Old 05-20-21, 06:36 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by seypat
I think this is the best answer so far. I'll be doing a ride this weekend with lots of high speed descending and cornering. I'll get through it. After I'm through those sections, if you ask me how I did it I'll say, "Beats me, but it sure was fun!"

If you think about it, standing or walking bipedally requires constant micro adjustments we're not even aware of.Basically, we have a quadruped body that's been adapted to be stood on its end in a very unstable position. The amount of brain/cns " wiring" needed to pull that off must be enormous, and seems to give us an enormous capacity to balance on relatively unstable things. Tightropes, surf boards, skis, bicycles, balance beams, etc. Sure all of those have some basic skills that can be taught, but ultimately, the person becomes far more proficient through practice than through any kind of theory.
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Old 05-20-21, 07:18 PM
  #105  
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Maybe the OP and others are doing the deep thinking while on practice rides. After all, the point of practice is to ingrain skills/experience until it becomes instinct/nature so you don't have to think about it.
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Old 05-20-21, 07:54 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by seypat
Maybe the OP and others are doing the deep thinking while on practice rides. After all, the point of practice is to ingrain skills/experience until it becomes instinct/nature so you don't have to think about it.

No offense to the op and others, but it's entirely possible that they're misdescribing sincerely what they're actually doing. Other factors than what they're consciously aware of might be more important than the factors they think they know. Every serious attempt I've seen to analyze bicycle technique involves actually observing the riders riding rather than talking to them. If you look at this thread, even op admits in a couple places he really doesn't know where his body is in relation to the seat ("hips on the saddle "). He's guessing how much he leans, but I'm fairly confident his body "knows" how much. It's learned through experience, but these countermotions, etc. are never articulated into some sort of conscious thought, it's just something your cerebellum or whatever can do automatically after a bunch of repetition. We all had to learn how to walk, for example, but how much "technique" have you had to develope?

An interesting thought experiment I've seen demonstrated and tried out on friends is to try to describe changing lanes in a car. Virtually everyone leaves out the last step, a counterturn into the targeted lane. If you left that step out irl, you'd go off one side of the road or the other. Another one is to try to stand on one foot with your eyes closed. You realize very quickly how much adjustment you have to perform to maintain that stance, and how much your brain relies on your vision to do it. You're not conscious of these adjustments until they're interfered with.
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Old 05-20-21, 08:53 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
An interesting thought experiment I've seen demonstrated and tried out on friends is to try to describe changing lanes in a car. Virtually everyone leaves out the last step, a counterturn into the targeted lane. If you left that step out irl, you'd go off one side of the road or the other. Another one is to try to stand on one foot with your eyes closed. You realize very quickly how much adjustment you have to perform to maintain that stance, and how much your brain relies on your vision to do it. You're not conscious of these adjustments until they're interfered with.
You keep pushing this unconscious counter steer aspect over and over. Yes it is, but so what? That doesn't mean we can't discuss, analyze, and train to improve our use of it, especially for handling emergency situations. That's what we did in the LAB course. Practice makes perfect.

It's not that difficult to understand. If you quickly push the bar left, that sets the bike up (even throws the bike!) to quickly turn right. You of course must then correct it or go down. This is how you make a quick maneuver. No matter who you are, or whether you realize the action or not. You can get there with decades of riding like you say you did, or you can discuss, analyze, and practice, and get there much sooner.
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Old 05-20-21, 09:15 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick
You keep pushing this unconscious counter steer aspect over and over. Yes it is, but so what? That doesn't mean we can't discuss, analyze, and train to improve our use of it, especially for handling emergency situations. That's what we did in the LAB course. Practice makes perfect.

It's not that difficult to understand. If you quickly push the bar left, that sets the bike up (even throws the bike!) to quickly turn right. You of course must then correct it or go down. This is how you make a quick maneuver. No matter who you are, or whether you realize the action or not. You can get there with decades of riding like you say you did, or you can discuss, analyze, and practice, and get there much sooner.

You're not going to troll me into another argument about courses. The .075% of cyclists or whatever it is who take the courses can have them. Train all you want, I remain skeptical it and you have any effect at all, and I'm pretty confident that some 99% plus of cyclists learned it more like I did.

I have no interest in this fight, please don't try to pick another one with me again. Your pitiful little "movement" really isn't on the radar of anyone I know.

By the way, this is the second thread you've gone after me unprovoked. We'll get along a lot better if you stop this vain attempt to convert me into your cult.
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Old 05-20-21, 09:39 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
I think we're talking at cross-purposes here--I just don't believe the human brain works in the manner you seem to be describing. I'm sure there's a combination of actions people take that include leaning, countersteering, braking, pedaling and all sorts of actions to affect the turns. I just don't think anyone has the brain capacity to actually consciously calculate some sort of ratio in real time,and that treating these actions like they're somehow alternative approaches rather than a bunch of things we probably do in a sequence we're really not consciously aware of is probably inconsistent with everything I've ever read about neuroscience and proprioception, etc. That being said, maybe I'm having trouble seeing what you're describing because I'm not doing the kind of bicycling you are, so you're right, my "silly" remark was perhaps a bit too flip. My road biking may be too simple to pick up on the kind of nuances you're describing.

I do know that I'm pretty good at dancing around the edge of a pothole that I don't see until the last split second at 24 mph, and I have no idea how I'm actually performing the tight little turns needed to do that. I just know I'm using my hands.
Never suggested calculation. But just different methods. A 'swooping' full-lean no-pedal bend in a descent is one kind of turn. A full power-on pedaling 90 deg crit corner on a slight uphill would be another. ... 2 examples which use different, deliberate skills.
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Old 05-21-21, 07:07 AM
  #110  
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The best article I've seen regarding counter steering, and how practicing it can help one improve their skills and avoid a road hazard or crash. And look, it's about bicycles, not motorcycles!

You must steer the handlebars in the opposite direction you want to turn.That means steering the bike toward the danger first!Remember in the second paragraph, I said that don't even think about "turning" left to avoid the car. Well, you aren't turning left, you are "steering" left. This will cause the bike to fall away from the car toward the direction you want to turn.Basically, you are forcing a lean instantly instead of waiting for it to happen naturally as in a normal turn.Then you steer the handlebars back in the direction of the turn to complete the process.The most common mistake here is to over steer back after the initial steering input.Another common mistake is cramming on the brakes while trying to turn quickly.Both of these actions make the bike straighten out and become upright too early.You want to continue the turn until you have safely turned inside the turn of the car.The point to remember is that you will always lean (or fall) away from the direction you steer the handlebars.
The quicker and more forcefully you do the initial counter steer, the quicker and sharper the resulting turn. Go try it!


Quick turn
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Old 05-21-21, 07:12 AM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
You're not going to troll me into another argument about courses. The .075% of cyclists or whatever it is who take the courses can have them. Train all you want, I remain skeptical it and you have any effect at all, and I'm pretty confident that some 99% plus of cyclists learned it more like I did.

I have no interest in this fight, please don't try to pick another one with me again. Your pitiful little "movement" really isn't on the radar of anyone I know.

By the way, this is the second thread you've gone after me unprovoked. We'll get along a lot better if you stop this vain attempt to convert me into your cult.
Don't flatter yourself, this is not about you.

I only take issue with your "it's all subconscious so there's nothing helpful we can do about it" mindset you continue pushing over and over. That's not true... or helpful.

Last edited by AlmostTrick; 05-21-21 at 07:16 AM.
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Old 05-21-21, 07:34 AM
  #112  
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Threads like this are always amusing, with so many wrong answers and wrong descriptions of steering techniques. The biggest mistake i see posted is the idea that countersteering means that the fork is turned to the left to make a right turn. The direction of the fork is not what defines countersteering. It's the force used to both initiate and maintain a turn. Push on the right side and keep pushing unless you want the bike to straighten up. Then quit pushing. This is clearly demonstrated in some of the videos. If your turn is not tight enough push harder or slow down a bit. Either will tighten a turn. Also look where you want to go, not at the angle of the bars or front tire relative to the bike. As long as you're pushing on the right side, to turn right, you are countersteering, regardless of the direction of the front wheel. At speeds above 10 mph you can't turn right without pushing on right side. At lower speeds, that same push would make a left turn.
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Old 05-21-21, 08:13 AM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
Threads like this are always amusing, with so many wrong answers and wrong descriptions of steering techniques.
Ironic.

Originally Posted by DaveSSS
The biggest mistake i see posted is the idea that countersteering means that the fork is turned to the left to make a right turn.
No, that's not a mistake. That's literally the definition of countersteering.

Originally Posted by DaveSSS
The direction of the fork is not what defines countersteering.
Yes, yes it is. Countersteering is steering in the opposite direction of a turn. "Counter" - "steering".

Originally Posted by DaveSSS
At speeds above 10 mph you can't turn right without pushing on right side. At lower speeds, that same push would make a left turn.
There is no speed limit to countersteering, which is simply turning the front wheel one direction to turn the other direction. Countersteering works at all speeds. And lol no, the countersteering effect is not reversed at lower speeds.

One more time: Countersteering is the only way to use handlebars to turn a two-wheeled vehicle.
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Old 05-21-21, 08:29 AM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick
Don't flatter yourself, this is not about you.

I only take issue with your "it's all subconscious so there's nothing helpful we can do about it" mindset you continue pushing over and over. That's not true... or helpful.

You're back on my ignore list--you keep pulling this make it personal but it's not personal BS. Reread what wrote "You keep pushing blah blah blah. We could blah blah blah like you or we could blah blah blah." I don't find your mindset any more helpful than you find mine.


My whole point all along is we learn far more through experience than we do listening to self-appointed experts. I'll assume a standing objection every time I suggest that non-racers have little or nothing to gain from your brand of training or any other training for that matter. You're not convincing me, and I really don't care what you think, so no loss on either end.
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Old 05-21-21, 08:29 AM
  #115  
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Where countersteering has a place is setting up steep banking turns and correcting rear wheel loss of traction like drifting. Going around a corner and your rear wheel starts to slide out - counter steer. It's not something you practice for day to day riding turns.

But we could argue with words all day.

Here's a video I made while mtbing that shows a pretty good angle for the stem bars. Lots of turns without counter steering, which apparently, is impossible.

Watch from about 1:40 on


Here's another that shows the lack of counter steering on faster shallow turns. And this is a very twitchy bike.


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Old 05-21-21, 08:32 AM
  #116  
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Body steering and counter steering are two independent methods of steering two wheeled vehicles.
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Old 05-21-21, 08:45 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick
It's not that difficult to understand. If you quickly push the bar left, that sets the bike up (even throws the bike!) to quickly turn right. You of course must then correct it or go down. This is how you make a quick maneuver. No matter who you are, or whether you realize the action or not. You can get there with decades of riding like you say you did, or you can discuss, analyze, and practice, and get there much sooner.
I got there when I was 4 yrs old without a course.
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Old 05-21-21, 09:21 AM
  #118  
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I know that there are pictures posted of motorcycles turning right at high speed with the front tire also turned to the right with the bike leaned over in a turn. That makes people claim that countersteering is only used to initiate a turn. All I'm saying is that a countersteering force must always be maintained to keep the bike turning. I don't care which way the tire is pointed. I only look where I want to go and apply the appropriate amount of countersteering force. I also know that the bike will quit turning and straighten up if I quit applying a countersteering force. If that weren't true I would not have successfully ridden thousands of miles of twisting mountain roads. I took what I was taught in my MSF training course and used it successfully. I also apply it on my bicycle, since they work the same.

Many sources describe countersteering as a momentary application of force which is not correct. That implies that a bike will keep turning on it's own once it's leaned over. It will not.
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Old 05-21-21, 09:44 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
I know that there are pictures posted of motorcycles turning right at high speed with the front tire also turned to the right with the bike leaned over in a turn. That makes people claim that countersteering is only used to initiate a turn. All I'm saying is that a countersteering force must always be maintained to keep the bike turning. I don't care which way the tire is pointed.
You are calling something else "countersteering".

The direction the tire is pointing is a key part of countersteering. That's why "steering" is in the term.

Countersteering is the momentary turning of the front wheel away from the direction of the turn. If the wheel is pointing in the direction of the turn, it's not countersteering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

(It's countersteering, not counterpushing, or whatever).

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Old 05-21-21, 10:39 AM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
Lots of turns without counter steering, which apparently, is impossible.
Please cite a statement that asserts that turning without countersteerring is impossible.

Using the handlebars to turn a bike requires countersteering. Using your body weight does not. In fact, it doesn't even require handlebars.
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Old 05-21-21, 10:52 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse
..: Countersteering is the only way to use handlebars to turn a two-wheeled vehicle.
Originally Posted by terrymorse
Please cite a statement that asserts that turning without countersteerring is impossible.

Using the handlebars to turn a bike requires countersteering. Using your body weight does not. In fact, it doesn't even require handlebars.
You own post dude! You even bolded it.

Are now suggesting I was turning in those videos without using the handlebars? Did you look at the videos?

Never let facts get in the way of a good argument 😀
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Old 05-21-21, 10:53 AM
  #122  
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My 1995 Cannondale H300 hybrid is in need of a new headset, since the degree of "indexing" interference with the handling of the bike is becoming annoying, in a Newton's First Law way. However, I can report that turning the bike proceeds as follows.

I begin by leaning left (for example). Bike begins to turn left. Indexed headset keeps the handlebars rigidly centered.

To achieve a tighter turn radius, I steer into the turn. The indexed headset grudgingly allows the bearing balls to emerge from their troughs. Still no counter-steering involved (unless, of course, I choose to counter-steer, in honor of this thread). If counter-steering were involved, I'd know because the bearing balls would click back into place on the way to allowing the bars to turn to the right.

If I'd ever owned a motorcycle, and thus had learned that counter-steering is vital to handling a two-wheeled vehicle that outweighs me by a couple of hundred pounds, I imagine that I'd still manage to convince myself that I'm somehow counter-steering that bike, despite what seems to me clear evidence to the contrary. That being the case, I'll stay out of further discussions here.
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Old 05-21-21, 11:11 AM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by unterhausen
It's interesting that this thread concerns motorcycles so much. They are heavy and steering is changed significantly by that. You don't need to consciously countersteer with a bike because it does it itself. I will go so far as to wonder if doing it consciously is counterproductive.
I'm pretty convinced the physics of turning motorcycles is identical to that of turning bicycles, be they crit geometry, stage race, loaded tourers, MTBs, audax or whatever. Same for teeny kid bikes.

I think (and in my experience commuting 10 mo/year on a 550 cc while a Chicagoan), it is rather hard to steer a motorcycle routinely without countersteering.. For one thing, the throttle is spring-loaded and snaps shut when you try to no-hand it. For another, you weigh between 20% and 50% of a 1970s Japanese motorcycle, and you weigh between 10 times and 25 times what your bicycle does. Your weight shifting for curve initiation has that much more leverage on a bicycle that on a motorcycle. Hand counter steering is about the only practical way to turn a motorcycle - with a deliberate counter steer for a smooth corner, or a sharp forceful countersteer for an emergency situation.
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Old 05-21-21, 11:14 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
Are now suggesting I was turning in those videos without using the handlebars? Did you look at the videos?
Not suggesting, stating as fact. You were not using the handlebars to initiate a turn.

You were turning by using your body weight to lean the bike in the direction you wanted to go. The only alternative to countersteering.

Really, people. This stuff isn't that hard to understand.
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Old 05-21-21, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
I begin by leaning left (for example). Bike begins to turn left.
Yes, that's a good description of "body steering", the other way to turn a bike.

Originally Posted by Trakhak
To achieve a tighter turn radius, I steer into the turn.
You must do more than that, as simply steering into the turn will cause you to become more upright and eventually fall to the outside of the turn.

The "more than that" is additional leaning to the inside.
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