njkayaker

Of course. If you agreed, your OP would have been so confusing. Talking about crits and fork flop added fog to the question (better stated in #211 ).

It isn't about different bike but it's about differences in fork flop?

What bike are you using? Is it really any different than the bikes other people are using? (Seems unlikely to me.)

https://www.velonews.com/gear/techni...e-differently/

Yes. It's in every (reasonable) definition I've never seen. Keep in mind that it's a matter of degree. But if you want to sharpen the turn, you have to definitely steer to the outside momentarily.

"Swoopy"? Sounds like higher-speed, longer radius turns.

(No one is saying there's only one type of turn method.)

High speed turns are going to require lean or a movement of CG to the inside of the turn. Since it takes time to move the CG across the bike, it's not practical to lean much for quick changes in direction.

The other turns appear to be slow speed turns. For these, the CG is going to be more centered on the bike without much lean. For these, I often get off of the seat (so the bike doesn't push my CG around).

Have you done any mountain biking?

You can countersteer a little or countersteer a lot. Fork flop happens on either side. So, it's something you'd control, Some bikes require more control and other less.

(The countersteer doesn't work if it's held too long. It needs to be rather brief to work.)

terrymorse 

Hard to tell without having been there, but probably you:

1. see snake
2. steer away from snake
- wheels track out from under center of mass
- wheels pass by snake
3. steer back
- wheels return under your center of mass
4. steer onto your original course

That's how to do a quick but small course deviation, to avoid an obstacle.

BurleyCat

Head angle is only one factor. Trail, wheelbase, weight distribution, and surface condition (including traction) all contribute. It’s intuitive for the great majority of us. There’s a few questionable assertions in the responses here, but little to no objective measure to prove or disprove them. Through extensive trials I designed and developed the only recumbent bicycle that (to my knowledge) could easily be ridden hands free.

Harold74

1) This is my first counterstaining thread since becoming a member here so I'm grateful to bear witness to it. Not that I couldn't have searched up another I suppose...

2) I'm a structural engineer and rather adept at Newtonian physics. And I, for one, have still struggled with this mightily. In my opinion, a lot of the cycling literature out there does a lousy job of discussing this issue.

3) Last summer, I read a "how to" book on cycling that described countersteering and figured that I'd been missing out all this time. I almost wiped out a few times attempting it around the 'hood as something separate from handlebar steering.

4) Currently, my belief is that countersteering is just an initiation mechanism after which the forces associated with lean and centripetal force must remain in balance according to not so obvious simple physics.

5) For me, the only benefit in knowing about countersteering has been to not be fearful of it happening when I attempt to lean. Not that I was particularly concerned about it to begin with but there is some tendency, for me at least, to try to lean without turning the bars initially. And, of course, that makes it somewhere between difficult and impossible to actually effect the lean. I almost wonder if this is what is difficult about learning to ride a bike when we're kids. Nobody explains this to you, you wouldn't understand if they did, and countersteering does seem initially counterintuitive. Maybe that's what figuring out how to ride a bike initially is all about. Afterwards, it's like riding a bike...

njkayaker

Yes. This is (roughly) what countersteering is defined as and nothing more.

It wouldn't be the first time somebody tried a legitimate technique and over did it. (It doesn't say much about the validity of a technique.)

It seems the difficulty of learning to ride a bike is balancing the thing. People learn to turn reasonably well by experience. They don't realize they are countersteering at all (the amount of countersteering that they typically use is small).

Most people can learn to ride passably-well. Becoming an expert at it is probably not "like riding a bike".

Harold74

Frankly, the real disappointment for me was that there was no magic trick to learn about. I was all set to master countersteering and bust it out galdolph style on every ride, even if I did have to wipe out a few times to get it sorted.

njkayaker

Heh.

I don't think there are any "magic tricks". Many cycling techniques are not drastic improvements (but they add up).

If you add a little bit of extra countersteer deliberately, you can make sharper/quicker turns. This is a well-established technique (whether or not any particular rider needs it).

It's not that obscure a technique for cycling. It's a basic technique for motorcycling.

mwaldin

This whole thread seems silly. This is simple physics. Leaning a bike ;will not cause it to turn at all. Steering the bike to the right while leaning to the left will not get the bike to go to the left (counter steering). Leaning the bike lowers the center of gravity as you turn. This helps with stability (until you lean too far) Turning the handlebars creates a centripetal force that causes the circular motion. End of story.

JeffOYB

Of course. If you agreed, your OP would have been so confusing. Talking about crits and fork flop added fog to the question (better stated in #211 ).

*IT DIDN'T.

It isn't about different bike but it's about differences in fork flop?

*FORK FLOP IS A DETAIL TO CONSIDER. NOBODY DID.

What bike are you using? Is it really any different than the bikes other people are using? (Seems unlikely to me.)

*NEVER SAID IT WAS. SEE WHAT I SAID. I WONDERED IF FLOP HAD AN EFFECT. SOME BIKES HAVE A LOT AND IT AFFECTS THEM. I bought a newish CX bike and it had 72deg HT and too much chopper effect.

https://www.velonews.com/gear/techni...e-differently/


Yes. It's in every (reasonable) definition I've never seen. Keep in mind that it's a matter of degree. But if you want to sharpen the turn, you have to definitely steer to the outside momentarily.


"Swoopy"? Sounds like higher-speed, longer radius turns.

*OR PUSHING THE BARS SIDEWAYS TOWARD THE GROUND AT ANY SPEED.

(No one is saying there's only one type of turn method.)

*MANY SAY THERE'S ONLY ONE WAY A BIKE TURNS. THAT THEY AREN'T STEERED.

JeffOYB

*The 2 techniques I've described give different lean angles for the same speed and radius.

*Crashes happen for the other reason I mention: mishandling obstacle avoidance. Also touching wheels -- riders who dont know how to steer ride w stiff arms and try to 'swoop' off a rear wheel they've pressed against and they wash out their front wheel trying to correct.

njkayaker

???

What is this, then?

================
Is a difference in fork flop a difference in the bikes?

It's only something to consider if other people in your crits where using bikes that had a different fork flop. I suspect the bikes ridden by people you were turning better than were using bikes similar to what you were using.

I doubt the fork flop was different in any meaningful way between the bikes different people used. If that's the case, we don't need to consider it.

(Fork flop also isn't the only geometric thing to consider either.)

??? No one would be getting that meaning from your use of "swoopy".

MAYBE YOU SHOULD IGNORE THEM.

terrymorse 

Not so simple for you to get it right.

Yes, it will. Bike+rider leans to the right, handlebars turn on their own to the right, bike turns to the right.

Yes, it will. Steer to the right, wheels move to the right, bike+rider begin falling to the left, steer to the left to avoid falling, bike turns left.

One more time: Counter steering is the only way to steer a bicycle with the handlebars.

The lower center of gravity is irrelevant to the turning physics. The rider+bike leans in a turn to remain balanced. This doesn't merely help with stability. It keeps you from falling over.

Turning the handlebars moves the tire contact patch, causing the bike+rider to lean in the opposite direction.

Apparently not.

gregf83 

You can change the lean angle of the bike a little but not the lean angle defined by the center of gravity. If you're riding in an arrow position there isn't a lot of benefit to not keeping your body in line with the bike. Hanging your knew out will straighten the bike a little but not sure it helps much on a bicycle.

Crashing from a wheel touch has nothing to do with 'swooping' or riding with stiff arms. As others have mentioned in this thread there's no way to turn without countersteering and when your wheel is pressing against someone else's wheel you're blocked from initiating a turn as you normally would. A rider's instinct to turn away from the touch causes the rider and bike to lean the wrong way and they end up going down. The correct response is to turn the bars into the wheel you're touching.

terrymorse 

What's the technique for recovering from touching wheels, let's say when a rider's front wheel overlaps then rubs against the side of the lead rider's rear wheel?

I have yet to see someone do that without going down.

TwinOaks

I didn't read through the whole thread, so maybe someone already said this. To keep it simple, when you turn, you turn with the bars and you are subject to centrifugal force. This is why your car leans towards the outside of the turn. Because you only have 2 wheels, you lean in to the turn to compensate with centripetal force. The faster you are travelling or the tighter the turn, the more you have to lean to remain balanced as there is more centrifugal force to overcome.

tomato coupe

Bunny hopping would be less controversial. Wait, I take that back ... people will argue about anything.

70sSanO

Clipless pedals?

John

mwaldin

Not so simple for you to get it right.

Well I think our differences have more to do with the English language than facts

Quote:
Leaning a bike ;will not cause it to turn at all.
Yes, it will. Bike+rider leans to the right, handlebars turn on their own to the right, bike turns to the right.

Leaning the bike will not cause the turn. Handlebars are held by the rider. They do not "turn on their own". If the rider holds the straight. You fall over. You do not turn.


Quote:
Steering the bike to the right while leaning to the left will not get the bike to go to the left (counter steering).
Yes, it will. Steer to the right, wheels move to the right, bike+rider begin falling to the left, steer to the left to avoid falling, bike turns left.

One more time: Counter steering is the only way to steer a bicycle with the handlebars.

My bad. I did not know counter steering means to alter the the steering from right to left to avoid falling. In that case you are correct. Changing your mind and steering to the left will indeed cause the bike to turn to the left.

Quote:
Leaning the bike lowers the center of gravity as you turn. This helps with stability (until you lean too far)
The lower center of gravity is irrelevant to the turning physics. The rider+bike leans in a turn to remain balanced. This doesn't merely help with stability. It keeps you from falling over.

What you are saying is different words for the same thing I say. The way to keep balanced is to lower your center of gravity. This puts the g-force lower to the ground and increases the pressure of the tire to the surface, where the friction is. We are saying the same thing.

Quote:
Turning the handlebars creates a centripetal force that causes the circular motion.
Turning the handlebars moves the tire contact patch, causing the bike+rider to lean in the opposite direction.

I have no input on what you are saying here but it has nothing to do with what I said.

Quote:
End of story.
Apparently not.

Yes. It is the end of the story. Bicycles are not some strange physics phenomenon. It is just Newtonian physics. Sorry

seypat

Well, If it had been a rabbit instead of a snake, I would have bunny hopped it!

I know, don't quit my day job.

tomato coupe

If it was a rabbit, it would have bitten you. Oops, that's not right.

terrymorse 

You didn't specify the conditions. Leaning the bike without restricting handlebar movement will cause the bars to turn. Of course, leaning the bike, while the rider prevents the handlebars from turning in the direction of the lean, will make you fall. But I must say, that's a pretty silly condition. Nobody does that.

We are not saying the same thing at all. The height of the center of gravity is of minimal importance. I can lower my center of gravity by putting my chest on the handlebar stem, or raise it by standing on the pedals. But that does very little to affect stability. Steering affects stability.

The primary way to maintain balance is to steer so that the vector sum of the gravity force, and the centrifugal force from the turn, point from the center of mass to the contact patch.

Quote:

Bicycles are not some strange physics phenomenon. It is just Newtonian physics. Sorry

The physics is simple, on that we agree. Yet apparently, that simple physics is difficult to describe.

sacr

I haven't read every post above, some of them perhaps describe the correct aspect, some mixed with myths handed down from one motorcycle instructor to the next and so on.
One thing to get one's head around first, riding a bicycle is constantly reacting to a loss of balance situation.

As we lose balance to one side we turn the wheel to accelerate the bicycle in the same direction, basically arresting the fall. Try riding a bicycle with the front wheel lashed so it can't turn, you wont get 5 yards before hitting the deck.
Of course years ago they worked out that to have the forks set so that if the bike leaned left, it would make the front wheel turn left as well, so riding no hands is a function that can be done.

"Countersteering", its just describing what happens when one loses balance to either side, either deliberately or by accident. If you are travelling straight and the front wheel is jerked to the right, the bicycle moves from under you(yourself going straight ahead and now on the left side of the bike.....falling, the only way to recover it is to turn the wheel left to stop the fall. Riding a bike very slowly is a constant sequence of these moves.

And of course if one shifts one balance inwards as the wheel is turned in the same direction a turn can be done without counter steering.

njkayaker

???

It's not like a definition of countersteering doesn't exist. Why are people making other definitions up?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

sacr

.....because "countersteering" is just a "made up" term and could mean anything, just like the example you quoted from wiki, which is just one interpretation. Personally, I like my very concise description of what is being described as "countersteering" and thought it may be useful to clear the air a little here, by all means alert the mods if you think that is a problem.

njkayaker

???

The definition from the wiki is the definition that is generally used (it's not "one interpretation").

Making up private definitions for fairly-commonly used terms doesn't "clear the air" at all (it just confuses things).

Bizarre. People are just supposed to agree with your "made up" definition?