WhyFi

I know.

I've been riding discs for five or six years, now. Similarly, many others have ridden discs long enough to a) figure out whether there was any substance behind the marketing and b) make an informed decision on their next purchase. Since my first road disc bike, I have had plenty of opportunities to go back. Instead, I've bought two more disc bikes. My experience is not unique; it seems to be par for the course.

Again, money-lovin' Big Bike would gladly take the piles of rim brake money if customers were throwing it at them, but they're not.

PeteHski

I'm talking strictly about high end hydraulic disc brakes. Cable-actuated discs don't really do it for me, although I know they can work reasonably well.

tomato coupe

Apparently, that's just not possible.

Broctoon

Ah, I see.

If I could afford a high end road bike with high end hydro brakes, I might be sold. All my stuff is mid-range. Tektro, 105, some Ultegra, a few Dura Ace bits here and there. (I've had a lot of Frankenbikes.) The only true road bike I currently own is set up with a complete Campy Centaur 11 speed group. (2018 model year, I think.) It has excellent rim brakes.

Sy Reene

The degree to which disc brakes are better than rim brakes, is not important to the manufacturers. To the manufacturers, a large part of their impetus is that they needed to have something on the bike that was of a significant enough difference to make someone want to get a new bike. I suspect the bike makers were starting to realize that they'd soon hit a wall on just selling more gears. If you have a 6yr old rim bike, out of aero shaped carbon fiber, why would you want a new aero shaped carbon fiber rim-braked bike. And, not sure if by itself the disc brake appeal would have been successful, so hand-in-hand with disc brakes, came along the notion that you can get a more comfortable ride with wider tires, which disc brakes can accommodate.

Disc brakes have been a huge boon for the road bike industry as a whole. It has led to new wheel designs, enabled more tubeless tire viability which price higher than nonTL, sealant sale increases, brake pad sale increases, and creates more maintenance income for bike shops. And all of this together also adds up to reasons to get consumers to buy an upgraded bike. It's just business.

Broctoon

This thread is turning into a very interesting discussion/debate on marketing...

- Push vs. pull, or influence of the demand vs. supply side of the retail economy. Kind of a chicken or egg question, both sides of which I believe have an influence. An interplay would be a better term.

It's interesting to me because I love bikes. I also love technology, although I'm usually not an early adopter. But also:
- It's a segment that is somewhat niche (compared to say, cars, or soda pop... something bought by nearly every household in the U.S.), and yet is worth at least $1B, in my estimation
- Also a segment that's seen a lot of innovation in recent years, though not changing as rapidly as some other products. In other words, positioned somewhere between flower pots and smart phones in terms of technical progression.

I'll continue thinking about this, like do we buy new bike tech because they convince us we need it, or because we actually do, or we just sort of want it? And do they develop it because we insist, or only because their competitors will, so they have to keep up?

Kimmo 

It depends on the individual. If everyone was like me, the marketing industry would barely exist, and wouldn't trade in psychological warfare, but most people aren't smart enough to despise the marketing industry.

WhyFi

Brb - gotta don my Ultegra-level hip waders.

Symox

I could see it happening, as well as 2x and 3x drivetrains returning. Why? They are elegant solutions - direct mount rim brakes are plenty good for just about anyone road riding up to 32 ish tires and front derailleurs will always give more gears than without.

having said that, unless A high profile rider brings these technologies back in fashion, I don’t think the general public is brave enough to set it’s own trends

Doomrider74

You don't have to "despise" the marking industry at all, and doing so isn't a sign of intelligence, either (I'd argue quite the opposite). It just takes a bit of critical thinking.

Personally, I know what works for me, and largely stick to it. Is there a placebo effect with some stuff? Possibly, but a placebo effect is still an effect, and if its for the better, then go with it.

PeteHski

It’s just engineering development. Road bike development was moving at a snail’s pace until fairly recently. 25 years ago it was still a cottage industry. Now it has become more of a mainstream tech industry with professional engineers and industrial designers. The move to disc brakes became as inevitable as the move to carbon frames and wheels. For those who still prefer the low tech approach there are plenty of small custom builders out there.

PeteHski

You only need to despise marketing if you are NOT smart enough.

Kimmo 

I reckon it'd be sweet to see a bike with direct mount rim brakes and through axles, but it'll never happen since the necessary hubs would be way too niche...

Old fish swims past a couple of young fish, and goes, hi, the water's nice today. One young fish says to the other, what the hell is water?

Kimmo 

Right, sure. Commercial radio isn't a cacophonic cesspit, and community radio isn't a vital refuge from pervasive capitalist propaganda, got it.

Scumbags trying to manipulate me via my amygdala are only doing their totally necessary job and don't deserve a special circle in hell, thanks for clearing that up.

tomato coupe

Oh my ...

Kimmo 

How's the water today?

tomato coupe

Pretty agitated, apparently.

zymphad

I suppose that is true, but I've noticed some of the new lightweight, traditional road bikes (non-endurance) have started to add more aero features, was why I was checking them out when I was buying new shoes. I do agree overall it seems the frame designers have hit a roadblock, the only real major difference I see between Tarmac 6 and 7 is the bladed fork which well... my bike already has including that half foil shaped seat tube... And honestly can't tell difference between a Trek Emonda generation 1 and the current generation. Which is why I'm hoping the designers will eventually go back to rim claiming rim brakes are lighter and more aero, which is true!

What I really want is a Cervelo R Series but with maybe more relaxed rear seat stays, like the current fad that Specialized, Trek, Cannondale etc started copying BMC. The only difference I see between the current gen R series and past is that they had to change the MORE AERO bladed fork to less aero to adjust for disc brakes. More I look at the R series vs the 2017 R5, it seems that's the only difference... So for a Cervelo R series fan, the only reason to upgrade would be the disc brakes, and get a downgrade in the fork, as the rim version is ironically better.

CliffordK

I agree.

At this point the "Direct Mount" brakes are stuck in the cheap MTBs, and the expensive TT/Tri bikes. And, they may well remain in those two categories for quite some time.

In a sense, the center pivot brakes of yesteryear were very similar to direct mount brakes. And our current dual pivot brakes could probably be redesigned to be direct mounted, but I don't think there is the demand.

zymphad

Well I was doing a hill climb loop I like to do today, cause I suck at hills, yeah I heard someone's disc brakes squealing ahead of me and sure enough he had to get off to fix them... And there was some sort of charity ride last week and riding past them, sure enough noticed one pack was waiting for some woman to adjust, who's disc brake was making a raucous. I really want rim brakes to stay.

I keep being told disc brakes don't make noise, it's just they weren't properly installed blah blah blah. But I keep seeing people tinkering with their disc brakes on the side of the road... So I dunno. /shrug

CliffordK

I can't imagine a rim brake ever squealing.

zymphad

You really don't think the bike shops didn't push them? I was at a shop and clueless cyclist was being only shown Di2 and eTap bikes... Disc brake bikes were more expensive and they still are, I kinda see a connection here.
- You really don't think the plethora of marketing didn't help?
- I mean the pros outright admitted the only reason they road disc was because they were told to for a while. Now it is the norm on the Tour, but you don't think that didn't influence?
Sure seemed like it was shoved down our throats to me, endlessly bombarded by all the exaggerated marketing from the brands, the sales people, the pro cycling (we all see cyclist riding bikes a certain way cause pros do it even if it's clearly painful for them).

The road is filled with people on 5K-10K bikes but look they haven't even been properly fitted to their bike. So I don't really think people CHOSE as much as they were persuaded and influenced.

One of my favorite things to do at my job, I get lot of opportunity to people watch, is see all the folks ride by on some really impressive gear, but gear clearly far too big or too small. My theory is that when customer is told shop can't get a bike in their size until 8-12 months they buy whatever is in stock even if it's wrong size.

PeteHski

Designers are actually finding that disc brakes are marginally more aero than rim brakes. So now starting to see more disc brake TT bikes at the top level. Weight is still higher, but they can still make the UCI min weight regardless.

zymphad

Sure they are. Just like they said certain frame design like that headtube remember was wider at the bottom than top increased rigidity, and now well no one does that? And well they ALL did that just 5 years ago? Also don't see how that is possible, but I guess my tiny brain can't get over how giant disc brakes are more aero than tiny rim brakes. Oh I forgot, maybe the tiniest less curve because of brake on the wheels is less aero than having a chunky disc brake... Right... That's why so many people are still raiding wheels that are only 20mm deep, cause they were saying how much aero 40mm was and everyone should ride it, and just like how 28mm was actually faster than 25mm but every road bike I saw in the shop were 25mm. So, I've started to think the bike marketing is mostly nonsense to get people to upgrade.

Hell I remember how Cervelo one year why they increased the height of the BB and shortened their chain stay... and then they changed it back to how it was before because it was better... And then I remember how bladed forks were all the rage and now I see the new more AERO road bikes don't have bladed forks. And then I remember how Cannondale made a big deal about their 25mm seat-tube and now they are back to 27mm... so.

I also remember how the TT bikes were kinda bulky rounded tubes... Then they became blades cause more aero. But now they are back to being more bulky rounded oval tubes cause more aero. Wait what... ?!?!?

CliffordK

It has been a while since I've heard rim brakes squeal, but there are times that they will squeal like a stuck pig.

I imagine that stiffer calipers and better pads help reduce the squealing.

Keep in mind that what I consider road/Tri/TT direct mount brakes are not center mounted, but are a unique beast with two posts.



With road generally mounting from above, and MTB/cross/gravel mounting from below.