canam73

If you were being honest about that you never would have posted in this thread.

And you can buy an effective set of aerobars for less than $100.

Excelsius

The discussion has turned into aero bars vs wheels. I will definitely get aero bars, so that’s settled. Also, from theoretical point of view, there is enough evidence to show that aero bars provide much more improvement than wheels (including roadwarrior’s own posted article). Though what really amazes me is that a skin suit tops even the aero bar, though they’re close. This makes sense since we forget that our bodies provide the largest surface area against the wind. This means that I should get a skin suit as well as an aero bar. Now I don’t want to spend too much on skin suits, so any recommendations would be helpful. Voler seems sort of reasonable at $90, but cheaper would be better. There are also these Tri-Suits, but I want to avoid them since I can’t use them for my usual rides outside of the triathlon without looking like a tool. These two upgrades will run me around $200, unless I rent aero bars instead. I will also cover some/all of the vents on my helmet with tape.

Now back to the original question about wheels. There is a lot of discussion about weight, but the reality from physics is that weight has no effect whatsoever unless 1. climbing/going downhill or 2.accelerating. RS10s weigh at 1848g or ~4 lbs. Soul S3SL is 1400g (3 lbs), more than a pound lighter. On the other hand, S4 is almost the same weight as RS10 at 1760g. There are two questions here: assuming a regular ride with hills and flats, what is the benefit of 30mm vs 40mm + ~1lbs? It seems to me that S3SL is the ideal balance between weight and aero. Any discussions about weight seem moot, especially given that each of our 32oz water bottles weigh over 2lbs, i.e., more than our wheels. The weight distribution on the wheel also matters a lot. If most of the weight is only in the hubs, then the effect is less, but if it’s in the rim, then we also have to deal with rotational acceleration. Anyone has any data on this distribution?

I won’t deny the cool factor of nice wheels, but I am also not someone who would buy something only for that reason. The data show that the aero wheels can save me 20-60 seconds on an average ride. The extra motivation to ride + placebo effect can be nice as well. Now that this is out of the way, maybe what roadwarrior is getting at is that higher quality wheels provide an overall better riding experience and are easier on the body. Therefore, from qualitative point of view, would you guys not agree that the S3SL will provide a palpably better riding experience than the RS10? We’d need someone who has experience with both lower and higher end wheels, on the same bike. My bike is already pretty stiff aluminum and I’d welcome any breaks I can get from a wheel upgrade. Durability is still very important for me, but I presume Souls will deliver in that arena as well, given their reputation.

Velo Gator

I've never seen a draft legal tri here in the states. And with the exception of the Clearwater 70.3 HIM championships, never seen a draft pack in a tri. Local tris are spread out due to ability, and bigger races are more spread out due to distance and wave starts. 300 people all coming out of the water at once? I doubt it.

Ultraslide

I went from 2 kilo stock Bontrager wheels to Hed Ardennes on the same bike. Very slight aero gains but saved around 600 grams in weight. I could certainly feel the difference in accelerations. The bike seemed more responsive. I can't say that translated into much speed. My times across the same courses show the same rate of improvement, and that's something else to consider ... As you get fit on the bike you will make more noticeable gains early on, this is also the time when you are doing most of your equipment upgrading, so I am always careful not to mistake equipment gain for fitness gain. When I upgraded my bike, with the same HED's I noticed a huge improvement, but that was after losing another 4 pounds of bike weight, getting a lower position and looking cooler ; )

canam73

What is your primary riding like? Buy new wheels for that, not the occasional tri. Unless you are going a 50mm(+) rim there won't be much difference in TT times. Rough ride issues are best handled through tires. If you want to address that then get some 23mm rims (Boyd Vitesse, November FS23, HED ardennes) so you can lower your PSI a little. Or run 25mm tires and do the same.

tfro

I was actually falling for the joke for a while. This has shown that you're just messing with us, you're doing a splendid job of making us all think you're an idiot.

mazdaspeed

Shimano wheels typically do well for what they are in aerodynamic tests. For purely TT purposes getting wheels that will provide big aero benefits will set you back easily $1000-2000. Better wheels will make all around riding better but it's not a cost effective upgrade for time trialing versus getting a rear disc cover for the existing wheel. Also like others mentioned getting good tires is a must.

KoolAidnPizza

Sounds like a likely candidate for eBay carbon wheels... If your doing tri's, aero trumps weight. You seem to not pick up on the fact that 2xx grams can be gained or lost in diet, and you don't frequently hear- I had a huge breakfast before my race and it slowed me down about 1 minuite. More frequently you will hear a triathlete saying they picked the wrong wheelset for the course. 50, 60, and 80mm wheels will give you a substantial aero gain (second to aero bars), and I promise that the weight will not be a problem (around 16xx g). When you see that a "skinsuit" saves 1-2 minuites in a tr. You are looking at professionally designed and fitted suits, although tight fitting gear will save you substantial time, it will not be this substantial. For te record I have 58mm wheels on my bike- I would strongly suggest a deeper wheel to a lighter one, aswell as aero bars, which make a huge difference too. I also do triathlons so I have some background here.

Excelsius

My usual rides are 60-90 mile hilly rides. Soul S3 should work nicely for this, realizing that the heavier S4 would be better for the flat triathlon. Another wheelset, but again heavier, is Williams System 30. As mentioned in my previous post, I do not understand the point of buying wheels that are heavier, have less aero rims, and are close in price (Vitesse) or worse, more expensive (Ardennes) than another wheelset of pretty much equal build quality that is lighter and more aero (Souls). I don't know how much 4mm extra rim width will add to the comfort of the ride, but it will add to the rolling resistance. There has to be more to the feel of the wheel than just the rim width. By the same analogy, I could lower the PSI in my current rims from 120 to 100 and get a more comfortable ride, but I'd rather get that feel from the quality of the wheel itself.

Excelsius

I do realize that. My problem is limited budget. If I can have only one wheelset and if most of my riding is on hilly group rides, it seemed that S3 was more of the right choice. On the other hand, I realize how crazy it is to care for small difference in weight given that our water bottles alone weigh 4 pounds. Maybe I should just get the S4 and suck up the extra ~pound of weight on the hill rides. And getting carbon from ebay would raise concerns about quality. If the wheel fails while I'm going downhill at 50mph+ on my usual rides, it's not worth it. Just never know with that stuff from China. Some of it is great. A lot of it is not.

canam73

I'd suggest you do some more research on how wheels and rim depth affect ride quality before making any decisions. Also look at PSI, rolling resistance and ride quality. You may change some of your opinions.

Excelsius

It's not that easy to locate unbiased information that is based only on scientific data. You are likely much more experienced than I am in this sport and if you have links to any articles or specific knowledge that I could look up, that would be very helpful. Typing "rim depth ride quality" in google doesn't help much.

DaveWC

I don't know about that. I just googled "bicycle wheels rim depth" and came up with these two links that might help you...

https://triathlon.competitor.com/2009...rim-depth_4199

https://www.biketechreview.com/review...bicycle-wheels

hhnngg1

I guarantee you'll look far more like a tool when you show up to the local group ride in a supertight skin suit versus normal cycling clothes.

Tons of people wear sleeveless tri-suits or similar appearing clothes on the bike. Nothing tool about it. Skin suit though - that's full on tool action. In fat, I have NEVER EVER seen a skinsuit show up at a local group ride, ever, and I'd love to hear from folks who have seen such a thing.

Backdoor brag as well - I showed up to a local triathlon group ride once in my racing outfit (triathlon sleeveless) which I typically reserve for race day. It's a mellow ride that I used as a recovery, since it's one of the few regular rides where a good number of ladies actually showed up. After that ride, I typically go home alone after chitchatting with the dudes. Well, on that day, it was too bad I'm a family man, because I got 'chatted up' by several of the younger girls who never even batted an eye at me previously and even invited to a party later in the day. (I sadly declined.) I'm still certain that it's because of the trisuit exposure - no other explanation I can think of. (helps to have a good tan and not be overweight.)

Velo Gator

I saw you there!

hhnngg1

Heh heh. Not me. I'm more buff than that

canam73

Read back. His skin suit is meant for race day.

But he's looking for a single wheel upgrade to cover his regular hilly group ride and the occasional tri.

canam73

I completely agree. Most of the available studies are done by the wheel manufacturers. Or by a magazine that at the very least needs to keep the industry pumped up and advertisers happy.

So you need to apply some common sense to what they say and hopefully add in some user feedback. Eventually you will have enough of your own experience to be able to figure out what applies to your situation.

I'll post some links in a bit, but what I was getting at (and this is my opinions/conclusions) is that 120psi sounds high unless you are heavy. In controlled tests with flat rollers that will give better rolling resistance, but on real world roads it causes small hops and chatter which hurts your RR. At a little lower pressure a tire is able to absorb small bumps with out bouncing and gives a lower RR. Not to mention giving a much better, less fatiguing ride. The 23mm wide rims help with this by allowing the same size tire to enclose a larger air volume which gives better pneumatic absorbtion of bumps and additionally helps prevent pinch flats at lower psi. This can really come in handy when cornering on rough or dirty roads and is my main reason for liking them. The straighter sidewall profile of the tire when mounted on a wider rim is also supposed to aid handling by reducing tire roll in corners.

Matching the rim width to the tire width is also said to give a smoother aero profile compared to the lightbulb shaped cross section of a 23mm tire on a 19mm rim, but I'm guessing the difference on 25-30mm deep rims is pretty minimal. But at the least it isn't going to hurt you.

And last, deep rims. And I mainly bring this up because you mentioned your bike having a somewhat harsh ride. All other things being equal, a deeper rim will deflect less and transmit more vibration. Now, again proper tire choice and inflation can do more to mitigate this than rim choice, but be aware that going to a 40mm+ rimmed wheel is as likely to cause a rougher ride as not. And as linked in one of DaveWC's articles, deeper rims can be a handful in windy conditions. That is actually the reason I don't like them for everyday wheels if you ride a lot of hills: it is often windy at elevation and I much prefer descending with a low profile rim.

Edit: And here is a tip for free that will improve your tri times more than any bike upgrade: practice your transitions. And not just a dry run, actually do a swim and give the change a go when you are wet and shaky tired. I don't take my tri's so seriously and don't practice and every time I have literally had double the total transition time as the finishers around me. So if you care about your placing, get this part right.

Dalai

Why only one wheelset? Keep the RS10's you already own training on the hilly rides and go as deep as you can (weight aside) for racing and flatter rides!

Plus fit the aerobars, train in them and also as suggested look at buying a disc wheel cover for the back wheel. Covers have tested just as fast as a regular disc, just without the cool disc sound.

If you want a better road feel - buy the highest TPI tyres you can afford!

@roadwarrior - comparing local triathletes to pros from the 70's, many of whom were juiced to the eyeballs isn't really a sensible comparison...

Also the OP has a budget of around $500, waxing lyrically about $2000 wheels hubs is really pointless!

Tri's are rarely draft legal, mostly start in waves (except IM) and at least here are regularly patrolled with draft busters on motorbikes and dish out time penalties for drafters.

StanSeven

I suppose that swollen head is a big disadvantage in the swim not to mention the aero drag on the bike

Lexi01

Aaaahhhmmm...oh, nevermind.