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1953 'Woodsie' John Finley Scott tribute project

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1953 'Woodsie' John Finley Scott tribute project

Old 02-23-20, 05:06 PM
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1953 'Woodsie' John Finley Scott tribute project

As if I don't have enough to do these days and plenty of bike builds, I've long wanted to build a legit era klunker though something having soul, a statement of what and whys, American origin of the coined mountain bike.

I'm not interested in discussing who really invented mountain bikes or whatever. C'mon now- people were riding dirt paths the moment the first bicycle was made. Argument over, done.

Moving forth, an inductee to the MTB Hall of Fame, the late John Finley Scott created his Woodsie Bike apparently in 1953 and from a Schwinn World diamond frameset. Recognized for many contributions, one significantly was his helping Fisher and company 'launch off the ground', supplying TA cranks, etc.. Hopefully Repack can pipe in.




Beastly heavy the frame is, it has the right bones and looks very advanced for any off-road purpose bike of that era.

For me, the un-built frame is already cherished and good enough as well art. Chicago legendary badazz of pipe beating back alley ratrod material.

Serial number deciphers as built in 1953. I certainly don't have the specifics of Mr. Scott's build and appreciate others input. My guess it was fitted with 650B French wheels, a 3 speed IGH and 3 speed cog with fork fingered changer derailleur.

Edit and addition: Being the only photo of the Woodsie is black and white, and although this tribute build is green it would be nice to know of the original finish.







Last edited by crank_addict; 02-24-20 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 02-23-20, 06:10 PM
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Exciting project. I'll follow along.
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Old 02-23-20, 06:15 PM
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Neat project. Why 650b and not 26 inch? These bikes came stock with 26 inch right? I'd be tempted to use 26 inch CR 18 rims.
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Old 02-23-20, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bikemig
Neat project. Why 650b and not 26 inch? These bikes came stock with 26 inch right? I'd be tempted to use 26 inch CR 18 rims.
You might be correct, and I've no definitive answer plus I always seem to do things the hard way. Ha

Frame can fit all sorts of size wheels. He had some fairly beefy and gnarly treads though the above pic is from unknown time~ could be from an 1980's era with available 26 in. rubber of that time. Or maybe not and rather its 650B French setup which was available back when.

From very little info and image, what hub did this Woodsie have? It appears to have a cable leading to a IGH, no rear brake cable, so was it a coaster type? I can see the derailleur adaption with probably a Cyclo 3 speed cog.

I have the stock Schwinn crank and may use it. Can replicate the chainring without much difficulty and get pretty close to the gearing depicted in that image.

Regardless of size, I'm not interested in modern replacements. I want the soul of the Woodsie Bike the way he built and experienced it. Be it brutal steel rims, I'm game. Galvi spokes are a bonus. ;")

The frame alone weighs what three bikes combined are, so I don't care about modern pieces with all their miracle alloys. Need to determine stem and what he used for that 'flat bar'. Just look at the stance of this thing!
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Old 02-23-20, 10:17 PM
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Rear tire looks like it could be a Schwinn Tractor tire 26x 2.125”
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Old 02-23-20, 10:18 PM
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I have a New World I have been sitting on
earlier with a cottered bottom bracket
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Old 02-24-20, 11:19 AM
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The skinny on 650B
Quote by Tom Ritchey

Ritchey recalls how Finley would yell, “I hate you, Ritchey!” every time he saw Tom. The greeting was probably in jest, since they talked frequently over the years. Ritchey says Scott kept telling him to build a 650b bike for the dirt trails they both liked to ride. After years of Scott’s bad- gering, Ritchey finally built a 650b bike, completing it in 1977, the same year Joe Breeze built his famous Breezer “Number One.” Whose bike was completed first? No one can say for sure, but Tom says he’d already built his first 650b bike when he saw his first Breezer.

After building mountain bikes with both 650b and 26-inch wheels, Ritchey was convinced that 650b was the better size. Unfortunately, the Marin riders demanded bikes with 26-inch wheels in those days. Ritchey made 10 more of his 650b mountain bikes in 1979, but the Marin crowd didn’t want them, so he sold most of them to John Finley Scott, who purchased the Cupertino Bike Shop in January 1981.

Source:
https://electricbikeaction.com/amp/w...res-his-story/
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Old 02-24-20, 11:32 AM
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Regarding the drive hub and brake-
Quote Vance Sprock, owner of Cupertino Bike Shop

The UC Davis sociology professor “invented” the modern mountain bike in 1953, using a Sturmey Archer geared hub, flat handlebars, cantilever brakes, and fat tires tacked on to a heavy around-town bike frame.

Source:
https://rayhosler.com/tag/john-finley-scott/

-------


After zooming in on a fuzzy picture, it appears a Cyclo 3 cog block was affixed to the Sturmey Archer 3 speed hub with drum brake.

Most interesting, and its possible he used a chain tensioner sans derailleur for changing gears. I guess one would stop, reach down to the greasy apparatus, slacken the spring loaded tensioner, lift chain to cog selection, release tensioner and off you go.


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Old 02-24-20, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage
Rear tire looks like it could be a Schwinn Tractor tire 26x 2.125”
Would this be a tire used in the 1950s for 'balloon type's cruisers? Likely then would be a specific Schwinn 26 inch rim.

Originally Posted by repechage
I have a New World I have been sitting on
earlier with a cottered bottom bracket
My first though would be going with a cottered crank however the pic shows the one piece. Will follow much as possible to that image and hopefully configure a chainring that resembles as well. Guessing its 40 - 42t.

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Old 02-24-20, 03:44 PM
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Very cool. And some interesting history. I'll also follow along for this one
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Old 02-24-20, 04:23 PM
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John was the ONLY investor in MountainBikes. He had bought $2500 of TA chainsets, which he donated to us on a handshake and "pay me when you can." When Gary and I composed our first catalog in 1979, I typed it on John's $13,000 HP "word processor" which was the size of a large office desk and used 64k floppy discs the size of an LP record.

John supplied the famous double decker bus for our expedition to Victor Vincente of America's "Reseda to the Sea" race in 1980. Amusing story about how we drove off in his bus and left him behind. It's in my book.



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Old 02-24-20, 04:57 PM
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Awesome tribute. I had not heard of John Finley Scott until I watched the Shimano promotional video posted here a month or so ago, containing excerpts from Klunkerz. I just bought the full movie and watched it last week. John was definitely one of those "accidental trailblazers". Now I have to watch it again, to look for more stills of his bike (well, that'll be my excuse anyway).

I'll bet you're right about the triple freewheel. So he had, in effect, three operating ranges of three speeds each. Not the best for ground clearance....

Have you scored a horn yet?
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Old 02-24-20, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by madpogue
Awesome tribute. I had not heard of John Finley Scott until I watched the Shimano promotional video posted here a month or so ago, containing excerpts from Klunkerz. I just bought the full movie and watched it last week. John was definitely one of those "accidental trailblazers". Now I have to watch it again, to look for more stills of his bike (well, that'll be my excuse anyway).

I'll bet you're right about the triple freewheel. So he had, in effect, three operating ranges of three speeds each. Not the best for ground clearance....

Have you scored a horn yet?
Klunkerz is available on Amazon prime. I know what I'm watching tonight!
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Old 02-27-20, 07:45 AM
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Well, the decision is made for hubs and gearing, though with slightly breaking with my original intention. Thanks to Mister Billy Savage, (writer, producer and director of Klunkerz), he interviewed the late John Finley Scott whom discussed the setup and issues of the Woodsie.

Paying attention bikey class time listening to Prof. Finley Scott, the 4 speed IGH Sturmey with coaster brake juz ain't gonna happen. Not only did they lack durability and snapped axles routine as peanut shells, the brake design is especially poor- next to non usefulness.

I'm not going to say my choice of a Sturmey S3C three speed is far more reliable, though confident it will be fine for this bikes limited use. More importantly, the brake design is much better.

According to the interview, he threaded auxiliary cogs to the SA four speed hub.

For this tribute build and if unable to find the auxiliary Cyclo three speed cog, I may use three single BMX type 3 pin type and weld the outer two together, and yet still use the snap ring retainer.

Have yet to configure the chain idler / tensioner but it will resemble the original.

The interview also settled the choice of wheel and tire size. Steel old Schwinn like balloon 26 inch, drop center single wall- unpainted. Tire size 26 x 2.125 and as he stated "mean looking in all black". Haha

Front hub may not be exact to the image but its a way cool super tall flange 1940's era Schwinn. I think it'll match the look of the rear.

(credit to William Savage)

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Old 02-27-20, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by crank_addict
I may use three single BMX type 3 pin type and weld the outer two together, and yet still use the snap ring retainer.
I'm imagining John smiling in approval (or at least not frowning in disapproval...).
(credit to William Savage)
I must say, the bonus clips on the Klunkerz DVD, including this one, were a lot of fun.
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Old 02-28-20, 11:48 AM
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Source: dated Sept 24, 2008
Triple Crankset: The Late Professor JF Scott to be Inducted to Mountain Bike Hall of Fame at Interbike

Way Ahead of His Time
To get an idea of how far ahead Prof. Scott was, take a look at the images below. The 'Cow-Trailing' bicycle drawing, completed in 1953, basically outlines the carbon fiber cross country bikes that wouldn't come along for another 40 years...and check out that parts spec! This illustration was found on his property by Vance Sprock of the Cupertino Bike Shop, after Finley's passing.


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Old 02-28-20, 12:46 PM
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If you blow the image way up, there're a few "prescient" words you can just make out:
Fiberglass - he even imagined fiberglass cranks/rims
Odometer
"Drilled" pedals - early drillium

This one has a better-placed tensioner as well
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Old 02-28-20, 01:06 PM
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^ Yes indeed. As a young man and dreaming, that same year the miracle material fiberglass made it big with Corvette and soon after, Devin and other autos so I could see how his 'wheel's were turning.

I'm looking at other details from his drawing and only pic of the Woodsie. Such as the diamond frame selection but also the stem and angle.

Any idea on what stem or further thought of handlebar? Mentions Elswick short track bars. Something I'm not familiar with. I want to make the tribute bike fairly close to his original and thinking.

Saddle is a springer Brooks B73.

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Old 02-28-20, 01:35 PM
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^^^^^ If you squint just right, that almost looks like a threadless stem.

Not-so-thumbnail-ish version:

Just noticed the red text. My mom had an old Royal, you could flip a lever or hold another key or something, and the red strip of the ink ribbon would kick in as you typed. Such advanced technology.
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Old 02-28-20, 01:53 PM
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"Designed by J.F. Scott and nicely too"
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Old 02-28-20, 03:48 PM
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Gary Fisher and I made sure John got a mention in our 1981 catalog. John owned stock in "Sir Speedy" instant printing and requested that we use them. Probably could have had nicer images.


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Old 02-28-20, 10:30 PM
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I like the motorcycle style brake levers, having the Shimano 4-finger equivalents on my own mountain bike. I can brake from the handlebar extensions with my 4th and 5th fingers.
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Old 02-28-20, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Repack Rider
Probably could have had nicer images.
Awesome treasures.
As always, a huge thanks for your devotion, preserving this history and digging into your archives. Fun reading as well about your early publication techniques, layouts cut and paste, amazing photo's (example: China wall promo), the coined naming, etc., etc...

Ps. On another matter, I've yet confirmed going forth with a planned C&V Mountain Bike extravaganza event in S. Wis. but if a go, it would be terrific having you as special guest.
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Old 02-29-20, 03:48 AM
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Very interesting project. Love the history. Will be following this build for sure. Thanks for sharing this project.
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Old 02-29-20, 07:08 AM
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Hmmm... I've got this old Hawthorne. I wonder if it would be worthwhile to consider klunkerizing. I certainly have no use for it in its current form.
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