Lightweight Square Taper BB
12-23-18, 10:40 AM
#51
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one of the main issues with using a vintage crank. This is why I chose the dura ace 7400, because the 7400 bb’s are still plentiful. You are correct that this crank is ISO not JIS. Both the road double and the track single, are 144bcd. The track used a 109mm spindle and the road used a rather odd 113.5mm spindle. 125 seems way too long and is certainly not the original spindle length. Any 68mm asymmetrical ISO 109mm spindle should be perfect for setting it up as a single speed or fixed. For maintaining clearence for and inner chainring and an outer bash guard as you have yours setup, a 68mm asymmetrical 111 or 112mm ISO spindle should be what you want. I just have no idea how a 125mm spindle came to be used. My DA 7400 crank uses the original asymmetrical 112mm spindle. Setup as a singlespeed I have a chainline at the outer position of 46mm and 41 at the inner chainring position. With a 111 or 112 mm spindle you should end up with similar at the outer and inner positions.
most 70s and 80s higher end square taper cranksets used similar spindle lengths. Typically 109mm for a track and 112-113 for a road double. Only use I could see for 125 would be for a touring triple setup.
Thanks seamuis!
12-23-18, 11:50 AM
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If it lands in the middle, as above, then go ahead and check the chainline.
12-23-18, 08:07 PM
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Yeah, I know they have the same taper and will work if you don't gorilla torque the crank down, but I'd just rather not push it. There's time, it's not exactly great riding weather this time of year anyway.
Last edited by 1speed4me; 12-23-18 at 08:07 PM. Reason: whoops
12-23-18, 08:59 PM
#54
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Interesting read in this thread. I have an 81 original Voyageur 11.8 coming soon and enjoyed seeing your take on this bike. I will run it as a full geared machine but think your version is quite good. Love Schwinns as well and find myself snapping them up at a faster rate these days.
Good luck with your search and build. Keep the thread going with the progress.
Good luck with your search and build. Keep the thread going with the progress.
12-23-18, 11:28 PM
#55
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Having read through this thread, I am puzzled by the bottom bracket length. I have always understood what is needed is a straight chainline. If you have a 120 OLD rear wheel, the chainline will probably be around 43mm. Then the distance from the center of the seatpost to the middle of the chainring would also be 43 mm. I would be surprised if a BB spindle greater than 107 mm would work. Stripped down as yours is I would think it would be around 22 lbs or less, hardly a porker. I think it is a very nice bike. BTW., the late great Sheldon said an ISO crank arm will work fine on a JIS spindle and I have found it so as well, although JIS on ISO spindle not so much.
12-24-18, 04:44 AM
#56
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J
we all know the taper angle is supposed to be 2 degrees, and that technically they should all mate up just fine. But we’ve also all heard about proprietary tapers used by shimano and campagnolo in the past. In my experience it works MOST of the time. But for me, I once experiemented putting a late 70s campagnolo gran sport crank on a JIS shimano spindle and it never mounted proper. Could have been that taper on the crank was off. (Tourquing down a crank can certainly damage the taper) But it ended up causing the spindle to rust because water got between the crank and the spindle. This caused the crank to get stuck and I ended up damaging the crank trying to remove it. My point here is that with vintage, pre-used cranks, you can’t guarantee that the taper on your crank isn’t damaged, which can cause fitment issues, regardless of the spindle taper you choose. It can be a real crap shoot, basically.
Anyone know if there is a tool that can check the taper on a crankarm for damage?
Having read through this thread, I am puzzled by the bottom bracket length. I have always understood what is needed is a straight chainline. If you have a 120 OLD rear wheel, the chainline will probably be around 43mm. Then the distance from the center of the seatpost to the middle of the chainring would also be 43 mm. I would be surprised if a BB spindle greater than 107 mm would work. Stripped down as yours is I would think it would be around 22 lbs or less, hardly a porker. I think it is a very nice bike. BTW., the late great Sheldon said an ISO crank arm will work fine on a JIS spindle and I have found it so as well, although JIS on ISO spindle not so much.
Anyone know if there is a tool that can check the taper on a crankarm for damage?
12-24-18, 08:55 AM
#57
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Guess I've been lucky...put Campy Nouvo Record, Avocet and a 2010 Brompton (Stronglite?) cranks on JIS spindles without problems.
12-26-18, 08:24 PM
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I happened to be driving by Performance Bike today and remembered that they are going out of business and everything was cheap. So I stopped in and found a Shimano UN-55 to test out for only $13. It doesn't specify JIS or ISO, so apparently it is one size fits all (that phrase always instills confidence in me). 113mm length. I don't really like how it feels when torquing the crank down, it just keeps going and going and you can't get a good feel for when enough is enough (I don't have a torque wrench in inch-pounds, either). It feels like I could keep tightening the thing down forever, and in my minds eye the ISO taper on my old crank is just getting smushed to oblivion... Eventually I did stop, removed the bolt to see what I expected, the spindle buried pretty far down and no where near bottoming out on the washer. So it doesn't look like it is tight (at least the fit doesn't look like my old JIS crank and JIS spindle did), and it doesn't feel like it is 100% tight either, but maybe it is, who knows.
Anyway, the 42t chain ring does have more room to the chain stay than my previous setup with a 40t did, but the chain line isn't great. I could use a few more mm's in spindle length to straighten it out. I was hoping to learn a little more from this trial but with the way the crank fit on the spindle I don't feel like I am any closer than I was. Any pearls of wisdom left out there? Thanks again.
Anyway, the 42t chain ring does have more room to the chain stay than my previous setup with a 40t did, but the chain line isn't great. I could use a few more mm's in spindle length to straighten it out. I was hoping to learn a little more from this trial but with the way the crank fit on the spindle I don't feel like I am any closer than I was. Any pearls of wisdom left out there? Thanks again.
12-27-18, 09:12 AM
#59
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All shimano UN cartridge bb’s are JIS.
12-27-18, 01:42 PM
#61
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Bb
a bit more up the price point and the cranks were held on to a hollow spindle with bolt and washer behind it
then came a bolt incorporating the flat washer and its hex socket used an 8mm 'allen' wrench to tighten it .. They work very well I'd go that way...
you can find a socket with an 8mm bit in it , to use a torque wrench to Know crank is on well , by the "how tight" numbers ...
12-27-18, 01:54 PM
#62
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Fwiw,
I don't recall if Sugino a company used to making JIS cranks used ISO to be like Campagnolo it was copying...
if so it would resemble drawing C in above posting..
....
if so it would resemble drawing C in above posting..
....
12-28-18, 03:23 AM
#63
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Sugino did and still does use ISO. If it’s a Sugino, you can pretty much guarantee it’s ISO, regardless of vintage or type.
12-28-18, 07:10 AM
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Recent production Mighty Comp. Single (I believe Road, too) and the various versions of XD/RD2 are JIS...
And FWIW...Sugino continues to warn that their ISO taper is not compatible with anybody else's, at the risk of loss of warranty
And FWIW...Sugino continues to warn that their ISO taper is not compatible with anybody else's, at the risk of loss of warranty
02-02-19, 02:20 PM
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Last week I finally got fed up with trying to figure this out on my own, so I handed it off to Wright Bros. here in Seattle that is owned by an older guy who still rides fixed. He is one of those guys who has forgotten more than I’ll ever know. Best shop I’ve found here. Anyway, he set me up with an Origin8 BB, he had to chase a one cut a few threads in the shell to make everything happy. It’s no top shelf BB but I’m just happy to have the bike up and running again. I really appreciate everyone’s help on here.
06-07-21, 11:25 AM
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Old thread but this may be of interest.
I put a nice, vintage Edco swiss made track crank on my Cannondale Capo. To test for spindle width I have some $ 30 bike shop specials I use to test with.
This set up needed a 118 mm to make it ridable but I was getting a close pass on my left crank arm, about 1.4 mm. I felt my chain line was good right where is was and did not want to go to 122 if I could avoid it.
On a friends advice I shucked out $90 for the Omni Racer Titanium 118 mm spindle BB, very light, (it saved just over 1/4 lb of weight ) and now (as my friend said it would)) the left crank arm rides 2.9 mm off the chainstay
Looking at the machining of the spindle it seems to ride a bit tighter and higher on the taper. Just to be sure I rode it 50 miles, tapped the crank arms in with a wooden block and hammer and retorqued the crank bolts, still the same clearance.
All good here now!
I put a nice, vintage Edco swiss made track crank on my Cannondale Capo. To test for spindle width I have some $ 30 bike shop specials I use to test with.
This set up needed a 118 mm to make it ridable but I was getting a close pass on my left crank arm, about 1.4 mm. I felt my chain line was good right where is was and did not want to go to 122 if I could avoid it.
On a friends advice I shucked out $90 for the Omni Racer Titanium 118 mm spindle BB, very light, (it saved just over 1/4 lb of weight ) and now (as my friend said it would)) the left crank arm rides 2.9 mm off the chainstay
Looking at the machining of the spindle it seems to ride a bit tighter and higher on the taper. Just to be sure I rode it 50 miles, tapped the crank arms in with a wooden block and hammer and retorqued the crank bolts, still the same clearance.
All good here now!
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06-07-21, 11:40 AM
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Considering the fact that "Loose Balls Rule" what about custom made titanium balls, cups, and spindle. Sure... Why not... If ya got the bucks...
Sometimes when I take a really good dump I wonder how much weight I am trimming off my next ride... sorry not to be rude.
You can really get carried away with the weight thing and manufacturers are perfectly willing to hipe the latest gram saving component.
Looks like you got the problem solved and by the way... NICE BIKE!!!!!
Sometimes when I take a really good dump I wonder how much weight I am trimming off my next ride... sorry not to be rude.
You can really get carried away with the weight thing and manufacturers are perfectly willing to hipe the latest gram saving component.
Looks like you got the problem solved and by the way... NICE BIKE!!!!!
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06-07-21, 03:25 PM
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Like some of us on these forums..I'm coming off a relatively expensive pastime ( Ducati and BMW motorcycling addiction) so good bicycle parts look pretty affordable to me at this point,
, that may fade
The weight thing is another deal, I like light weight things just for the sake of being light. It may make no sense but much of what most of us do makes no sense.
Hey, I'm not talking about my Ducks without tossing out a picture , my 999 Mono in red. This is as good as it gets in Ducatiland (at least I think so), pulling onto the interstate on this thing gets the juices going.
, that may fade
The weight thing is another deal, I like light weight things just for the sake of being light. It may make no sense but much of what most of us do makes no sense.
Hey, I'm not talking about my Ducks without tossing out a picture , my 999 Mono in red. This is as good as it gets in Ducatiland (at least I think so), pulling onto the interstate on this thing gets the juices going.
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06-08-21, 03:24 AM
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06-08-21, 04:42 AM
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Nice bikes FZ Yamahas, I've never heard of any breakdowns and they still have the look and feel just right. If anyone thinks they know what fast is they may have a new definition of the word after an hour on that FZ. I love the little belly pan on yours, sets it off nicely.
Maybe we need a motorcycle thread! After all , two wheels is two wheels and , with the popularity of electrics, the self powered thing is changing.
As weird as this sounds, I paid more for my Trek Di2 Carbon Domane , used, than I did for my 999 Ducati. (It needed a few things but nothing big, just a little scary to dig into for the average owner)
Maybe we need a motorcycle thread! After all , two wheels is two wheels and , with the popularity of electrics, the self powered thing is changing.
As weird as this sounds, I paid more for my Trek Di2 Carbon Domane , used, than I did for my 999 Ducati. (It needed a few things but nothing big, just a little scary to dig into for the average owner)
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06-08-21, 03:06 PM
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You used to be able to buy that kind of thing off the shelf, e.g. Zeus 2000 titanium spindle, cups and mounting bolts, aluminum lockring and washers:
Last edited by JohnDThompson; 06-08-21 at 03:10 PM.
