Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Is my brain getting addled with old age or is DT awesome for hills?

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Is my brain getting addled with old age or is DT awesome for hills?

Old 01-17-18, 06:12 AM
  #26  
jpescatore
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Ashton, MD USA
Posts: 1,296

Bikes: Trek Domane SL6 Disc, Jamis Renegade

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 363 Post(s)
Liked 304 Times in 217 Posts
My 1995 Trek 520 came with STI shifters, which was blasphemy in the touring world - not field fixable, etc. Trek quickly went back to bar end shifters on the 520, still has them today.

But, I loved STI and in 20+ years had one problem with the front (left side in the US) shifter not moving. A good soak in WD40 cured that, never had a problem on the rear shifter. I'd never go back to having to remove my hands from the bars to shift
jpescatore is offline  
Old 01-17-18, 09:45 AM
  #27  
Campag4life
Voice of the Industry
 
Campag4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 12,572
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1188 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by banerjek
I've been running STI since 9 speed systems were the big thing. I'm a huge fan and have used various Shimano and SRAM levels on my bikes over the years.

However, I've found the occasional failures (usually every 20-25K miles at some inopportune time) to be a pain because all the field fixes wind you limping home with a lot less gear selection that you'd like and an expensive purchase to look forward to.

The last time my Rival lever broke (3rd failure for that type) a few years ago on my workhorse commuter, I decided I was tired of buying levers and switched that bike back to DT. I live in a city and work on a steep hill and found that 1 tooth clicks really weren't optimum for commuting at uneven speeds or for hills as I found a huge percentage of my shifts required skipping cogs.

I'm finding that for at least that sort of riding, I prefer DT to integrated shifting. Taking a hand off the bar is a minus but the actual shift is faster than STI, I've never thrown a chain or missed a shift, and the reliability is bombproof. I still run Ultegra on my race bike which I still prefer for environments where my effort and speed are more consistent.

I'm wondering if I'm the only one who actually thinks DT is a superior way to shift for certain types of riding, or if I'm sliding toward retrogrouchiness?
I think you are sliding toward someplace else. DT + friction sucks. Calling it DT...please don't bother for those wondering what the hell you are talking about...is as dumb as any considering that down tube shifting compares with shifting where one typically positions their hands. Ridiculous.
Campag4life is offline  
Old 01-17-18, 10:57 AM
  #28  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,645 Times in 6,054 Posts
Originally Posted by banerjek
I live in a city and work on a steep hill and found that 1 tooth clicks really weren't optimum for commuting at uneven speeds or for hills as I found a huge percentage of my shifts required skipping cogs.
Sometimes I skip cogs, too, but I find that a modern group with tight gearing (small changes from one cog to the next) is ideal in the city. We have a lot of hills here in Seattle too, and a lot of different grades on those hills, being able to climb (or descent or even cross flat ground) at my chosen cadence is important to me.

I'm using Di2 and loving it.
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Old 01-17-18, 11:03 AM
  #29  
Bob Ross
your god hates me
 
Bob Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,580

Bikes: 2016 Richard Sachs, 2010 Carl Strong, 2006 Cannondale Synapse

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1233 Post(s)
Liked 1,241 Times in 689 Posts
Originally Posted by 79pmooney
Apparently you have never crashed and trashed your brake levers.
Oddly, the two major crashes I've had only left minor scratches on the brake levers -- but destroyed the frame! And the minor crash I had that did trash my brake levers was on the bike with DT shifters!
Bob Ross is offline  
Old 01-17-18, 11:27 AM
  #30  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,538

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo

Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10902 Post(s)
Liked 7,391 Times in 4,148 Posts
Originally Posted by trailangel
I'm still using DT.. one friction 7sp the other index 8sp.
I have a problem with pushing a brake lever to change a gear... not going to happen.
I guess the rest of you need to learn to ride a bike with no hands. Afraid?
I guess you need to learn to ride a bike where you brake and shift with the same lever. Afraid?

All seriousness- Microshift 7, 8, and 9 speed shifters are designed to have 2 dedicated shift paddles and the brake lever. I love em. No braking with the shift lever.
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 01-17-18, 11:32 AM
  #31  
trailangel
Senior Member
 
trailangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 4,847

Bikes: Schwinn Varsity

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1931 Post(s)
Liked 741 Times in 421 Posts
Hey, I'll check out those Microshift. I will look at them, I cannot promise a purchase
trailangel is offline  
Old 01-17-18, 12:59 PM
  #32  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,645 Times in 6,054 Posts
Originally Posted by trailangel
I have a problem with pushing a brake lever to change a gear... not going to happen.
I know people who can't walk and chew gum at the same time, don't feel too bad about yourself.
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Old 01-17-18, 01:21 PM
  #33  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,501

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3872 Post(s)
Liked 1,920 Times in 1,369 Posts
When I was first doing long rides, I was out on my steel DT bike and got dropped by a guy with brifters. I was holding his wheel fine as long as the slope stayed steady, but he easily dropped me in rollers when he just outshifted me. Besides the weight, that was a big reason I bought a modern bike. I still have a bike with bar-ends, which is better than DT as long as one's fit is for the drops, like used to be standard.

I've worn out a couple STI right shifters. I think ~25K of all-weather riding is about it for them. But then I've never ridden more than 5k a year, so no big deal. Maybe Campy is more durable? Don't know. Now there's Di2.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 01-17-18, 01:21 PM
  #34  
Dean V
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,853
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1067 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 259 Times in 153 Posts
My main observation with DT shifters is that when I ride them I shift gear less often due to it being less convenient.
Their only performance advantage is that they are simpler.
So if I was depending on my bike to keep going as I cycle around the world through 3rd world countries I may consider them. But I am not.
Dean V is offline  
Old 01-17-18, 01:50 PM
  #35  
nycphotography
NYC
 
nycphotography's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,720
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1169 Post(s)
Liked 107 Times in 62 Posts
Originally Posted by therhodeo
At first I thought you were talking about double tap and then had a good laugh and realized that no sane person would ever say "superior way to shift" about double tap and I reread your post.
I vastly prefer double tap from an ergonomic standpoint because I use heavy gloves in the winter, and a single moving part (left/right) per side is much easier to hit without thinking about it.

Especially when racing cross, I absolutely despised the 105 (10sp) shifting with heavy, wet, muddy gloves and numb fingers.
nycphotography is offline  
Old 01-17-18, 01:52 PM
  #36  
nycphotography
NYC
 
nycphotography's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,720
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1169 Post(s)
Liked 107 Times in 62 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
I know people who can't walk and chew gum at the same time, don't feel too bad about yourself.
I know people who don't automatically assume different preferences prove defective thinking, don't feel too bad about yourself.
nycphotography is offline  
Old 01-17-18, 01:54 PM
  #37  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,645 Times in 6,054 Posts
I don't feel bad about myself. I don't have much reason to. But thanks for the affirmation anyway, @nycphotography.
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Old 01-17-18, 01:58 PM
  #38  
Bob Ross
your god hates me
 
Bob Ross's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,580

Bikes: 2016 Richard Sachs, 2010 Carl Strong, 2006 Cannondale Synapse

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1233 Post(s)
Liked 1,241 Times in 689 Posts
YAY, IT'S A PISSING MATCH!!!!!

This is why I love the 41...
Bob Ross is offline  
Old 01-17-18, 03:52 PM
  #39  
smarkinson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 1,003
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 332 Post(s)
Liked 13 Times in 7 Posts
I remember using DT when climbing way back when. You're out of the saddle grinding away in your 39x21 and you want to shift to your granny gear (39x23!) so you have to sit down, shift, then stand back up and try to pick up speed again. Yeah, I don't miss DT at all.
smarkinson is offline  
Old 01-18-18, 07:44 AM
  #40  
dmanthree
Senior Member
 
dmanthree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Northeastern MA, USA
Posts: 1,678

Bikes: Garmin/Tacx Bike Smart

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 646 Post(s)
Liked 289 Times in 191 Posts
Originally Posted by Hiro11
The simplicity and lack of friction in DT setups is compelling. However, I've found STI to be extremely reliable and shifting from the hoods is definitely superior.
Give Di2 a shot and you'd never even think about downtube. I think the appeal is nostalgia, at best. I'll pass.
dmanthree is offline  
Old 01-18-18, 10:13 AM
  #41  
Brian Ratliff
Senior Member
 
Brian Ratliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Near Portland, OR
Posts: 10,123

Bikes: Three road bikes. Two track bikes.

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 4 Posts
I get where bannerjek is coming from. Commutes are short with lots of stuff happening during the rides. I recently got a cross bike (for the disc brakes), and built up a new wheelset. Didn't know that 11sp mountain hubs were different than 11sp road hubs (for shimano; the 11sp mountain hub is identical to the 10sp road hub) until I had built up the wheel. The only road cassette that fit was an Ultegra 11-34 11sp cassette; I've never used a cassette that had 2 tooth gear skips all the way up.

Turns out I don't miss the 1 tooth skips on commutes. The 2 tooth skip cog works really well, for the same reason downtube is attractive. From a stop to cruising speed, I only need 2 or 3 gear changes, as opposed to a true road cassette where you need 4 or 5.
__________________
Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
"If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter
Brian Ratliff is offline  
Old 01-18-18, 10:52 AM
  #42  
grizzly59
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 712
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 283 Post(s)
Liked 262 Times in 164 Posts
I still like a friction shift on the front mech, whatever on the rear. Never had a prob with DT friction shift on both. If you explain about "lighten up the pedal pressure, shift a bit too far, then back a bit when the chain is on the cog" you get a look like you're from Mars.
grizzly59 is offline  
Old 01-18-18, 11:27 AM
  #43  
Nachoman
well hello there
 
Nachoman's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Point Loma, CA
Posts: 15,430

Bikes: Bill Holland (Road-Ti), Fuji Roubaix Pro (back-up), Bike Friday (folder), Co-Motion (tandem) & Trek 750 (hybrid)

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 503 Post(s)
Liked 334 Times in 206 Posts

best of both worlds
__________________
.
.

Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.
Nachoman is offline  
Old 01-18-18, 01:16 PM
  #44  
Kontact
Senior Member
 
Kontact's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 6,825
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4260 Post(s)
Liked 1,457 Times in 950 Posts
I like DT shifters. But I don't see why STI should shift "slowly" in comparison. My bikes don't.
Kontact is offline  
Old 01-18-18, 01:25 PM
  #45  
twodownzero
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 855

Bikes: Surly Disc Trucker, Ribble Nero Corsa, Surly Karate Monkey, Surly Ice Cream Truck, Cannondale MT800, Evil Insurgent

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 186 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by dmanthree
Been there, done that, never going back to that clunky location. May as well give up indexed shifting, as well and go back to straight friction levers.
Agreed totally. I would not even ride a drop bar bike without integrated shifters. Having the gears at my fingertips is integral to the enjoyment of any kind of geared bicycle, for me. I understand that others may have different preferences, but I do not share those preferences, at all.
twodownzero is offline  
Old 01-18-18, 02:44 PM
  #46  
SlowSpinner
Yes it is a paradox
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Western Kentucky
Posts: 361

Bikes: Trek, Orbea,Specilized

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I can't hear well enough to operate a friction DT. When I was younger I remember having to use my hearing to ensure I had made a good quiet shift. Remember having to do a great deal of maintenance to the shifting system to keep it working properly. Glad to have left friction DT shifting.
SlowSpinner is offline  
Old 01-18-18, 02:48 PM
  #47  
ThermionicScott 
working on my sandal tan
 
ThermionicScott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: CID
Posts: 22,625

Bikes: 1991 Bianchi Eros, 1964 Armstrong, 1988 Diamondback Ascent, 1988 Bianchi Premio, 1987 Bianchi Sport SX, 1980s Raleigh mixte (hers), All-City Space Horse (hers)

Mentioned: 98 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3868 Post(s)
Liked 2,560 Times in 1,574 Posts
Originally Posted by banerjek
Is my brain getting addled with old age or is DT awesome for hills?
__________________
Originally Posted by chandltp
There's no such thing as too far.. just lack of time
Originally Posted by noglider
People in this forum are not typical.
RUSA #7498
ThermionicScott is offline  
Old 01-18-18, 03:20 PM
  #48  
kansukee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 429
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 122 Post(s)
Liked 51 Times in 27 Posts
With Ultrashift you can skip a few gears...just saying...
kansukee is offline  
Old 01-18-18, 03:51 PM
  #49  
MSchott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Farmington Hills, MI
Posts: 375

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Roubaix Sport SL4

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Liked 44 Times in 33 Posts
I've only known DT shifters so I can't speak to Brifters. But newer is usually better for good reason. The Ultegra DT shifters (and the rest of the Ultegra kit) have been 100% reliable over the 25+ years I've ridden them. But there are certainly disadvantages in climbing. When finances allow, I'll move up to a bike with modern geometry and shifters.
MSchott is offline  
Old 01-19-18, 12:15 AM
  #50  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 13,522

Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel

Mentioned: 199 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4559 Post(s)
Liked 2,798 Times in 1,798 Posts
Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
When I was first doing long rides, I was out on my steel DT bike and got dropped by a guy with brifters. I was holding his wheel fine as long as the slope stayed steady, but he easily dropped me in rollers when he just outshifted me. Besides the weight, that was a big reason I bought a modern bike...
This.

My only road bikes have had downtube shifters. My first, in the 1970s. Well, that's all anyone had then. When you hit the rollers you did what everyone did -- sit and mash or stand up and dance. There was relatively little shifting. If you needed to shift you sat, shifted, then either stood again while trying to minimize the loss of momentum, or double shift down and sit awhile to mash.

Tricky business with 10 speeds -- meaning, two chain rings, five cog freewheel. Especially those corncob freewheels. That's when I discovered why all the grand tour racers did that painful looking rock-and-roll thing, bobbing up and down, side to side, grinding everything they had into a 21 tooth "big" gear. No wonder they looked constipated.

I remember Lance Armstrong switching back to downtube shifters for some mountain stages, supposedly to save a bit of weight. I watched him powering up those climbs, moving seemingly effortlessly between sitting and standing, rarely shifting, and never doing that painful looking 1960s style rock-and-roll thing with hands clutching the top bar (basically, how Chris Froome *always* looks on climbs, like he's trying to pass both gas and competitors simultaneously).

Ah, to be that naive again. Turns out all I needed was the confidence of youth, EPO and cooperative insider help to go with those downtube shifters.

Despite it all, when I got my only other road bike, ever, last summer -- an '89 Centurion Ironman with 14 glorious speeds and a bike weighing only in the low 20 lbs and with indexed shifting -- I figured I was ready to kill on the moderately fast-ish local B group rides, despite my grey hair and creaky knees.

Nope. Not even close.

Oh, I did okay on the flats and modest continuous 1%-3% grades. For about 10 miles.

But as soon as we hit the rollers at the 10-20 mile stretch I got dropped. Every time. By folks pretty close to my age (60), not just younger, stronger riders.

I was losing momentum with the downtube shifters. I watched the others and they could seamlessly, effortlessly shift up and down, climbing out of the saddle for a few strokes to maintain momentum, then shifting *while* standing or as they sat. I couldn't do that.

Yeah, okay, the carbon frames and clipless stuff probably helped, compared with my old school stuff.

So roller by roller, one 50 yard long 6% climb at a time, over the miles, I dropped farther and farther back, until I couldn't bridge the gap anymore on the downhills and flats. Usually I could hang on for about 20 miles of their scheduled 50-60 mile rides before I fell off the back and went my own way.

Gimme brifters. I may keep my Centurion Ironman stock, but my next road bike will have brifters, if only for those fast-ish group rides (hey, I'm old and asthmatic, and 17 mph over a 50 mile ride is fast for me).
canklecat is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.