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Igh

Old 04-08-21, 12:08 PM
  #26  
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The IGH tech reminds me of vehicle torque converters. Early on, TC were given the stink eye for their lack of efficiency. Now, they've gained a positive light mainly because tech has evolved to understand how to pair a TC to the powertrain & drivetrain for extracting a lot more efficiency. I can see the IGH & probably the powershift dual hub making even better improvements. It might all get deep six'd for an "E-hub" shift system. 1x66 lol
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Old 04-08-21, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by SkinGriz
Kinda splitting hairs, but would M1 or synthetic ATF work just as well? ATF or synthetic motor oil is what I usually keep in the oil can.
I'm always amused that whenever someone considers an IGH, an early thought is "what else can I put in this instead of the factory specified lubricant?"

Since 1986 Sturmey-Archer has specified (and used at the factory) NLGI #00 semi-fluid grease.

BTW, ATF, which relatively speaking isn't a great lubricant, will ruin the seals on a 7, 8, and 11-speed Shimano hub.
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Old 04-08-21, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Gresp15C
Any light oil that doesn't gum up or turn to asphalt during the winter. I've read folklore that 3-in-1 contains vegetable oil that polymerizes over time...
There are a number of different kinds of '3inOne' oil. The one to use in old Sturmey-Archer hubs is '3inOne Motor Oil' with the blue and white label. It's actually pretty much the same as the old Sturmey-Archer oil in the yellow cans.

The one you don't want to use is the '3inOne Multi-purpose Oil' with the black and white label.
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Old 04-08-21, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by tcs
The great gear guru Frank Berto dismissed internal gear hubs a 'friction boxes'. Imagine his surprise when years later he ran an instrumented test and found Sturmey and Sachs three speed hubs overall the most mechanically efficient multi-gear systems.
I've not seen a study or test showing an IGH outperforming Derailleur systems as far as energy in/energy out efficiency. If any did, it seems racers would be using them. I'm open to learning more.
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Old 04-08-21, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick
I've not seen a study or test showing an IGH outperforming Derailleur systems as far as energy in/energy out efficiency. If any did, it seems racers would be using them. I'm open to learning more.
The energy in & out makes the IGH efficient. It's the lack of amount of gearing that keeps IGH from being used like a cassette is often used for.
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Old 04-08-21, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Troul
The energy in & out makes the IGH efficient. It's the lack of amount of gearing that keeps IGH from being used like a cassette is often used for.
Well...more like the cost and not ever being OEM equipment, nor being a race sponsor. A Rohloff has 14 gears in even spacing as wide as any double drive train
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Old 04-08-21, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by tcs
I'm always amused that whenever someone considers an IGH, an early thought is "what else can I put in this instead of the factory specified lubricant?"

Since 1986 Sturmey-Archer has specified (and used at the factory) NLGI #00 semi-fluid grease.

BTW, ATF, which relatively speaking isn't a great lubricant, will ruin the seals on a 7, 8, and 11-speed Shimano hub.
1986? What's with you young'uns and your newfangled contraptions?

But I completely agree. I had forgotten that SA had moved from oil to grease.
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Old 04-08-21, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
Well...more like the cost and not ever being OEM equipment, nor being a race sponsor. A Rohloff has 14 gears in even spacing as wide as any double drive train
Persistent Marketing with creative product placement, common celeb endorsements, continuous advertising, subliminal messages are very helpful tools for pushing a product down the consumers throat.

"You need this, dont ask why, you just do! It'll make you moar betteriers with unproven statistics for that sedimentary lifestyle! BUY NOW!"
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Old 04-08-21, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Troul
The energy in & out makes the IGH efficient. It's the lack of amount of gearing that keeps IGH from being used like a cassette is often used for.
This.

Human muscles have a fairly narrow, peaky efficiency band.

Best human + machine efficiency keeps crank rpm in that narrow band.
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Old 04-08-21, 04:15 PM
  #35  
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Is it true what a previous poster stated that you aren’t supposed to stand up and go for it with IGH? Do they strip?
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Old 04-08-21, 05:03 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by SkinGriz
Is it true what a previous poster stated that you aren’t supposed to stand up and go for it with IGH? Do they strip?
Depends on your gearing and how strong you are. My grocery getter is set up with a Sturmey AW and 40x18, and I stand up when I'm on steep hills. I haven't broken a hub yet. But then again I'm not a particularly athletic cyclist.

If you're strong enough to honk up a hill in 3rd gear, then you have to watch out for the "no" gear on older hubs.
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Old 04-08-21, 08:00 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Troul
Persistent Marketing with creative product placement, common celeb endorsements, continuous advertising, subliminal messages are very helpful tools for pushing a product down the consumers throat.

"You need this, dont ask why, you just do! It'll make you moar betteriers with unproven statistics for that sedimentary lifestyle! BUY NOW!"
Thing is, this side of the Atlantic, there are no celeb endorsements from cycling personalities worth anything. No one listening to endorsement marketing will know who the heck the people are making them. All the celebs are unknown here. Generally, not being OEM anywhere outside of maybe Netherlands is why they're so uncommon on this side of the Atlantic.

If Rohloff made a Di2 shifting widget, I'd get a SpeedHub wheel. Or if Shimano Alfine 11 didn't have a bizarre gearing spacing and had thru-axle (yet!?). Single speed chains last longer than der chains, no mech hangers or der cages to bend when an idiot tips your rig over at camp, and gearing range just as wide.
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Old 04-08-21, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
Thing is, this side of the Atlantic, there are no celeb endorsements from cycling personalities worth anything. No one listening to endorsement marketing will know who the heck the people are making them. All the celebs are unknown here. Generally, not being OEM anywhere outside of maybe Netherlands is why they're so uncommon on this side of the Atlantic.

If Rohloff made a Di2 shifting widget, I'd get a SpeedHub wheel. Or if Shimano Alfine 11 didn't have a bizarre gearing spacing and had thru-axle (yet!?). Single speed chains last longer than der chains, no mech hangers or der cages to bend when an idiot tips your rig over at camp, and gearing range just as wide.
Probably true? I know who Lance Armstrong is. I know he rode a road bike. No idea what brand of bike or level of components he used.

I also don’t know how representative I am of general bicycling public.

I get jealous of people who get to commute on bike. I read some of Sheldon Browns stuff 10 years ago. That type of stuff might be way more relevant to me than what pro riders use.
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Old 04-08-21, 09:06 PM
  #39  
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I've got a Rohlof with an ATS speed drive, cures the problem of lack gearing range, it's 826% from 13GI to a lot. but the whole lot weighs a ton and probably looses some efficiency when I'm in the high front ratio. Rolls like a brick too, the Rohloff doesn't freewheel as good as it should because in some gears there are still things whirring around. Can't fix it myself either, it leaks oil through the QR, self changing really. Personally I'd probably like a Pinion if i had my chance again, because you can use normal wheels.
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Old 04-09-21, 12:47 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie
I've got a Rohlof with an ATS speed drive, cures the problem of lack gearing range, it's 826% from 13GI to a lot. but the whole lot weighs a ton and probably looses some efficiency when I'm in the high front ratio. Rolls like a brick too, the Rohloff doesn't freewheel as good as it should because in some gears there are still things whirring around. Can't fix it myself either, it leaks oil through the QR, self changing really. Personally I'd probably like a Pinion if i had my chance again, because you can use normal wheels.
Pinion. Huh.

https://www.cyclingabout.com/tour-wi...inion-gearbox/
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Old 04-09-21, 06:06 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
Thing is, this side of the Atlantic, there are no celeb endorsements from cycling personalities worth anything. No one listening to endorsement marketing will know who the heck the people are making them. All the celebs are unknown here. Generally, not being OEM anywhere outside of maybe Netherlands is why they're so uncommon on this side of the Atlantic.

If Rohloff made a Di2 shifting widget, I'd get a SpeedHub wheel. Or if Shimano Alfine 11 didn't have a bizarre gearing spacing and had thru-axle (yet!?). Single speed chains last longer than der chains, no mech hangers or der cages to bend when an idiot tips your rig over at camp, and gearing range just as wide.
Just to clarify, when I mean common celeb endorsements, I'm referring to the typical icons that produce mainstream music, movies, news, EV magnate, save the world folks, media in general. If I were to pick one person out of all choices {without much given thought & a bottle of chain wax held to my head}, I'd put Elon Musk in the spot light to push IGH to the general population. Even those that naturally dislike him would become more aware of the IGH & might be influenced in having one to "show him!" .
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Old 04-09-21, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by AlmostTrick
I've not seen a study or test showing an IGH outperforming Derailleur systems as far as energy in/energy out efficiency. If any did, it seems racers would be using them. I'm open to learning more.

Okay.
Derailleur and IGH Competition in the 1930s

Copyright Tom Shaddox



1937 will be remembered by gear-head cycle historians as the summer the derailleur made a belated return to the Tour de France after a 25-year absence. While derailleurs ruled in France, across the Channel there was a completely different type of multi-gearing system that had been in use for over 40 years. These two approaches to multi-gearing had a unique meeting in the same competitions under the same rules just before WWII, with results that will surprise modern riders.



Unlike France, in the UK there was little massed start racing in those days. Cycle sport was by-and-large time trialing and point-to-point records, and because of its length and variation of terrain and weather, the Land’s End to John O’Groats record was the ne plus ultra event. Cyclists began tackling the big ride in the 1880s, and the Road Record Association was formed in 1888 to lay down rules for comparison and to document results. The RRA’s rules contained little in the way of equipment limitations.



Fast-forward to the 1930s and a dynamic time in UK cycling. Time/distance and point-to-point records, long the domain of athletic competition, proved to be an excellent vehicle for commercial promotion. The derailleur had been re-introduced after spending some 30 years exiled in France, and was challenging the ubiquitous Sturmey-Archer internal-gear hub for the enthusiasts’ market. Derailleur importers, utilizing the services of some of the best Commonwealth riders, began to have records set using their equipment. When world-famous Australian Hubert “Oppy” Opperman took the End-to-End record using a four-speed Cyclo derailleur in 1935 it was the final straw for the men in Nottingham.



Jared Diamond wrote about having just the right amount of competition for progress. Sturmey-Archer had experienced less-than optimum competition since the Great War, and these imported derailleurs prompted them to begin to innovate for the first time in over a decade. It also prompted parent company Raleigh to assemble a team of top British cyclists to test, prove – and market - these innovations on the road.



In 1936 Raleigh retained Charlie Holland, who had ridden on the U.K. Olympic team in Los Angeles and Berlin, to ride for them. They were rewarded when he won the inaugural massed start Isle of Man International Road Race on a Raleigh bike with Sturmey-Archer gears. In 1937 Holland moved on to the continent and was the first British rider in the Tour de France (using that year’s famous derailleurs, and with a result of DNF-mechanical). Back home, the torch was passed to Sid Ferris.



Sid Ferris came from a cycling family. His brother, H.E.G. “Harry” Ferris, set a number of time/distance records on three wheel cycles and later ran a bespoke cycle shop offering silver brazed frames. Sibling Sid didn’t really look the part of a lean and hard cycle racer; he had a big smile and, oddly for a speed and distance man, rather boyish cheeks. On the bike, period photos show Sid arched over his Lauterwasser bars somewhat asymmetrically, with his head turned to the left and his right shoulder a bit low. He had only one eye, and wore an eye patch on the left.



Lean and hard he proved to be, however, and while some of Raleigh’s other long distance men had used a medium range or even a wide range hub, Sid rode across the hills, moors and highlands using S-A’s new ultra-narrow range (+7.2%, -6.8%) AR three-speed. During the long summer days of 1937 he toppled all the RRA’s premier records recently set on derailleur machines: Edinburgh-London, 24hrs, 1000 miles. That July he rode the 870 miles from Land’s End to John O’Groats in 54 ½ hours*, besting Oppy’s mark by two and a half hours and setting a record that would stand for a remarkable 21 more years.



While other riders would continue to race time trials and set time/distance records using internal-gear hubs into the 1960s, Ferris’ ride would be the last time a rider using Sturmey-Archer gears would lower the End-to-End record. With WWII, the curtain came down on Sturmey-Archer’s most impressive period of innovation, and their failure afterwards to keep pace with the ever-evolving derailleur would result in history being rewritten and the remarkable competition of the 1930s to be forgotten. Of all the records set using that company’s hub gears in the 1930s only Tommy Godwin’s one-year road mileage total (75,056 miles on a Raleigh bicycle with S-A AF hub, 1939, besting Ossie Nicholson’s 62,657 miles on a Cyclo derailleur equipped Malvern Star, 1937) has arguably never been bettered by a rider using derailleur gearing.



*16.0mph average. For reference, Hubert Opperman won the 726 mile 1931 Paris-Brest-Paris at a 14.7mph average.

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Old 04-09-21, 06:05 PM
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I like the clean chain line. I like the idea of putting gears on a single speed- yes I read about getting the width right, and probably need to do something special to align sprockets.. I like horizontal dropouts. I like that it’s a contained oil/grease bath.

I don’t like that you’re not supposed to shift under load. I have never ridden one, so I can’t vouch for being advanced enough to care about ratio spacing.

Maybe a bike rental place by the beach might have one I can try.

If anyone around Long Beach ca is up for it. I can bring a case of beer or something to try out your igh bike.
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Old 04-09-21, 07:39 PM
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Internally geared hubs can be a great thing for the reasons already covered by others here. To me they are just another choice/variety to enjoy. I will say that it is a different style of riding than a derailleur-geared bike, but is an easy adjustment, at least for me. Good sources for information include Dan Burkhart, the late Sheldon Brown, and Tony Hadland's blog. My experience is limited to the old stuff, and I can say that after giving these hubs a serious try I will never not own one. I don't have a preference one way or another between derailleurs and IGHs. Both systems are wonderful. But a well adjusted Sturmey-Archer AW with an appropriately selected gear range (cogs can be changed) is truly something special. Here's one of mine.


Notice the hills of Northeastern PA in the background. This isn't the bike I choose for climbing, but I have ridden it up and out of my valley. Low gear is about 45 inches.

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Old 04-09-21, 08:34 PM
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You cleaned yours! What a nice ride.

Mine's a bit more of a work horse. The old ones tend to drip oil, so it gets on the hubshell and chain. Then dust builds up on the oil, leaving a familiar patina. On the other hand, old hubs that are coated in this way will still have bright chrome when you clean them up, even after many decades.

Note the chain guard, another benefit of IGH.

I don't know if anybody mentioned this, but you have to make sure your frame has horizontal dropouts. If it's a newer frame with vertical dropouts, then you'll need a chain tensioner, which somewhat detracts from the simplicity, but is not a show stopper. Also, older SA hubs came with two different axle lengths, and fitting one to a frame often involves changing the dropout spacing. This can be done on steel frames, but not aluminum or carbon. So it's not necessarily a straightforward matter of slapping one on an existing bike.

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Old 04-09-21, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Gresp15C
Also, older SA hubs came with two different axle lengths, and fitting one to a frame often involves changing the dropout spacing.
Or you can swap the axle.
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Old 04-09-21, 09:01 PM
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Since we're showing IGH bikes, here's my Dawes frame fitted 12 years ago with a Sturmey-Archer XRF8(W). Wonderful machine; quiet, responsive, comfortable, not a moment's trouble.



And my Surly Rohloff John Hammond Special ('Spared no expense!'):



There are others: the Dahon Curl with its Nexus 8, the Melton with its 1936 Sturmey AW, the BikeFriday tikit with its Enviolo N330.

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Old 04-09-21, 09:16 PM
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Beautiful bikes.
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Old 04-10-21, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by tcs
Or you can swap the axle.
Indeed, and I've got the longer axle on all of my AW hubs after learning that.
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Old 04-10-21, 03:49 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by tcs
I'm always amused that whenever someone considers an IGH, an early thought is "what else can I put in this instead of the factory specified lubricant?"

Since 1986 Sturmey-Archer has specified (and used at the factory) NLGI #00 semi-fluid grease.

BTW, ATF, which relatively speaking isn't a great lubricant, will ruin the seals on a 7, 8, and 11-speed Shimano hub.
My thought when I built my Nexus 8 commuter bike was "what lubricant can I put on this to avoid disassembling it every 5,000 kms?"
So I when I disassembled it for its first service drilled & tapped the hubshell for an oil port. Used ATF since then, never disassembled again, just change 15 ml ATF every 5,000 kms. Zero problems after 10 years/50,000 kms. Adjusted the cone just once. Still works like new.
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