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1000w throttled ebike that also pedals and looks stealthy?

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1000w throttled ebike that also pedals and looks stealthy?

Old 02-15-21, 04:36 PM
  #1  
austin2359
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1000w throttled ebike that also pedals and looks stealthy?

That's what I really want. An ebike that has some power and range, but if you looked at it, you would think it was less powerful than it actually is. Something that could somewhat pass as a regular bike. And I want to just be able to throttle it here and there on a tough hill and then totally pedal it at other times.

Any suggestions on existing models?

I should consider them before I think about building my own.'

I would think there would have to be some level of speed control, like you're not always pushing the throttle at max speed. I'd want as much range as I could get. And for pedaling I like 21 speed but if it can't be 21 speed it should at least have a few gears.
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Old 02-15-21, 07:01 PM
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You’re not looking for an e-bike, Austin, you’re looking for a talking dog.

Stealthy and 1000W are currently contradictory. There are no motors or batteries capable of powering such with decent range small enough to be easily disguised as of this writing.

Fortunately you don’t need 1000W for the level of activity you describe. Even a 250W motor would suffice and probably every one on the market is programmable to provide what ever level of assist you desire, selectable on the fly.

You could convert your current ride with a mid-drive for the most stealth, as that type of system has the controller built into the motor housing so one less part to conceal along your bike’s frame. Tongshen even has a model out now, the TSDZ2, available with single, double or triple chainrings, though their earlier models in 350-500W would provide greater range.

But the easiest and least expensive route would be to install Bafang’s 500W front wheel hub in your current ride. Their 500C display allows connection to a 52V battery pack for extra speed. End result, more powerful than it looks but still obviously an e-bike. So what.

Last edited by andychrist; 02-15-21 at 07:26 PM. Reason: Links
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Old 02-15-21, 09:36 PM
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You might check with Luna Cycle. I have a 1000 watt bike but virtually never use more than 750 watts. The only times I have used more was to outrun a dog and fast track back to an overpass to avoid a huge thunderstorm downpour. In both cases the 750 watts would have probably been adequate. I personally feel better about having a legal bike. At the moment I have mine programed legal.
Most powerful e bikes are either not stealthy or will overheat quite quickly at high power settings. Say longer than a minute or two. Battery sag on stealthy batteries is limited by battery sag and range is quite short.
Do some research and read some of the articles written by Justin in the Grin Technologies web site. Those articles will give you a very different perspective on power and what it means.
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Old 02-16-21, 01:10 PM
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Old 02-16-21, 03:09 PM
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Bicycles don't have throttles, you might be looking for a motorcycle or a moped. A massively overpowered motorized machine that looks stealthy is a tough one but there are plenty of excellent bikes on the market that are nice and stealthy and are of quality instead of kits and some purpose built stuff that really is just a bike or motorcycle designed around a kit. Those hub drives have a lot more power running through them because they use power less efficiently and also add a ton of weight to whatever you are building or buying.

The Specialized SL line is perfect for a commuter and if you want a flat bar set up the Vado SL is perfect for that. It is very lightweight, quite stealthy but has decent enough power to get you up the hills easily and can go for quite a bit of range thanks to it being pretty light you don't have to use it all the time.
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Old 02-16-21, 03:29 PM
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I tried to post earlier on my phone, but I got cut off for having a link. The folding luna cycle seems perfect, but it's "downprogrammed" to 750 watts. How do you undo that?
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Old 02-16-21, 04:21 PM
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AFAICT, Luna says their BBS02 is 750 w to make it compatible with government regulations for it to be called a bicycle. However, they state it has a 25 amp controller which translates to about 1250 watts with a 52V battery. Unless they reduced the controller's output, this is a "normal" BBS02. Want more power, purchase then change the motor to the BBSHD (or maybe the "Ludicrous" version). Not for me though; regular BBS02 is plenty.
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Old 02-16-21, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by 2old
AFAICT, Luna says their BBS02 is 750 w to make it compatible with government regulations for it to be called a bicycle. However, they state it has a 25 amp controller which translates to about 1250 watts with a 52V battery. Unless they reduced the controller's output, this is a "normal" BBS02. Want more power, purchase then change the motor to the BBSHD (or maybe the "Ludicrous" version). Not for me though; regular BBS02 is plenty.
It's not that simple. The BBSO2 is nominally 750 watts. Even with a 52 volt battery, it will seldom exceed that. Why? because watts is power amps x volts. The nature of an electric motor lets you get away with much that you cannot get away with on a gasoline engine. Namely at zero speed on an electric motor you get maximum torque (the acceleration thrill) but zero power. The battery might be delivering 52volts X 25 amps = 1,300 watts. That is what the battery is producing. The motor is at zero efficiency because it is at zero speed so the motor is not producing anything for power. That is the nature of the equations and why wanting gigawatts of power in an e bike is just a marketing gimmick. The nominal watts of the motor determines how much work against friction the bike is overall able to produce.

Keep in mind that electric motors have windings of a certain number of wraps of a certain size wire. The number of wraps determines the speed of the motor. The size of the winding wire determines how many amps can be applied for torque. The voltage determines the top speed of the motor and more amps will not get you any more speed. The motor will simply ignore the extra amps. Max amps determine torque at any particular speed below max.
What does this mean. If you want to go faster, you need more volts on any given motor. If you want high acceleration, you need more amps for any given motor. If you want to go fast with high loads like fighting a head wind, you need both volts and amps to get watts.

A 250 watt nominal mountain bike may be 36Volts which limits its top speed but have high amps for high torque and good acceleration at the lower end of its speed range. The voltage is often lower on a mountain bike to keep the nominal motor power legal but give a big torque acceleration at single track speeds. A 250 watt road bike might have 48 volts and lower amperage giving a higher speed but less acceleration at slower speeds.
Said differently a bike at 36 volts and 250 watts nominal will top out around 7 amps of power but the controller might be delivering considerably more amps at lower speeds. As the speed increases the amperage drops and the bike motor becomes more efficient. A 250 watt mountain bike might have a peak wattage of 540 watts pull from the battery but the motor is not producing that at slow speeds. You are getting the torque like it is but not the power for legal purposes.
The road bike on the other hand at 250 watts nominal and 48 volts is only using a little over 5 amps. The torque at any given speed is therefore lower but torque is not needed as much as top speed so the road bike will be higher voltage on the same exact motor that is in the mountain bike. The road bike may also peak at over 500 watts at slower speeds like climbing a hill and still be quite legal. That does not happen with a gasoline engine and that is why there will never be gasoline engines popping up to challenge the e bike regulations.
Austin, you seem hell bent on buy the wrong thing for what it is that you want. Your thinking is more along the lines of a gasoline engine and not an electric motor. You would be wise to research a lot more and nail the right choice.
One other caveat. If you want to go really fast keep in mind that batteries are safe right up to the point that the voltage can overcome the resistance of human skin. Once exceeded you are electrocuted instantly. That is also true if you go in the drink with the bike. There is a whole other level of safety needed at higher voltages. Anything above 52 volts is getting close to problems under certain circumstances. There is a level of sanity built into the e bike regulations that gives a big level of electrical safety.
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Old 02-16-21, 05:25 PM
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Didn't read your treatise, but possibly you missed my point which was that Luna didn't restrict the motor AFAICT. I was speaking in general terms which is what are employed here.
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Old 02-17-21, 08:56 AM
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Suppose I want to change the motor like you said? Is that a simple plug and play style easy upgrade? I suppose it would eat battery faster, right?
Originally Posted by 2old
AFAICT, Luna says their BBS02 is 750 w to make it compatible with government regulations for it to be called a bicycle. However, they state it has a 25 amp controller which translates to about 1250 watts with a 52V battery. Unless they reduced the controller's output, this is a "normal" BBS02. Want more power, purchase then change the motor to the BBSHD (or maybe the "Ludicrous" version). Not for me though; regular BBS02 is plenty.
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Old 02-17-21, 09:30 AM
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Probably it's possible to incorporate a higher-amp controller into a BBS02, but it might need to be external. The BBSHD is a larger motor and (I think) 30 amp controller but can occupy the same general area as a BBS02 AFAIK. You could swap or maybe Luna would do it and give you credit for the BBS02. Mother Nature isn't very forgiving: more power = more consumption, and the arrangement won't be stealthy IMO.
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Old 02-17-21, 10:13 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by veganbikes
Bicycles don't have throttles, you might be looking for a motorcycle or a moped. A massively overpowered motorized machine that looks stealthy is a tough one but there are plenty of excellent bikes on the market that are nice and stealthy and are of quality instead of kits and some purpose built stuff that really is just a bike or motorcycle designed around a kit. Those hub drives have a lot more power running through them because they use power less efficiently and also add a ton of weight to whatever you are building or buying.

The Specialized SL line is perfect for a commuter and if you want a flat bar set up the Vado SL is perfect for that. It is very lightweight, quite stealthy but has decent enough power to get you up the hills easily and can go for quite a bit of range thanks to it being pretty light you don't have to use it all the time.
What it sounds like they were looking for, in these here parts we refer to as a "liquor-cycle"..........pronounced "liquor.......sickle". What you use to get around after a DUI.

People around here try to skirt the rules of MUP's and greenways by having a "fake bicycle" or "fake e-bike" so they can abuse that while still having enough get up and go to use it like a traditional moped or "liquor sickle" on the open roads. Thereby on the greenways or MUPs not looking like what it really is........a moped or dirtbike.

That's what I smell here.
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Old 02-17-21, 04:33 PM
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https://www.bikeforums.net/folding-b...l#post21925054

i rev this up to 1250 watts and 30mph uphill the time...
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Old 02-19-21, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by austin2359
I tried to post earlier on my phone, but I got cut off for having a link. The folding luna cycle seems perfect, but it's "downprogrammed" to 750 watts. How do you undo that?
the luna folding bike has a BBS02 motor. A $20 cable allows reprogramming the current limit for more power. A higher voltage battery gives even more power/speed. As stated in the link below you can reliably get 1500 watts out of a BBS02 while still being able to reprogram it to a lower output if for some unknown reason you worry about being legal.

https://www.electricbike.com/bafang-hotrodding-nuts/

The motor is sold in a kit form and can be put on practically any bike you wish. Will take less than a day if you know how to work on bikes. You will lose the front gears, but you can ride the bike exactly like you are asking.

Long range typically means a large battery (or keeping the assist low). The size of the battery will make stealth hard.

A BBS02 is near silent. The first key people will have that you are electric is when you pass them.
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Old 02-22-21, 01:54 PM
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Something with a Bafang Ultra Max might fit your needs. M2S has this one. https://shop.m2sbikes.com/collection...ctric-fat-bike

Sondors has three new ones. https://shop.sondors.com/pages/sondo...mparison-chart

Don't let anyone talk you out of an ebike with a throttle. They are the safest and most fun to ride. All ebikes that are not racing should have one. Why someone would not want that option is beyond me. It most cases I have seen it has to do with ego. You do not have to use it. But at times it could save your life.

I have 2,000 miles on my Ultra Max 750w with no issues. Mine is from M2S Bike but they are not making that model anymore. It has nine speeds and can hit 38mph if needed.
Frey AM 1000 is the closest to it I know of. FREY.BIKE

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Old 02-22-21, 02:52 PM
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For me, a throttle on a dirt bike is perfunctory and I didn't install one. The only reason for one in my estimation is to make a light while street riding which I eschew. BTW, the Sondors full suspension bike is listed on their site at 83 pounds. Surprised they don't call it the mastodon.

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Old 02-23-21, 03:42 AM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by 2old
For me, a throttle on a dirt bike is perfunctory and I didn't install one. The only reason for one in my estimation is to make a light while street riding which I eschew.
I think if you had a throttle you might change your mind. You don't have to ever use it, but sort of like a more powerful motor it is nice to have when you do.

Where I find it most useful is pulling away from a light at the same speed as the rest of the auto traffic.

Have to agree with Duke0 on this one, there is virtually no down side to having one and the option to accelerate quickly might save your life.

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Old 02-23-21, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by KPREN
It's not that simple. The BBSO2 is nominally 750 watts. Even with a 52 volt battery, it will seldom exceed that. ,,,,
A lot of what you say is interesting. I found the following article to contain a lot of insight into watts and motor ratings. A more in depth approach to what I think you were trying to summarize

https://ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html

As for your miss conception that a BBS02 will rarely exceed 750 watts, you should spend some time with the ebike simulator here

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.ht...is=mph&blue=Nm

A little quirky to learn to use, click the throttle setting to "auto" for the most insight, but they actually tested a whole range of motors, the BBS02 included.
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Old 02-23-21, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
A lot of what you say is interesting. I found the following article to contain a lot of insight into watts and motor ratings. A more in depth approach to what I think you were trying to summarize

https://ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html

As for your miss conception that a BBS02 will rarely exceed 750 watts, you should spend some time with the ebike simulator here

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.ht...is=mph&blue=Nm

A little quirky to learn to use, click the throttle setting to "auto" for the most insight, but they actually tested a whole range of motors, the BBS02 included.
I dont know how many times I have read that, and I still cant keep it straight in my head. Its not intuitive, but it makes sense when it is all laid out like that.
Thanks for the reminder.
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Old 02-23-21, 09:37 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
A lot of what you say is interesting. I found the following article to contain a lot of insight into watts and motor ratings. A more in depth approach to what I think you were trying to summarize

https://ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html

As for your miss conception that a BBS02 will rarely exceed 750 watts, you should spend some time with the ebike simulator here

https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.ht...is=mph&blue=Nm

A little quirky to learn to use, click the throttle setting to "auto" for the most insight, but they actually tested a whole range of motors, the BBS02 included.
If you look at my post number 3, I reference your material. Play with it some more. Battery draw is not the same as motor output. You can be at 1,300 watts of draw from the battery with near zero motor output. You will have brisk acceleration because of torque but still near zero motor output. I am talking about the actual motor output at the speed of the bike and rider. That is what most people do not understand.

At least you provided the links to Justin's articles which I did not do. I will modify my sentence to reflect what I really meant. In actual practice, you can rarely exceed 750 watts on a BBSO2. You can easily pull more than 750 watts from the battery but on most ebikes, not for long.. I have a large enough 52v battery pack driving a BBSHD and rarely exceed 750 watts actual motor output I could probably sustain slightly above 750 watts motor output with a headwind for perhaps 15-20 miles, if it is not hot. My battery pack is 2,540 watt hours so it will sustain a sag of around 1 volt.. With a full battery and max power setting, I can read 1,700 watts draw on my e bike watt meter but my motor may be putting out under a 100 watts at very slow speed. Battery draw will cut back sharply once I reach around 28-29mph.
You can play around and bypass these limitations by putting in smaller wheel sizes to fool the system but it's not smart. If I wanted to play like that, I would invest in the PhaseRunner MT, the harness and the CA-V3 for around $500.
I might invest in the PhaseRunner anyway because of what can be manipulated and tweaked at slower speeds, throttle response, temperature sensing and multiple jurisdiction laws.
Have you followed this thread at all https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi...02148&start=50 I am not sure there is much advantage other than the ability to tinker as a hobby and costs over the PhaseRunner.
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Old 02-23-21, 10:50 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood
I think if you had a throttle you might change your mind. You don't have to ever use it, but sort of like a more powerful motor it is nice to have when you do.

Where I find it most useful is pulling away from a light at the same speed as the rest of the auto traffic.

Have to agree with Duke0 on this one, there is virtually no down side to having one and the option to accelerate quickly might save your life.
You might consider reading my comment which was directed to dirt bikes, and haven't pulled away from traffic when riding one as we don't have red lights on the trails here. Also stated they are good if you need to make a light when street riding.
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Old 02-23-21, 10:51 AM
  #22  
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Pop N Wood, this is about the maximum I could sustain but I am very unlikely to stay at this power for very long. I would not be comfortable. Noise is to high and I have to pay to much attention. I do not have my throttle programed to go above 400 watts battery draw or exceed 16 mph. My bike is all PAS mode above 16 mph. At these settings I am within practical use of all parameters. I would be pushing it on cadence and not be very comfortable with the temperature readings unless the ambient temperatures were below 60 deg F. I don't sustain much over 100 watts output from myself. Note that going to a bigger chainring in front, would not help as I am already not in the 11 tooth cog in the rear. The 11 tooth cog exceeds the motor temperature, when adjusting for more power and speed. So I found that I could push the motor output to 863 watts on a BBSHD system and 28 mph with the large battery bank that I have. I doubt very much that I could get the 63 mile range due to climbing and headwinds. I doubt very much that I would stay for long above the 750 watt motor output. Note that me and the bike are north of 300 lb and its a big ass fat bike with high wind resistance. Me and the bike is an ideal candidate for high power below maximum motor rpm, With a light aerodynamic bike and a bigger chainring, you can go faster but not much higher power in any kind of practical mode. Forget theoretical.
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Old 02-23-21, 11:42 AM
  #23  
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I live pretty close to you, winds and hills around here take it out of the ebikes for sure.

Originally Posted by KPREN
Pop N Wood, this is about the maximum I could sustain but I am very unlikely to stay at this power for very long. I would not be comfortable. Noise is to high and I have to pay to much attention. I do not have my throttle programed to go above 400 watts battery draw or exceed 16 mph. My bike is all PAS mode above 16 mph. At these settings I am within practical use of all parameters. I would be pushing it on cadence and not be very comfortable with the temperature readings unless the ambient temperatures were below 60 deg F. I don't sustain much over 100 watts output from myself. Note that going to a bigger chainring in front, would not help as I am already not in the 11 tooth cog in the rear. The 11 tooth cog exceeds the motor temperature, when adjusting for more power and speed. So I found that I could push the motor output to 863 watts on a BBSHD system and 28 mph with the large battery bank that I have. I doubt very much that I could get the 63 mile range due to climbing and headwinds. I doubt very much that I would stay for long above the 750 watt motor output. Note that me and the bike are north of 300 lb and its a big ass fat bike with high wind resistance. Me and the bike is an ideal candidate for high power below maximum motor rpm, With a light aerodynamic bike and a bigger chainring, you can go faster but not much higher power in any kind of practical mode. Forget theoretical.
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Old 02-23-21, 12:53 PM
  #24  
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Pop N Woods, interestingly I played around with a tuck road bike and the BBSHD and the BBSO2. I can get more sustained power out of them than my fat biike. Due to the fact that I can get more wind resistance before exceeding temps or rpm. With a 52 tooth Chainring and a 11 tooth rear cog I can get 983 watts sustained but the temps are right at the limit and you stand a good chance of frying the motor. I can get speeds pretty close to 35 mph at 90 cadence. If you drop to the 46 tooth up front the speed drops about a mile per hour, the power drops to right about where my fat bike would be and so does the temperature. Range is in the toilet as you cannot carry much battery on a road bike. The BBSO2 pretty much yields the same numbers on the road bike.
Once you start to get anywhere above the 750 watt motor output, I can make a damned good argument to switch over to a gasoline motor. Someone thought long and hard when they wrote the e bike regulations for the USA. The way they are written pretty much separates gas from electric and bicycle from motorcycle.
I do not feel safer riding a bicycle at 28-35 mph than at 18-20 mph. I have enough experience now to realize that I have had way more close calls at higher speeds than lower speeds in traffic. The drivers assume rather than judge your speed to be much lower and put you in danger by pulling out or passing with limited sight range. It takes a whole lot more road to pass a bicycle going 28 than a bicycle going 18. If the drivers get caught out in the other lane and are surprised by a head on driver they always forget about you and automatically swerve back into their lane. You end up in the ditch. Same for pulling out in front of you. I will only go faster than 18-20 with clear sight distances and light traffic and low congestion. I quit going the higher speeds in general. It is just not worth it.

Last edited by KPREN; 02-23-21 at 02:35 PM. Reason: reversed numbers
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Old 02-24-21, 08:24 AM
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Pop N Wood
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Bikes: 1982 Bianchi Sport SX, Rayleigh Tamland 1, Rans V-Rex recumbent, Fuji MTB, 80's Cannondale MTB with BBSHD ebike motor

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Originally Posted by KPREN
You can be at 1,300 watts of draw from the battery with near zero motor output.
That is a degenerative case, stalled motor and full output. In actual riding that won't happen, and if it did I would think the controller will turn off power on overcurrent.

That Grins site does a good job of describing battery vs controller vs motor phase current so thank you, think I understand the difference

I also have a BBSHD with a Luna Wolf 52v battery. the battery is rated to 50 amps, but the controller is limited to 30 amps. With a 42-11 high gear their load curve says the motor output power is just over 1 kw sustained with 1414 watts drawn by the battery, the difference being the 72% efficiency.

so you are right, my "1500" watt nominally rated motor and high end battery won't spend much time over 750 watt output, but well exceeds that on input power. So what "power" are we discussing? That Grin site has a whole discussion why power ratings don't make sense, something I think of every time people start debating what is legal.

What I really like is their thermal models say with the 42-11 gearing the unit will never overheat. Switch to a 52 tooth chainring and it puts out about the same power at the same speed, but says the unit will overheat in 9 minutes. They claim they physically tested each unit in their data base, so have to hope their models are accurate.


Last edited by Pop N Wood; 02-24-21 at 08:28 AM.
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