PeteHski

My classic Porsche 911 has a 5-speed manual gearbox (the classic 915), which has the "soul" of a pig. I also recently had a modern 911 with PDK, which was lightyears better to drive in anger. The last daily driver I had with a manual H-pattern shift was just meh.

Kontact 

I see. Well, you're wrong. A constant spring rate means each new additional distance of compression requires the same new added amount of force. But that's on top of the force already applied. So the first inch is 1 pound of force. So is the second inch, but that's on top of the first inch's 1 pound, so we're now at 2 pounds.

Rear derailleurs have the least spring force near the high stop and the most approaching the low stop. If you actually pick up and touch a derailleur this becomes pretty obvious.

seypat

It's on the preshift starting up or down. Anticipating something ahead. I had a 12 mile run in my neighborhood yesterday. Over 1000ft of climbing. Close to that descending. It was a constant up/down. Had I been on a bike, a triple would have got me through it with about half as much shifting as a double. 1X certainly would have been even worse, especially with 1 tooth jumps. It wouldn't have mattered whether the system was cabled or electronic. Misery either way. Uggghh!

merlinextraligh

I understand the attraction of a manual transmission. I have a 986 Boxster S with a 6 speed, as well as a 911 Turbo S with a PDK.

driving 6/10ths on a country road I prefer the Boxster with the top down and the manual transmission. It’s more engaging and more fun.

On a track, the PDK, is just better in every metric. The nature of the dual clutch, with the next gear already pre selected, and being engaged at the same time you disengage the gear you’re in, the PDK is simply faster to shift than is humanly possible with a manual .

And driving in the track at 10/10ths is already fully engaging without operating a clutch.

seypat

What about sitting in rush hour traffic? I'm sure one of them stands out in that situation.

Maelochs

I rarely get stuck in rush-hour traffic on my bike.

PeteHski

I do get that. I've driven manual Boxsters and owned several modern manual 911s and as far as manual boxes go, they are quite nice. Much better than the old 915 box I mentioned before. But I'd still choose PDK today. I'm not that bothered about operating a manual clutch and waggling a stick, as long as I still have manual control of gear choice. It got me thinking how nice my classic 911 would be to drive with PDK since the slow, clunky shift really gets in the way of driving. I can see why they replaced that box on later 911s. It was a big improvement.

GhostRider62

I think there are RD with no return springs.

I recall looking at Jan Heine's bike at Paris Brest Paris about 500 km into it. The thing was ugly as hell and looked weak but if IIRC, it had two cables to actuate

seypat

I wasn't talking about their bikes. You know that. I guess you had to make a comment anyway.

Bah Humbug

That's different from global superiority, though. It is, in fact, a very narrow and rare use-case. Your earlier comments (including on previous threads) land as saying that dual-clutch auto-manuals are inarguably superior in all circumstances and preference for anything else is wrong, and then the responses tend to derail threads.

Maelochs

I knew someone would disapprove. it's BF.

Maybe out your way, "humor" isn't a thing. That's okay.

GhostRider62

Commute?

Yuck. You guys work?! Doesn't it impair your posting on BF?

PeteHski

What you can say about electronic sequential boxes is that they change gear faster and more efficiently than H-pattern manual clutch boxes. But just as we see with electronic bike shifters, some people just prefer to do things the old way. Preference is subjective, while performance is objective.

mschwett 

yep, the “old is new again” nivex / desmodromic derailleur.

msu2001la

While the conversation about manual vs automatic car transmissions is fun and interesting, it has little to do with the differences between mechanical and electric shifting on a bike.

Does anyone really claim that a bike with a mechanical drivetrain is more fun/engaging to ride than a bike with an electric drivetrain? This sounds like pure nonsense to me. People who prefer mechanical drivetrains usually complain about the price, weight, complexity, battery life (you can just check it before you go ride, you know) etc - not the actual riding experience.

Polaris OBark

Also, it doesn't shift automatically.

Kontact 

I prefer the feel of mechanical things, and the lack of servo noise.

I also don't care for the noise of loud freehubs, chirping computers, disc brakes and clicking BB cups.

GhostRider62

I'm just waiting for the curmudgeons to switch to tube amplifiers, Beta, or French presses

mschwett 

yeah. a traditional manual shift car has a manually operated clutch. a traditional automatic with a torque converter is really quite different. much more different than electronic vs “manual” shifting on a bike.

a modern mechanical group has an indexed “switch” you press to change gears. you supply the force but that’s it. there’s no skill in the “push” other than choosing when to do so relative to speed/effort/pedal tension. a modern electronic group also has a button. you just don’t supply the force to move the der and chain. so really the difference would be more like an automatic where you supplied the force, or not, to move the assembly.

i have never owned a car with an automatic, or a PDK, or an electric car, strongly preferring old fashioned synchronized manuals. but having two modern bikes with shimano groups, one electronic, one manual, i have to wonder if the people who prefer modern mechanical to electronic drivetrains have just never actually used one. or maybe they live somewhere with no access to electricity for any purpose? i can get “not worth the cost,” but “not as satisfying to ride?” can’t get my head around that.

msu2001la

I literally have a tube amplifier sitting 10ft away from me right now. I also own a French press, though I rarely use it because it's more work than just popping a pod into the machine next to it.

As far as drivetrains, I'm on team electronic shifting - even though my current bikes are both mechanical I doubt I'd buy another mechanical groupset at this point. The electronic stuff just seems to work better, and having a little motor move my derailleur vs a cable does not seem like something that would have any measurable impact on my overall riding enjoyment either way.

Bah Humbug

Pourover FTW. With a manual burr grinder.

PeteHski

Someone did actually claim that in another thread recently. But this is BF, so I wasn't surprised!

Kontact 

So that's two of us. How could this possibly be shocking? People wear mechanical wrist watches as well.

SoSmellyAir

Yes, but in the RD context you have already applied the first unit of force to move the first distance in the first shift.

That is because the geometry of the RD parallelogram. Each shift to the next larger cog involves a distance that is slightly greater than the previous shift.

SoSmellyAir

Come on. Real curmudgeons make their coffee using siphons or pour overs.