Psimet2001 

Yes they still are for now. Durability has been what I would expect in a premium road tire.

Sy Reene

what durability is expected in a race tire anyway -- premium or otherwise?

Eric F 

Temperamental and delicate?

Psimet2001 

The Pro2 used to be the performance tire of choice. An amazing tire with great performance characteristics that were paired with long life/durability. Lively where that generation GP4k was dead. Conti iterated with "Black Chili" compound and Michelin came out with the Pro3. The Pro3 was an immensely soft and supple tire that had amazingly nice ride characteristics... but it would cut. Deep. Often. many times leading to having to scrap the tire. It happened so often I had many racers who ended up having to trash them after only 1-300 miles because something they ran over.

The conti GP4k IIS was the competition at that point. The Black Chili (IIS designator) livened up the ride enough that it wasn't as horrible. Result became the tire of choice for performance because they weren't "horrible" and had a way longer life than Pro3's.

Pro4's came out to very little fanfare and tbh don't see how Michelin has ever really recovered. The were more like the old Pro2 in durability but some of the ride characteristics weren't there.

tbh the next closest tire I have ever found that performed like the Pro2 was the Clement/Donnelly LGG. They've had quality and supply chain issues for so long though and coupled with the fact that I don't think Donn really sees road as a good investment have led to them being completely out for the last couple of years. Pirelli - we started carrying them right away 3-4 years back. They are way more supple and have really good durability but that also varies widely per model. They were greatly underselling the performance of the 4-seasons tires. Total performance tire but the compound was slightly too stiff at high shear cornering where you could feasibly get some chattering. That went away with the regular race tire but the tradeoff was the durability. Almost no other riders would ever notice the chatter let alone experience it. I had an ex-national champ come back and throw them at me telling me about it then I went out and ended up experiencing it myself once I was looking for it I could identify it. BTW - he preferred the LGG and said it was the best tire he had been on for a couple of decades.

LGG's were manufactured by Tufo for Donnelly. They are different than the Tufo lineup but I am sure there is probably something in their tufo branded lineup that might be similar but I have mostly moved on.

In tubeless road - I still have a lot of tires to get feedback and time on but I know that the performance of the Pirelli have far exceeded my expectation. I am currently running tubeless TL on the rear and 4s tubed on the front of my own bike. Mainly because I couldn't find any 4s to replace my worn out rear with. Forced my hand. Conti though - in both tubed and tubeless GP5k have proven to just have so many issues. I have seen a ton of them. I have sold a lot of them. Everyone on the internet "loves" them - rather they hear they should buy them so they do and they don't have any solid complaints so they recommend them to others without really testing anything else - so people just know that's the tire they are supposed to buy. Inevitably I end up fixing a lot of them. More often then not the riders will end up saying, "they ride great but they're just junk. After this set is gone I am switching."

So...great performing tire that is soft and supple and has great ride feel but poor durability with reference to being cut enough to render the tire useless, just like the Pro3, causing many to switch to the next most popular performance tire. In this case it appears to be headed right for Pirelli. Best bet for them is to pare down their selection so that there are less models and less confusion. Make it simple.

Psimet2001 

Ha! No... for us in this area it would mean exactly what you want but you're not getting 5,000-8,000 miles out of it. While it varies for many I would say 2,000-3,000 mile range of durability.

It's always hard to remember but everyone has a different idea of what's right in a tire. There are road riders who think that a tire that can last for 15,000 miles and is advertised as near impervious to flats is the holy grail of tires. For them the ride quality isn't something they even register or could notice and articulate. So sure there are tires like gatorskins for them.

Personally almost everyone I know and ride with would be classified as an massive enthusiast if not an outright performance or racing cyclist. Gotta ride something that rides well. That always comes with a durability trade-off. The trick is to find one that gives you the best performance without huge sacrifices in durability (not suffering tire life ending cuts at the drop of a hat and lasting for more than 700-1000 miles at least).

Bah Humbug

Thanks; that's an interesting read and happened right before I started riding, I think. I haven't tried the Pirelli road tires, but I've quite enjoyed the Gravel H.

Bah Humbug

And for me, the TL 5Ks just won't behave even well enough to GET cut, so I keep running my Michelin Power Protection+ on the roadie. Tubed, but damned durable, and much better than Gatorskins. Not a race tire, but good enough for pounding out the morning mileage and getting back to work on time.

Psimet2001 

Similar then to the old Krylion then I am guessing. A bit of the Pro2 feel but more centered on longevity

Eric F 

I get it. I appreciate the qualities - and the trade-offs - of a high-performance tire.

Eric F 

P Zero Race TLRs ordered. Hoping for a good time.

ThermionicScott 

In order to win, you need to make it to the finish line.

Psimet2001 

...first...on the last lap. No other lap matters.

ThermionicScott 

I passed a guy walking his bike on the trail today. Rear tire was flat. I offered a tube but he said it was tubeless, and had bent his valve trying to put more air in at the nearby park. He seemed pretty resigned to his fate, so I didn't spend a lot of time trying to convince him that we could probably throw in a tube. Maybe next time I'll try harder and have a better story to share...

#bittenbytubeless

PeteHski

I think you’ll. like them. I’ve been running mine for a while now and they ride great.

I did however get a nasty cut on the front tyre, which the sealant held (just). But it did lose a lot of pressure. When I got home I fired in a Dynaplug to make sure it was sealed and then rode it for about 100 miles without an issue. But then I noticed it was bulging very slightly around where the cut was (just off centre on the main tread) and I lost confidence in continuing to run it. So I replaced the tyre. But the rear has been completely fine, so I think the cut was a one-off event. It was a deep 4 mm cut straight through the tread.

The tyre was only a few hundred miles old so I’ve now patched it from the inside and will run it again at some point to see how it holds up.

I have also been running Cinturato Velos tubeless and those are really bombproof and ride pretty well too. They are not as supple as the Race TLR, but for training they are excellent. I ride on some pretty crappy roads full of stones and potholes and there is hardly a mark on them. But then apart from that one bad cut, the Race TLRs are looking good too.

WhyFi

That's not so much #bittenbytubeless as it's #bittenbyincompetence

ThermionicScott 

True. Not sure if it's a local thing, but I've noticed an inability/unwillingness to change flats that's not limited to tubeless: "Nah, thanks, I've got a ride coming." Great, but wouldn't you rather keep riding your bike if you could?

10 Wheels

Twice I have encountered High Dollar bike Riders w Tubeless flats waiting on the Wife to pick them Up.

PeteHski

True story bro.

WhyFi

Should we count the number of riders that I've encountered with no idea/willingness to address a tube flat?

Lol - no, it's not just local to you; it's all too common.

PeteHski

Just to balance it out, I’ve been riding tubeless since 2004 and haven’t ever needed to call a ride home. I haven’t even had to remove a wheel to put an emergency tube in.

DangerousDanR

This whole discussion around tubeless tires brings up an interesting point. Technology is constantly changing. Sometimes for the better, sometimes it is to answer a peripheral issue, like pollution reduction or material availability. But it is constantly changing, and the long term trend is that things get better.

My first try at tubeless was on my mountain bike with Mavic UST rims, and the first time I rode it I had a burp flat. But before that happened I could tell that I liked the traction from the lower pressure I was able to run for 15 minutes. I have not had another burp flat in about 8 years.

When I switched to road tubeless I initially had a lot of failures. They were all related to tape failures. In all cases the tape appeared to be softened by the sealant, even when they were the same brand. Mostly, they would be great for about a month, then go absolutely flat over night. I would quickly throw in a tube to ride, but the tube in the Pro Ones made the ride feel harsh. The ride running tubeless was much better, so I tried several different brands of tape and sealant until I found a combo that worked.

The other issue I had was that the GP5000s that replaced the Pro Ones were a bear to put on the rim. But the last one I mounted was a cinch; no tools needed! I bought a small pouch of tire mounting lubricant at Fleet Farm, and the GP5000 went on easily. I used to mount my own car tires and I had a big jug of a product called "Ru-Glyde" and it made it possible to mount car tires without too much effort and also helps with the bead to rim seal. Seems that it also helps with bicycle tires. Who would have thought that?!?

I now have a set of road wheels on the way that are not UST, but which do not have spoke holes in the inner rim. I know I will not have tape failures with those (tapeless) rims. I also expect that by using a rubber lubricant on the GP5000s that will go on those wheels without tools. As far as sidewall failures go, I no longer ride past the university on my way top work...

JohnJ80

that isn’t “bitten by tubeless” that’s “bitten by ignorance.” Big difference.

ThermionicScott 

There's an echo in here!

tombell

So true!!!

Schlafen

I've read about so many failures with tubeless tyres but there seems to be a constant in the narrative: narrow tyre size.
These major failures are more prevalent in 23/25mm tyres. Considering my own riding experience ( club rides, commuting, events etc) most riders do NOT weigh 65-75kg regardless of their stated 'online' weight, for 23mm tyres to even be a good choice in any designation. They are more or less 'beefy' looking but maybe taller/skinnier or short/tubby.

I've weighed 14 stone (91kg, gym rat) for the past 15 years or so and I have never even considered 23/25mm tyres to be a suitable tyre for my weight ( not only for comfort but for tyre support), not even on paper.
28mm being the narrowest I've ever used, with 32-35 being my choice if the frame can take it.

Not having a go at people here just trying to understand their process when it comes to choosing suitable tyre size, all things considered: frame allowance, affordability, tyre size, system type ( tl, clinchers, tlr). Do people think about these things prior to buying or just grab whatever their mate told them they should?

I mean I cannot wrap my head around how a 23/25mm tubeless tyre, which is designed to be ridden at a lower pressure (60 psi?) in the first place for the system to even be correctly set up to work, can support an average weight of 85kg without rims touching the ground. The pressure from the weight alone would deem puncture sealing non existent.

Also how the same tyre 23/25mm can be made to be easily installed (similar to tubed tyres) yet seal the air inside under high rider weight and not let much air out when puncturing? ( again 85kg average but more than that usually, lets be honest most riders do not weigh 65-75 kg at least in UK and US is not known for it's slim figure, so don't even go there).
I mean if I get a puncture at 91kg running 25mm tyres, I would probably not even be completely stopped and there would probably be no air in the tyre left.

Again, not hating, don't care how much you weigh, just interested in your process of selecting the tyre base on your current status.