Doge

Apparently it is not just for Fondos. Anyone done chip USAC mass start races where the chip time determines the winner?

rubiksoval

I've done races with chips numerous times, but can't imagine anyone ever using that to judge a winner.

Same as running races I've done. The overall winner is always the first person across the line, regardless if someone that started 10 rows back and five seconds later had a faster chip time.

You simply can't have everyone starting at the same time unless you did like a half mile across starting line.

topflightpro

I've raced a lot of crits with them.

You do have to make sure to check results. I once saw a situation where the winner's chip wasn't recording properly, so she didn't show up at the top of the results, even though it was clear to all that she had won.

Doge

The chip time is being used for the USA national hill climbing championship.

I see potential issues.

gerundium

Chip timing is mandatory for all races here in NL. everyone has to buy one to be in the results sheet. For close finishes they will use a finish line camera but the rest of the results are all on the chip timing system basically. Chip has to be mounted securely on the fork leg.

Doge

Well I was wondering about that. I asked the promoter if it is who crosses the line first or the chip time that determines the winner. He said the chip time.
If that is really how it is, that could be a totally different kind of start.
Whistle goes. Allow riders to get 5 second start. Hit the start line at speed. Catch "pack" and then just cover any attack. That presumes you can, but seems easier than having to win a sprint.

mattm

you're not paranoid if everyone really is out to get you!

globecanvas

There are two ways to do chip timing. The grand fondo or marathon type of way where there is a timing mat at the start and finish and the "chip time" is the difference, which really only makes sense for staggered or wave starts. Or the way I'm guessing gerundium's races work which is a mass start race where the "chip time" just refers to the actual wall clock time that the chip crosses the finish line. In the latter case the chip serves the exact same purpose as a finish line camera.

rubiksoval

They'd probably have to just start the clock like a time trial and then you just go. If you sit back and wait five seconds, that's just five seconds you've lost.

botto 

USAC, nope. KNWU, more than I can remember.

Dutch Jazz

Most races in the Netherlands (KNWU) use chips (MyLaps). The race winner is usually based on the chip. But not based on your ride time, but which chip crosses the line first (at a certain time). Pretty simple stuff. There is always a judge that writes down the first 5 (or whatever) spots for confirmation, for cases where a chip doesn't function or whatever.

topflightpro

When I've done it, time was not the factor, it was first chip across the line. But they also confirmed it with video.

What was nice about the chip timing was that you could see your crit lap times too.

Doge

From San Dimas Stage Race today, someone unrealted...
LostTheStageByOneTire.JPG

hack

Ugh ... Jr teammate should have won that crit today. Big flyer with 2.5 laps to go and was caught about 300m from the finish. Had the energy to re-accelerate to contend the sprint taking 10th. I told him if he has the energy to re-accelerate and mix it up in the sprint he had enough to bury himself and take the win.

Doge

Sure. The point being that on a number of races for my kid it has come down to the silly stuff that can/could make the difference.


I don't think chips are that precise, I don't know if a tire width would be caught.
A video does not work if you allow different start times.
A flying start on a chipped time race vs starting on the line at the whistle is good for 1-2 sec I think.

I was hoping someone knew exactly how USAC does chipped races. The USAC rules don't say either.
Daniel has done 3-4 chipped races and in all cases it was the line that mattered for the win. So doing it on time is something I'm wondering how they will figure out.

topflightpro

Chips alone cannot be used to determine a winner because the chip is on the fork. Given chip placement on the fork, headtube angle, and fork rake, it seems reasonable to believe that the first chip across the line could be on the bike with the second tire to cross the line.

asgelle

USAC rules are quite clear. Finish is judged by front edge of front tire. What they implies for chips should be obvious.
1M1. Judging. The finish of a race shall be judged when the front tire first penetrates the imaginary vertical plane passing through the leading edge of the finish line.

Doge

Which lead to my confusion.

When I asked:
"Is the winner the first over the line or the one with the lowest chip time?"

The response was:
"Lowest chip time."

In an earlier email the response was:
"The only category this type of race falls into is Road Race. It is actually a hill climb, which is a timed race. There really isn’t much opportunity to draft with an average of a 7% grade. There are only a handful of downhills/neutral surfaces on the entire 12.42 miles. Chip timing is how this event has always been done."

asgelle

Actually, you wrote,
Since promoters are not involved in judging the finish of a race, why would you put any stock in their answer?
"1G7. Chief Judge.
"(a) The Chief Judge is in charge of the overall results process at a race. This includes determining the finish order of the race, finish times of the riders as appropriate for the discipline, number of laps completed, any mid-race competitions, and any additional rankings of the riders, such as omnium or stage race standings."

Promoters and officials run afoul of the rules all the time. That doesn't mean the rulebook has been changed by their mistakes.

Doge

Yea, I think I'll go with the USAC rules over what the promoter said. This is what lead me to ask.
Hill Climb.jpg

asgelle

How do you get from "All individuals will be chip timed" to chip timing will be used to determine finish order? The promoter can provide times as a courtesy to competitors just as they can give out water bottles, tee shirts, or lunches after the finish.

Doge

When I asked:
"Is the winner the first over the line or the one with the lowest chip time?"

The response was:
"Lowest chip time."

The dialog started as I was wanting to confirm is was not an ITT, and that there would be "pack" strategy etc. Or not.
So I wanted to confirm it was a RR. I asked/confirmed: "This is a RR – first over the line and drafting allowed – correct?"

The other thing they have going on is a Fondo starts 5 mins earlier. So those racing are dealing with traffic.

asgelle

Do we really need to go another round of this? First you wrote you asked a promoter not a USAC official. Then you cited an advertisement not the race announcement or bible as a source. The only source of confusion is what you create yourself.

Creakyknees

I think chips should be mandatory by USAC.

Human officials are just too imperfect. Even with cameras. Seems like we see waaaaay too many messed up results sheets.

Just today on a relatively simple, strung out road race, we had guys that were way out of order. Placed by camera and manual, no chips.

dz_nuzz

Last year one of the chipped races I did had a very awkward moment when one of the racers somehow got missed by the chip system. He was DQ'ed (don't know who it was by, wasn't my team or my fight I just know the team since they are also locals). The team went into full argument mode with 'management' (again, don't know who, officials or promoter, assuming officials) and successfully argued their case.

My own experience with the exact same race was the chip timing system putting me 1:47 off the back of the pack even though I was about 10 bike lengths behind my teammate who was placed mid-pack.

I have reservations about chip timing systems. For some book keeping, sure, I get it and support it. But there seemed to be some sort of blind reliance on the system in that race.