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Question re:Triple crankset/FD - From 8 to 10 speed.

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Question re:Triple crankset/FD - From 8 to 10 speed.

Old 09-14-20, 05:56 AM
  #1  
Stroudy 
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Question re:Triple crankset/FD - From 8 to 10 speed.

I'm upgrading an 8sp tandem to 10sp and I've kept the triple - meaning that I've not changed it - it was set up for the 8sp. And I've got the triple shifter working, but the shifting could be better.

Will I get more milage (better shifting) by replacing the FD, Chainrings AND/OR cranks/spider?

Current Crankset: TruVativ, 28/38/48 teeth
With an FD-5504 - This (AFAIK) is designed to work with 52-42-30

UPDATE:


Ooops - sorry. Forgot to mention that I replaced the FD - I believe it was for a 9 speed chain - if there's a difference

Shifter?Brifter is "SHIMANO ST-5703 105 TRIPLE ROAD STI LEVERS 10-SPEED"


Note: The FD looks a little high in this pic. It's not quite as high, but I've got slightly better shifting by having it higher than you would normally, and angling the FD tail into the cranks slightly.

Last edited by Stroudy; 09-14-20 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 09-14-20, 07:05 AM
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What shifter are you using on the LH/ft side? Also the 8 speed ft der has a stroke and cage designed for an 8 spd chain. The narrower 10 spd chain won't play quite as nice within the wider cage.
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Old 09-14-20, 07:30 AM
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Ooops - sorry. Forgot to mention that I replaced the FD - I believe it was for a 9 speed chain - if there's a difference

Shifter?Brifter is "SHIMANO ST-5703 105 TRIPLE ROAD STI LEVERS 10-SPEED"

https://www.bikeparts.co.uk/collecti...10-speed-black

Last edited by Stroudy; 09-14-20 at 07:34 AM.
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Old 09-14-20, 09:42 AM
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A 28-38-48 would be a "mountain" crank and you're using a "road" FDER & shifter.
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Old 09-14-20, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
A 28-38-48 would be a "mountain" crank and you're using a "road" FDER & shifter.
This is correct. I believe it gives a good spread of gears for a tandem though.

I replaced the shimano nexave triple fd for the road 105. The nexave gave me an odd pull ratio with the 105 brifter.
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Old 09-14-20, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun
A 28-38-48 would be a "mountain" crank and you're using a "road" FDER & shifter.
Depends on the chainline. Road triples have 45 - 47.5mm chain lines. Mountain bikes are typically 49-51mm. You want the derailleur and chainline to match so the cage has its designed combination of horizontal plus vertical offset when it contacts the chain.

A 130/74mm BCD crank would be road and 110/74mm could go either way assuming it's on the recommended bottom bracket spindle length.

Junior and cyclocross racers run even smaller big rings regularly with good results although an adapter like the FitLink can be required for brazeon deraileurs.

Last edited by Drew Eckhardt; 09-15-20 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 09-14-20, 03:46 PM
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Your main problem I believe is the front derailleur. The Shimano FD-5504 was designed for
  • 9 speed drive trains (should work fine with 10 speed because spacing and width of chainrings [not cogs] are essentially the same - sure others will say that you will die if you don't adhere strictly to spec)
  • Shimano road shift levers (wont work with MTB shifters)
  • 52-42-30 front chain ring set. (road not MTB sizing)

Looking at the inner cage plate, you will notice that it is very large (about twice the height of a FD designed for a double) and is shaped, not flat. This shaping is designed to work with indexed shifters and helps lift the chain to the next ring. If you pair it with "non-spec" sized chainrings, this shaping can actually degrade the shifting. Also, because you are using smaller rings than designed, the FD has to be set higher than normal; often so the "bottom" of the cage misses the chainstay, I recommend that if you are going to use "MTB sized" chainrings, then it is better to use a front derailleur designed for a double crankset. Jan Heinne does a better job explaining this; see https://www.renehersecycles.com/trou...h-sti-triples/


I had this very problem with an Ultegra triple FD-6503 shifting non-spec sized triple chanrings. Changed to the double Ultegra FD-6500 and it works much better.
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Old 09-15-20, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Eggman84
Your main problem I believe is the front derailleur. The Shimano FD-5504 was designed for
  • 9 speed drive trains (should work fine with 10 speed because spacing and width of chainrings [not cogs] are essentially the same - sure others will say that you will die if you don't adhere strictly to spec)
  • Shimano road shift levers (wont work with MTB shifters)
  • 52-42-30 front chain ring set. (road not MTB sizing)

Looking at the inner cage plate, you will notice that it is very large (about twice the height of a FD designed for a double) and is shaped, not flat. This shaping is designed to work with indexed shifters and helps lift the chain to the next ring. If you pair it with "non-spec" sized chainrings, this shaping can actually degrade the shifting. Also, because you are using smaller rings than designed, the FD has to be set higher than normal; often so the "bottom" of the cage misses the chainstay, I recommend that if you are going to use "MTB sized" chainrings, then it is better to use a front derailleur designed for a double crankset. Jan Heinne does a better job explaining this; see https://www.renehersecycles.com/trou...h-sti-triples/


I had this very problem with an Ultegra triple FD-6503 shifting non-spec sized triple chanrings. Changed to the double Ultegra FD-6500 and it works much better.
Thanks! Did you have to abandon the indexing for that to work. That seems to be what the article says.

The other thing I'm going to try is perhaps placing some shims in the cage to match the nexave FD I took off. AND... I may try an angle shim so that the cage tail sits closer to the chainring
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Old 09-15-20, 06:19 AM
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I can't comment on the shift quality, but will advise being careful when downshifting on the front under load. I had converted some of my 3x bikes from 8-speed to 9-speed in the back (with 9-speed chain) without touching the front derailleur or crankset. Shift quality was fine -- I was able to move up and down the crankset as I was able to before, but I could somewhat regularly induce "chain suck" when downshifting under a moderate load (like downshifting to the low ring while pedaling in advance of a hill). I don't know for sure, but it seems like the slightly narrower 9-speed chain wasn't able to free itself from the 8-speed chain rings, and I'd suck the chain right up into the bottom side of the chain stay sometimes. I couldn't say WHY I had this problem. Some seem to think the ring spacing and/or thickness can be a factor while others say it's not. I do know that the chain suck problems went away when I went back to 8-speed on the back with an 8-speed chain.
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Old 09-15-20, 07:08 AM
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Since you are using a road triple shifter (ST-5703) but sticking with a 48/38/28 crank, my first thought is that you could spec a Shimano 10 speed era cyclocross or flat bar hybrid front derailleur. Your chainring combination is sort of in between mountain and road.

I see where your front derailleur is braze on, which could make trying out different FD’s slightly quicker.

I will double check eBay. I’m pretty sure IRD made a triple compatible FD that was supposed to work well, and I’m pretty sure there are at least 2 different “trekking” front deraileurs where the curvature of the cage will match the 48 tooth big ring much better and hopefully still index correctly in the front with your ST-5703 shifter.
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Old 09-15-20, 07:26 AM
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Here’s the link to the IRD front derailleur I was referring to:

https://www.interlocracing.com/shop/...rch=derailleur

You can do a search for the Shimano CX-70 FD, which may work well with your 48 tooth big ring but only has 16 tooth capacity so it may not span down to your 28 tooth. You could try it though:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154058694603

Last edited by masi61; 09-15-20 at 07:37 AM.
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Old 09-15-20, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Stroudy
Thanks! Did you have to abandon the indexing for that to work. That seems to be what the article says.


The other thing I'm going to try is perhaps placing some shims in the cage to match the nexave FD I took off. AND... I may try an angle shim so that the cage tail sits closer to the chainring

Jan tends to be a little dogmatic - I find his articles to be educational but not the final word. To answer your question though, no, still using index shifting. The setup I am using is 3x9 Ultegra brifters (ST-6510), paired with an Ultegra double FD (FD-6500), and a Tiagra crankset (FC-4503) that is fitted with the following chaingings
  • TA Specialites Alize, 46T, ramped and pinned.
  • Salsa 38T, 130 BCD, no ramps or pins,
  • TA Specialites 24T, 74 BCD,

It shifts perfectly well for me (I am touring and commuting, not racing the TdF) though it took quite a bit of patience to get it set up (cage rotation, limit screws, and cable tension).
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Old 09-15-20, 11:51 AM
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I've always used a friction shifter for my triple cranks..
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Old 09-16-20, 03:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Eggman84
Jan tends to be a little dogmatic - I find his articles to be educational but not the final word. To answer your question though, no, still using index shifting. The setup I am using is 3x9 Ultegra brifters (ST-6510), paired with an Ultegra double FD (FD-6500), and a Tiagra crankset (FC-4503) that is fitted with the following chaingings
  • TA Specialites Alize, 46T, ramped and pinned.
  • Salsa 38T, 130 BCD, no ramps or pins,
  • TA Specialites 24T, 74 BCD,

It shifts perfectly well for me (I am touring and commuting, not racing the TdF) though it took quite a bit of patience to get it set up (cage rotation, limit screws, and cable tension).
That's good to know - I honestly didn't think a double would have the throw to reach all 3 chainrings. I have a double to try, so no extra cost - yay

It doesn't have the throw. I'll have to pursue with the 105 triple fd I have.
I have noticed that the middle chainring channel is deeper on the 105 compared to the nexave that I took off. I may try some hacking to partially fill it with a plastic strip of some kind. Plus the rotation from an angled shim so that the tail sits closer to the large chainring.

I'll report back after some experimentation

Last edited by Stroudy; 09-16-20 at 05:38 AM. Reason: update
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Old 09-16-20, 09:50 AM
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I’ve found the cranks have better backward compatibility than forward. The exception might be a single speed change 7 crank to 8, or 8 crank to 9.

I’ve been able to go the other way without issue; 10 crank to 8 and 9, 9 crank with 7 and 8.

In the long run you would be better running a 10 speed crank with you system.

I‘ve never been in the matching chain ring camp or else the world will end. If you’re not trying to race, half-decent technique is all you need.

It would be better to ask what 10 speed setup is recommended for your gearing by those who have used that setup. And also what future range changes are available.

I know that I’ve had success with a Tiagra FD- 4603 with a 46-39-30. It is not the same gearing, the the FD seems pretty forgiving and ai could probably go to 48-39-28 if I wanted:

John
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