Can we talk about the this Rivendell Hillibike thing?
#76
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My Rivendell Appaloosa . Wrist issues including multiple surgeries. This bike rides like a Cadillac. Geared to climb if you have the legs.
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#77
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bike boom
There is a bike boom going on now during the plague lockdown.....everybody wants a bike it seems just to ride around the neighborhood with the kids....get some exercise and some fresh air and sunshine get out of the house........they dont want to race anybody or run time trials or drive down mountains or drive through mud and snow and sand...not interested in grinding gravel or climbing in the Pyrenees........dont want to do wind sprints or work on their Strava time....if you mention ..carbon ....hydraulic brakes ...electronic shifting 1X10 gearing .....trail....frame geometry clipless pedals.......they look at you as if youre from the Alderon system......yes its true........they just want to ride around the block and maybe stop for coffee and a scone......PS....they are not 70
#78
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#79
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I don’t own a Rivendell and two years ago, when I finally got around to spending four figures on a new bike, I chose a modern aluminum one. So while appreciating Grant Petersen, I’m not a follower of his. But I want to push back on some things. In these threads, his bikes are often dismissed as too expensive. Compared to what exactly? Niche? Compared to what? Decent bikes across the board are expensive. When I got back into cycling a couple of years ago, I was surprised to find so many $2000-8000 bikes at local bike shops. It feels to me that because GP’s bikes resemble, in some respects, bikes you might find at a garage sale that people apply a different set of expectations. Which segues to the next point: nostalgia. Sure, lugs. As far as I can tell, one of GP’s biggest aesthetic influences is British bike manufacturing of the 60s and 70s, Mercian, Carlton, Raleigh, etc. But his actual bikes are quite different than anything that has existed prior. And the stylistic references basically end with the lugs, materials, and panels. The decals and other graphic design elements are completely idiosyncratic, he certainly isn’t creating reproductions. That would be somewhat purposeless since you can still buy frames from some of these British manufacturers, or find them on the used market. He’s applied that style to frames in the 80s mountain bike lineage, somewhat Francophile mixtes, ‘classic road bikes’ that have been hybridized with hybrids, and more. But he’s adapted these original forms. He lengthened chainstays, widened tire clearances, sloped top tubes, and number of other things that have responded to how people want to ride now as opposed to forty years ago. Some of things he’s done either anticipated or influenced the development of modern gravel bikes. Oh, and his objection to eBikes is purely linguistic. Personally, I don’t have a problem calling electric bikes bikes, but then I also don’t object to calling oat milk milk, which is a minority position in the state of Wisconsin.
He’s consistently challenged the orthodoxy of the marketplace by taking a different approach. In my opinion I think a lot of people would be better served by that approach than the one pushed by the more mainstream bike culture and that’s really the most important issue that the existence of Grant Petersen raises.
He’s consistently challenged the orthodoxy of the marketplace by taking a different approach. In my opinion I think a lot of people would be better served by that approach than the one pushed by the more mainstream bike culture and that’s really the most important issue that the existence of Grant Petersen raises.
#80
Senior Member
I think that is the case and I fall into that camp as well. Last fall I bought and restored two older bikes and had a blast. My builds were somewhat rivish, including one with albatross bars. I like the way they ride and I’m more than satisfied, but I’m not deluding myself that they are “the same” as what GP sells. They wouldn’t accommodate wider tires, they have many fewer mounts for racks and water bottles (the 70s Raleigh has zero water bottle mounts!), and other qualities that I wouldn’t mind having. But I like the process of transforming/restoring things, which is something a lot of us share on this forum.
It’s probably a mistake to think that, aside from some stylistic elements, Rivendell bikes have ANYTHING to do with C&V.
It’s probably a mistake to think that, aside from some stylistic elements, Rivendell bikes have ANYTHING to do with C&V.
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#81
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I think that is the case and I fall into that camp as well. Last fall I bought and restored two older bikes and had a blast. My builds were somewhat rivish, including one with albatross bars. I like the way they ride and I’m more than satisfied, but I’m not deluding myself that they are “the same” as what GP sells. They wouldn’t accommodate wider tires, they have many fewer mounts for racks and water bottles (the 70s Raleigh has zero water bottle mounts!), and other qualities that I wouldn’t mind having. But I like the process of transforming/restoring things, which is something a lot of us share on this forum.
It’s probably a mistake to think that, aside from some stylistic elements, Rivendell bikes have ANYTHING to do with C&V.
It’s probably a mistake to think that, aside from some stylistic elements, Rivendell bikes have ANYTHING to do with C&V.
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#82
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Ooh, are Rivs the PT Cruisers of the bike world? (Kind of hope not).
#83
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#84
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#85
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So, OK, mine are not the new "Hillibikes". We could see a distinction soon on current vs classic Rivendell. Right now they're still selling both.
#86
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C&V is stylistic above all. I'm into restoring and refurbishing old bikes and also putting together new bikes with old sensibilities. I've been asked if I "restored" my two Riv bikes. Non bike people see them as being "old".
So, OK, mine are not the new "Hillibikes". We could see a distinction soon on current vs classic Rivendell. Right now they're still selling both.
So, OK, mine are not the new "Hillibikes". We could see a distinction soon on current vs classic Rivendell. Right now they're still selling both.
#87
Full Member
The similarities between a high-end refinishing of a 45 year old Raleigh resto-mod with 650b wheels, fenders, re-spaced for a big cassette and aero brake levers with a classically outfitted drop bar, lugged Rivendell should be very apparent to bike people as well. My 2005 Rambouillet is not radical at all and its geometry and clearances harken back to way before Grant's involvement with Bridgestone. In other words, C&V.
This isn't solving the Hillibike debate though is it? I used to love Joe Breezer's bikes too until he went all urban everyman with his designs.
#88
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Are folks hung up on the name at all? If so, the story is that were going to call them hillbikes to distinguish them from modern mountain bikes. They had gone down the road with that a bit internally when they learned of a company that already used "hillbike" and made the decision to go with hillibike.
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Andy
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#90
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What I don't get is why Rivendell did a complete 180 from "drops are way more versatile than straight bars" to "we're not racing, we don't want drop bars". I always lusted about owning an Atlantis, but it upsets me that, browsing at their geometry charts, it seems like their entire catalog, with the exception of the Rodeo, appears to have been reconfigured for swept back cruiser bars.
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#92
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What I don't get is why Rivendell did a complete 180 from "drops are way more versatile than straight bars" to "we're not racing, we don't want drop bars". I always lusted about owning an Atlantis, but it upsets me that, browsing at their geometry charts, it seems like their entire catalog, with the exception of the Rodeo, appears to have been reconfigured for swept back cruiser bars.
#93
Junior Member
The US has some wonderfully interesting bicycle commentators that I've learnt much from, including Rivendell. There is little chance I'll ever own one but there are some great ideas that work well, for instance I've found swapping thumbies/levers left-right so they are under the bar is much more ergonomic. I'm enjoying reading/watching Compass/Rene Herse, Bike Snob, pathlesspedaled, henrywildeberry, Dave Moulton, Retrogrouch etc, all entertaining and educational. When lock-down is over I'll get out more!
#94
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I've been looking for an excuse to comment on Grant Petersen and his many and wondrous ideas. I figured it wouldn't take forever until an opportunity arose.
While I've never met or talked to the man, for the last 15 years or so I've kept up with his thinking on bicycles. Never bought one of their bikes, but I've bought plenty of parts, and I'm grateful, for instance, for finding out about the 48 cm Nitto Noodle. My poor man's Rivendell is a Bruce Gordon BLT (Taiwan), which I've set up up with that bar and 40 mm Schwalbes -- another GP thing, fat tires -- and I love riding it.
Another thing I learned from GP is to ride with flat pedals instead of cleats or toe clips. I did a 5-day supported tour that way, and realized it wasn't working for me. Not because the cycling shoes give extra power, but because I realized that being clipped in meant there was one less thing to worry about at the end of a long day in the saddle, namely how to position my feet. For long rides, for me: SPD.
Now if you read Grant on the subject, cleats are just stupid. For all his expertise, I think he is wrong on this, and that made me question some of his other 'teachings,' if that's the word I want.
I want to say this next bit correctly, because I respect Mr. Petersen, and he has helped my riding, and my understanding of bicycles, and I think he's a great guy.
But GP is not like most people. Maybe "obsessive" is too strong, but he certainly gets "engrossed." He goes all in on his ideas, even the goofy ones. And it would probably help if folks kept that in mind, and try out the ideas in their head, or for real, and decide for themselves, and not get mad.
GP's main thing has always been comfortable and efficient bikes that are useful for lots of riding. The frames he sells exemplify this, and there's nothing 'retro' about them except the looks.
But look at some of the causes he's championed, and how passionately he pushed them, and you realize a lot of it was a bit half baked:
- The axes and hatchets. Haven't heard about those for a while, but come on...axes?
- The diatribes against indexed shifting. He has finally softened his stance, but for years it was index=bad. Why? Most of my bikes index, but when they go out of adjustment, I switch to friction and it can take months to go back... friction works so well, why bother. But it's cool when it works, with no downside, why the hatred?
- Double top tubes. Every frame over 54 cm had to have them for a couple years. That's mostly over.
- Mixte style frames, the current fashion. I lost track of all the models in that style... meanwhile, there's a presale going on for Sam Hillborne frames. They sold out in three days and "we won't have Sams again at least late 2022." If I made a living selling frames, I'd have my bread-and-butter models available at least most of the time. Step right up for your mixte, though... how big a market is that? I don't get it, but it's his store, and he's made it work three decades so far.
- Poking fun at bike shorts with 'diaper pads.' That's condescending and mean-spirited. I bet if someone pointed that out to him, he'd reconsider, because it's out of character. I ride in street clothes all the time, but for long rides I'm more comfortable in bike shorts. That's probably true for most people. Why is that even worth a discussion?
- Cost cutting by making frames in Taiwan...but at the same time insisting on lugs, and wet paint, and panels, and special paint on lugs and dropouts... and all of a sudden a Rivendell Taiwan frame costs more than a Gunnar Sport or Tour.. at which point I'll buy my frame from Waterford, Wisconsin, and take it TIG welded.. they may not be as pretty, but they're plenty strong, and MUSA -- which is a cause Rivendell champions, and I like that and respect them for it.
Visionary, passionate, sometimes myopic, and occasionally tripping over dolllars to get to the dimes. How can you not love a guy like that? I hope Rivendell stays afloat; the biking community is better for it, and certainly more interesting.
So next time you get the chance, give the man a break.
cheers -mathias
While I've never met or talked to the man, for the last 15 years or so I've kept up with his thinking on bicycles. Never bought one of their bikes, but I've bought plenty of parts, and I'm grateful, for instance, for finding out about the 48 cm Nitto Noodle. My poor man's Rivendell is a Bruce Gordon BLT (Taiwan), which I've set up up with that bar and 40 mm Schwalbes -- another GP thing, fat tires -- and I love riding it.
Another thing I learned from GP is to ride with flat pedals instead of cleats or toe clips. I did a 5-day supported tour that way, and realized it wasn't working for me. Not because the cycling shoes give extra power, but because I realized that being clipped in meant there was one less thing to worry about at the end of a long day in the saddle, namely how to position my feet. For long rides, for me: SPD.
Now if you read Grant on the subject, cleats are just stupid. For all his expertise, I think he is wrong on this, and that made me question some of his other 'teachings,' if that's the word I want.
I want to say this next bit correctly, because I respect Mr. Petersen, and he has helped my riding, and my understanding of bicycles, and I think he's a great guy.
But GP is not like most people. Maybe "obsessive" is too strong, but he certainly gets "engrossed." He goes all in on his ideas, even the goofy ones. And it would probably help if folks kept that in mind, and try out the ideas in their head, or for real, and decide for themselves, and not get mad.
GP's main thing has always been comfortable and efficient bikes that are useful for lots of riding. The frames he sells exemplify this, and there's nothing 'retro' about them except the looks.
But look at some of the causes he's championed, and how passionately he pushed them, and you realize a lot of it was a bit half baked:
- The axes and hatchets. Haven't heard about those for a while, but come on...axes?
- The diatribes against indexed shifting. He has finally softened his stance, but for years it was index=bad. Why? Most of my bikes index, but when they go out of adjustment, I switch to friction and it can take months to go back... friction works so well, why bother. But it's cool when it works, with no downside, why the hatred?
- Double top tubes. Every frame over 54 cm had to have them for a couple years. That's mostly over.
- Mixte style frames, the current fashion. I lost track of all the models in that style... meanwhile, there's a presale going on for Sam Hillborne frames. They sold out in three days and "we won't have Sams again at least late 2022." If I made a living selling frames, I'd have my bread-and-butter models available at least most of the time. Step right up for your mixte, though... how big a market is that? I don't get it, but it's his store, and he's made it work three decades so far.
- Poking fun at bike shorts with 'diaper pads.' That's condescending and mean-spirited. I bet if someone pointed that out to him, he'd reconsider, because it's out of character. I ride in street clothes all the time, but for long rides I'm more comfortable in bike shorts. That's probably true for most people. Why is that even worth a discussion?
- Cost cutting by making frames in Taiwan...but at the same time insisting on lugs, and wet paint, and panels, and special paint on lugs and dropouts... and all of a sudden a Rivendell Taiwan frame costs more than a Gunnar Sport or Tour.. at which point I'll buy my frame from Waterford, Wisconsin, and take it TIG welded.. they may not be as pretty, but they're plenty strong, and MUSA -- which is a cause Rivendell champions, and I like that and respect them for it.
Visionary, passionate, sometimes myopic, and occasionally tripping over dolllars to get to the dimes. How can you not love a guy like that? I hope Rivendell stays afloat; the biking community is better for it, and certainly more interesting.
So next time you get the chance, give the man a break.
cheers -mathias
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#95
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But GP is not like most people. Maybe "obsessive" is too strong, but he certainly gets "engrossed." He goes all in on his ideas, even the goofy ones. And it would probably help if folks kept that in mind, and try out the ideas in their head, or for real, and decide for themselves, and not get mad.
I love and respect the man, and would love one of his bikes. If I wasn't saving up for a house (in *this* economy!) I would absolutely have one right now.
#96
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We could probably push this to the top of the thread and close this and all other GP discussions, lol. The man is an eccentric designer (I don't think he would agree with this characterization, but at least relative to the Bike Industry, he is) and I think people just need to take that for what it is. His bikes are tailored to a niche market (I don't think he would agree with this, either, but they are) - if it's not for you, that's because it's not for most people.
I love and respect the man, and would love one of his bikes. If I wasn't saving up for a house (in *this* economy!) I would absolutely have one right now.
I love and respect the man, and would love one of his bikes. If I wasn't saving up for a house (in *this* economy!) I would absolutely have one right now.
#98
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-Kurt
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I'm not even sure what that means. Do you feel that utility cycling is only "pure" if done on low-end non-aesthetically pleasing bikes? Or that it is only "pure" if done on "hardcore" post-industrial design cargo bikes put together from scrapped Huffys in an abandoned warehouse on the edge of town? Or that utility cycling is only worthy of the name if done on an opafiets or an omafiets? Or on a rod-brake Raleigh or Flying Pigeon? Or....?
It's fine for you or anyone else to give Rivendell a "hard pass" -- but for those of us into semi- fetishizing c&v bikes to do on the basis of scorning "gentrification" of some element of cycling seems awfully close to throwing stones at a glass house that might look like the ones we occupy...
Without gentrification old bikes and old bike parts would just be old, not, as some are, objects of our lust and veneration.
As GP would say, just ride.
It's fine for you or anyone else to give Rivendell a "hard pass" -- but for those of us into semi- fetishizing c&v bikes to do on the basis of scorning "gentrification" of some element of cycling seems awfully close to throwing stones at a glass house that might look like the ones we occupy...
Without gentrification old bikes and old bike parts would just be old, not, as some are, objects of our lust and veneration.
As GP would say, just ride.
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#100
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I'm not even sure what that means. Do you feel that utility cycling is only "pure" if done on low-end non-aesthetically pleasing bikes? Or that it is only "pure" if done on "hardcore" post-industrial design cargo bikes put together from scrapped Huffys in an abandoned warehouse on the edge of town? Or that utility cycling is only worthy of the name if done on an opafiets or an omafiets? Or on a rod-brake Raleigh or Flying Pigeon? Or....?
I'm saying that Rivendell's marketing tends to over-insinuate that certain doo-dads or their re-innovations are somehow a necessity for effective utility cycling, even though they're not. That's where I take an issue. Repeat crap like this long enough, and some of the equipment fetishers out there may start taking it as fact. As utility cycling continues to grow in the US, it's just a slippery slope before these myths become perceived facts.
The irony is that building equipment-related barriers to riding is - quite literally - the opposite of "go ride." Grant ought to look at his copy in the mirror sometime.
-Kurt
Last edited by cudak888; 02-28-21 at 07:28 PM.