wacomme

I have a long thread in the Google Wattage forum asking about training plans. Aside from getting a coach, what's a good base training plan (~12 weeks) for the trainer? At age 49 I'm starting to race again (TT and HC) this year after a 30 year break. I have a power meter and have read Friel's and Coggan & Allen's book (need to read again).

I need to work on threshold (260 W FTP) and weight loss (currently 77 kg, want 70 kg), and generally understand good threshold workouts. However, I have been running and cross-training the past two months with very little riding. So, is it best to start with a sold base training program? If so, how does this differ from threshold training? Is it all level 1 & 2 riding? Any intervals? If so, what kind?

Michael

TMonk

Keep in mind that at this point any advice you can get is going to be largely arbitrary.

Riding alot would be a good start. Maybe do the odd Z3 ride or Z4 intervals 1-3/week and spend the rest of the time just riding alot.

wacomme

I can manage long rides on weekends when, weather permitting, I can ride outdoors. But riding for 2-3 hours/day on the trainer weekdays sounds very monotonous and boring. I'd rather suffer with intervals.

Smallguy

read base building for cyclists it gives allot of info for setting up the pre and base portions of your plan

from memory I think this is a coles notes version of base building but I'd still suggest you read the book as I'm a newbie myself

ideally you want to have 4-6 weeks of prep 12 weeks of base and 12 weeks of build before your first priority A race

starting out in prep and base 1 with zone 1 and zone 2 rides.. working on pedaling efficiency... spend more time in zone 1 than 2

base 2 - continue to work on efficiency ad add in strength work zone 1 and zone 2 rides.... spending more time in zone 2 than 1 now

Base 3 more efficency work... and more strength work on the bike too... adding in some zone 3 efforts along with mroe zone 2 and zone 1 for warm up cool down and recovery

I think by base 3 you generally stop doing as much weights and cross training but I'd have to reference the book

what I'm trying this season is monday and Friday are my recovery days and I load up on the training on the weekends since I have the time for 3-4 hour rides then.. might work for you too

wacomme

Is this Chapple's book?

johnybutts

yes.

TMonk

I feel ya; the trainer can be a real drag sometimes, but not as much as riding in a blizzard.

For this reason and time constraints, I do much of my longer rides on the weekend. During the week, if the trainer is all you got, you could always settle for 2-3x 20min z4 intervals a couple times a week. I do this frequently when I am home in N San Diego County because my parents live atleast 30 min from any open stretch of road.

The way I see it the trainer is excruciating mentally at the least, might as well put your body through some hurt to not be so bored and be done with it in an hour or less.

wacomme

What you suggest is my preference. I can structure my riding and suffer on a trainer if the time frame is short. However, for good base building, I'm not sure if 2-2 20 min z4 intervals are what I need right now. I guess I should buy Chapple's book and read what he suggests for base.

Smallguy

not that my program is the best.... I copied it form base building for cyclists

but with loading up my ride time on the weekends and cross-training/weights Tuesdays and Thursdays I really only ride once a week on my trainer indoors unless the weather is miserable

I keep these rides to 1 to 1.5 hours but I'm a newbie to training so I train less than most here (little less than 500 hours)

Grumpy McTrumpy

my $.02

if you really are a noob then you are better off doing whatever you can to stay motivated to ride as much as possible.

wacomme

I'm not that much of a noob. I just haven't put in lots and lots of hours on the trainer. This experience will be new for me.

MDcatV

were i you, here's what i would do:

3 trainer days/week, 1.0 to 1.25 hrs./session.
day 1: 10 min warmup, 1x20 just under ftp, 5 mins. recovery, 1x20 just under ftp, 5 to 10 mins cool down
day 2: 10 min warmup, 8x5' just under ftp, 1 to 2 mins recovery between reps, 5 to 10 mins cool down
day 3: 10 min warmup, friel pacing workout (search this forum or google it), 5 to 10 mins cool down

day 1/2/3 are arbitrary, mix and match, repeat whichever one you like best, etc.

weekends:
long ride of varying intensity with ap at L2/3, small group rides or rides with team mates to keep it interesting, avoid the big race pace group rides unless you need one for mental motivation. 3-ish hrs./ride.

that'll get you 9-ish hrs/week focusing on aerobic fitness. i stay away from the temptation to mix in vo2 or awc work too soon, they tend to cause me to gain fitness really fast, but also to lose fitness before I want it to be there.

i did this alot when i was a new father and a cat 3 and was fine fitness wise in most races other than selective longer cat 1/2/3 races.

wacomme

This sounds excellent and is the type of plan I'd like to do. However, it seems that Friel and Chapple seem to emphasize more level 1-2 type of riding for base. While I feel I can handle this training schedule, is it too much (fast) too soon? Should I do longer and slower rides, and not just on weekends?

ZeCanon

If you can't get good volume, Zone 1 and 2 (which are quite arbitrary, btw) are all but useless. You aren't putting enough stress on your body for any meaningful adaptation, you'll just plateau at a very low level.

efficiency

So what's "good volume"?

ZeCanon

however many hours it takes for you to apply adequate stress, multiplied by the number of times you can do that in a week.

The number of rides is determined by available ride time and ability to recover. A lack of either makes higher intensity work more efficient.

And Zone 1/2 are still too arbitrary to really prescribe anything anyway. Even with infinite time I wouldn't spend it all at 50-60% of FTP.

Jancouver

Quit running

1) Running trains inappropriate movement patterns, making your cycling less efficient.

2) Running is causing a lot more muscle damage and requiring a lot more recovery per hour of training completed.

3) Running takes away time that could be spent on riding.

wacomme

I have a 1/2 marathon I'm participating in this Saturday. After that, it's bike time. Perhaps I'll throw in a little badminton now and then, but it'll mostly be the bike.

MDcatV

probably not. be disciplined about keeping your Ws in a narrow target range on the weekday stuff, consider starting around 80% ftp and evaluating how your body responds, then adjust upward or downward from there.

if you have time for longer rides during weekdays, go for it.

dont worry about "slower" focus on "steady".

do some trial and error to figure out what your body can handle such that the last workout of the week should be doable.

i like incorporating a 3 weeks "on", 1 week "recovery" program, it forces a rest as it's scheduled and results in a steady progressive ctl build.

lastly, i'm convinced that for training, THAT you do is more important than WHAT you do.

it's silly how much work it takes just to suck as an amateur bicycle racer.

carpediemracing 

+1 to a lot of what MDCatV says.

Ride more. Ride in groups.

At 260FTP and 77kg I placed regularly in Cat 3 crits (2005-2009).

At 260FTP and 70kg... that's 2-3kg lighter than I was when I got enough points to upgrade to Cat 2 (2010).

I can't climb (w/kg is the sucks), TT (FTP is the sucks), but I can be reasonably competitive in Cat 3 races at exactly what you have.

Therefore it's important to improve your tactical/savvy senses. Riding more, especially in groups, will help.

If you're stuck on a trainer or doing a lot of solo rides, doing steady work is best. It's basically all I do before the first races of the year and I seem to be okay in them. I train more in Jan/Feb than any other time of the year. I mainly race after that.

Good luck this coming season
cdr

wacomme

Thanks for the last couple of posts. I have a tendency to go too hard too fast, so I really need to create a plan and stick to it. It's also encouraging that carpediemracing is cat 3 with my FTP and weight. However, I'm lacking in tactics and group riding experience. Also, since my focus is TT and HC, I still have threshold and weight loss improvements to make.

carpediemracing 

I don't want to discourage you but unless you're extremely unfit, it'll be hard to see, say, a 100w improvement in FTP. Or 150. Or 200.

The other way to improve w/kg is the drop the kgs, but to drop significant kgs... 7 isn't a lot. 10, 20, that's a lot. I dropped about 20 kg over a couple years and that made a pretty big difference.

You want something like 3.5w/kg to 4w/kg to be somewhat competitive. I think the stronger guys are holding 6w/kg for short periods of time. This is for stuff involving some climbing. Since I struggle at 3.5w/kg - my Cat 4 teammates drop me, as do non-racers - that's a minimal number.

I fantasized about bringing my FTP up to about 300 and my weight down to 68 kg or so, which would put me in the 4.5 w/kg range. This is a vast improvement from 250 at 72 kg (best of 2010 at 3.5 w/kg). After a couple years I realized that my FTP isn't changing very much so I focused on weight, dropping from the mid 80kg range (under 3w/kg for a while, and as low as 2.75w/kg when I was over 90kg) to the aforementioned 72 kg.

I still want to hit 68 kg. FTP goal is maybe 270-280? which would get me to 4w/kg. Then I'll be the fifth rider dropped, not the first. Wait, I upgraded. I'll still be the first to be dropped.

Good luck (to both of us),
cdr

wacomme

At age 49, I'll be happy this season to reach 70 kg and 280 FTP, or 4W/kg. I think that's a reasonable numbers goal. As to how that will translate to racing goals I don't really know due to lack of experience for the past 30 years. This will be my baseline racing year.