Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Tandem Cycling
Reload this Page >

Why does it feel like The Tandem is more work than my regular bike?

Notices
Tandem Cycling A bicycle built for two. Want to find out more about this wonderful world of tandems? Check out this forum to talk with other tandem enthusiasts. Captains and stokers welcome!

Why does it feel like The Tandem is more work than my regular bike?

Old 05-26-21, 09:17 PM
  #1  
fooferdoggie 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 2,343
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 679 Post(s)
Liked 945 Times in 552 Posts
Why does it feel like The Tandem is more work than my regular bike?

Now Both bikes are e bikes with bosch mid drives. The motors are the same they both have the same watts and torque but my regular bike tops out at 28 and the tandem at about 19mph.
They both have the same saddle or close enough to not matter. Same distance from the saddle to the bars. Bars are a little higher though on the tandem. Same crank arm length same peddles
Now that I have the computer that shows how many watts I am doing on both bikes I can see what's going on. On a good day on my commute of 10 miles each way I can do 170 to 200 watts average with my heart rate at around 135. On longer rides on my regular bike I may average 150 or so watts for 2.5 Horus and 40 miles with my heart rate around 130 average.
Now I have not taken a longer ride yet on the tandem now that I have the meter but the shorter rides 10 to 25 miles. But the average watts is 90 or so with 150 feeling fairly hard for me. My wife can peddle with me holding my legs still and the motor shows no watts. It is freewheeling when she is putting more effort into than me. She is driving the bike but not effecting the watt meter. I am sure she is taking watts away with her effort.
Also I keep 80 rpm cadense on my regular bike or a bit higher but its harder to keep that cadence on the tandem. It feels like I am putting more watts out then I am but my heart rate reflects how many watts I am putting out fairly well. It is around 110 to 115
The average speed is higher on my regular bike I like to cruise around 22mph but o the tandem we cruise right at the point the motor is hardy using any watts around 18.5.



fooferdoggie is offline  
Old 05-27-21, 01:01 AM
  #2  
Rick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,378
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 598 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 374 Times in 261 Posts
Exactly what do you mean by the tandem is more work. The speed difference is how the controller is setup. The single is a class 3 and the tandem is a class 1. Even without a motor. A tandem can be harder to ride. It takes time and sometimes allot of extra work for a tandem team to work well together.
Rick is offline  
Likes For Rick:
Old 05-27-21, 06:36 AM
  #3  
longpete
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Rolling resistance on tandem is higher (weight).(Riders+tandem+wheels).
Air resistance is higher : bar higher(also wider?) and frontal surface a bit higher, also frame tubes and other on tandem have a highe diameter.
U're more powerful than your wife : this means eg your max power 100% your wife 50%.
These added up and divide by two gives 75%.
To get 100% you will have to deliver 25% more power on the tandem .
These are my experiences.
longpete is offline  
Old 05-27-21, 07:18 AM
  #4  
fooferdoggie 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 2,343
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 679 Post(s)
Liked 945 Times in 552 Posts
I am not saying it is more work. I am saying it feels like it. I am actually working less on the tandem according to my heart rate and watt meter. but it feels like I am working harder then I am. I expected to be working harder but I am actually working less. The same battery gives us about the same range as on my regular bike. so why does it feel harder when I am not working harder? it feels harder to keep my cadence as high and it feels like I am exercising more but I can never get my heart rate as high on the tandem but I feel like It should be higher.
but it is maybe a good thing.last week I did 225 miles between my regular bike and the tandem. like Saturday I did a 30 mile ride on my regular bike then later a 25 miles ride on the tandem and 35 miles Sunday. I was wore out Monday and riding was slow. so it may be best I am not getting my heart rate as high as I may burn myself out. Now that summer is coming I will do my 20 mile commute come home eat and hop o the Tandem for another 15 or more miles every day and ore on weekends.
both bikes have the same electronics use the same batteries we tend to use less power on the tandem overall but I will crank up assist to go up hills faster where I can just power up hills on my regular bike. we use around. I can put out 170 or more watts on my regular bike for 2.5 Horus with my heart rate at 135 bpm. but on the tandem I struggle to do 150 and tend to run around 120 watts at most with a heart rate around 110 to 115. but it feels like I am doing the same work as when I am doing 170 watts on my regular bike.

Last edited by fooferdoggie; 05-27-21 at 07:38 AM.
fooferdoggie is offline  
Old 05-27-21, 02:25 PM
  #5  
Leisesturm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,968
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2473 Post(s)
Liked 722 Times in 513 Posts
IPS means that the faster cadence will see 100% of the work. Since the Captain is (usually) the more powerful rider they will be the one that powers the whole rig most of the time. That, and the other reasons given above, AND the fact that having another human onboard, one that does not have the intrinsic balance instinct that a sighted Stoker will have - these things make the tandem experience seem like more work than zipping around on the single bike. What should really be instructive is to take the tandem out without a Stoker. I still Captain my wife to her workplace on weekdays because she does not want to lose the fitness to do it when the jobsite opens back up. After she gets off and I turn around to head back home it's a different tandem! And my wife is strong. Very strong. But riding the tandem solo is still way easier and probably faster too but I haven't really measured.
Leisesturm is offline  
Likes For Leisesturm:
Old 05-27-21, 04:08 PM
  #6  
fooferdoggie 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 2,343
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 679 Post(s)
Liked 945 Times in 552 Posts
Yes i wanted to test it without my wife and see. its a bit frustrating to feel like i am working hard but not get my heart rate up. yesterday on my commute home I averaged right around 15mph and 160 watts average but on the tandem right at 15mph average it was only 90 watts. but we tend to get about the same range I get up to 40 miles on my bike and around 35 on the tandem. but I am putting out far more watts on mine. the tandems display is about the same but it shows how many watts per mile the motor is using. when we are in the 18.5 to 19mph range we are only using a few watts per mile as the motor is right at its speed cutoff range. so we are not using as much power when going our normal speed as I am on my regular bike the assist levels are the same but I am going around 22 so you would think the tandem would have more range. but maybe I am putting out ,more watts so the motor is not using as much.
fooferdoggie is offline  
Old 05-28-21, 08:43 PM
  #7  
Carbonfiberboy 
just another gosling
 
Carbonfiberboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,500

Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004

Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3872 Post(s)
Liked 1,920 Times in 1,369 Posts
Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
Yes i wanted to test it without my wife and see. its a bit frustrating to feel like i am working hard but not get my heart rate up. yesterday on my commute home I averaged right around 15mph and 160 watts average but on the tandem right at 15mph average it was only 90 watts. but we tend to get about the same range I get up to 40 miles on my bike and around 35 on the tandem. but I am putting out far more watts on mine. the tandems display is about the same but it shows how many watts per mile the motor is using. when we are in the 18.5 to 19mph range we are only using a few watts per mile as the motor is right at its speed cutoff range. so we are not using as much power when going our normal speed as I am on my regular bike the assist levels are the same but I am going around 22 so you would think the tandem would have more range. but maybe I am putting out ,more watts so the motor is not using as much.
I know nothing about electric bikes but quite a bit about human-powered tandems. For sure a human-powered tandem is more work for the captain if the stoker's power output is much below the Captain's. A slightly odd thing is that I use a power meter on my human-powered single and put out maybe 115w at 15. Hard to tell because there's always a little wind, from cars if nothing else. Anyway, the big difference with a tandem is acceleration. If one pedals by pushing on the downstroke instead of pedaling with about the same force all the time, one is accelerating the bike a hair every pedal stroke. One gets used to having a single bike rather "get out of the way" of the pedal by accelerating slightly. A tandem doesn't do that because of the weight. I have no idea how the electrics and associated computers might deal with that.

We're a 147 y.o. team and do fine pushing on the pedals to move the bike. When we're in shape, we do 60 mile, 3000' rides at about 14 mph average. We're getting there, doing 50 at 13.6 currently. Hard road back after the pandemic. Neither of us is a strong rider and stoker puts out about half of captain's power throughout the range of effort. We have a 2003 steel CoMotion. When we were a few years younger, we did centuries, doubles, and mountain rides, slowly, but we did them. Well, not all that slowly . . .. Maybe we'll get back to doing that, maybe not. It's good that gyms are finally reopening.

A possible cause of frustration with a pedal assist bike is that the bike puts out more power the higher one's cadence. If one wants to get one's HR up, pedal in lower gears at a higher cadence with less assist. That should work. Just hold the cadence while shifting into bigger gears until you get your HR up to your goal. If that doesn't work, turn the power off. That'll work. 90 on the flat, 80 while climbing is normal. I don't think it's useful to compare your tandem experience with your single.
__________________
Results matter
Carbonfiberboy is offline  
Old 05-29-21, 07:38 PM
  #8  
Kat12
Full Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 313
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 419 Post(s)
Liked 378 Times in 278 Posts
It's a longer, heavier, more-unwieldy bike. Of course it's going to feel like more work to move. I have a friend with a tandem, and I live for the moment I get back on my own regular bike... it feels like a rocket compared to that two-person tank.
Kat12 is offline  
Old 05-30-21, 04:22 AM
  #9  
jccaclimber
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: SFBay
Posts: 2,334

Bikes: n, I would like n+1

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 127 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 133 Times in 108 Posts
I’m only an occasional tandem captain, but have noticed a few things compared to single riding:
1. The bike is heavier and takes a bit more steering effort. As a rock climber I consider my upper body to be in decent shape but my arms/hands are just a bit tired after a tandem
ride. This doesn’t happen after single rides. This is one way you might feel tired despite not having a higher power output/heart rate.
2. When accelerating I have an expectation for the rate I’ll speed up. If I don’t speed up at that rate I naturally push harder until I do. With a weaker (power per weight) I never make rate, so I always work a bit harder during those short bursts.
3. It is of course easier (power wise) to cruise on a flat. Weight doesn’t matter, power is increased more than drag, and no acceleration.
4. Also expected, harder up hills with a weaker stoker. Our combined team power per weight is lower than mine. I recently did a ride with a stoker who is stronger than me and everything was easier than on my single.
5. My general concentration level is higher because I can’t correct as quickly and because the consequences of crashing are higher with a stoker in my care.

I have spent some time riding solo on the bike and other than the slight weigh gain and longer wheelbase it’s not much different than a single.
jccaclimber is offline  
Old 05-30-21, 10:01 AM
  #10  
fooferdoggie 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 2,343
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 679 Post(s)
Liked 945 Times in 552 Posts
thanks all I think you have explained it. also the tandem was setup more as a cruiser bike so that may be why I can't spin as well on it either. I found I can put out the same watts. a short 20% grade hill we go up often and I go on my regular bike I put out pretty much the same watts climbing it between bikes. as much as I ride it is best I am not working as hard on the tandem or I would run out of energy.
Now how the assist works my wife can peddle and the front chainring will freewheel. it is only when I peddle the motor kicks in. it goes by torque not cadence. so the harder I peddle the more the motor puts out. like the lowest assist level is 80% over what I do and the highest is 315% so I may have to put out 400 watts to to use up all the assist or over 19mph.
on longer rides on my regular bike with hills and such I average about 155 watts. its a lot lower o the tandem.
since the cranks are not locked together we may never get super efficient. it would be great to have a setup with the motor in back but that prions the piece to around 8 grand or get a bike built for us. we enjoy the bike and ride the hell of it. we have so many steep hills in portland we have climbed for a hour and a half at 7 to 15% grade 16% grades with a fair amount of work and 20% grades for a block or two. we have gone light mountain biking on it too.
fooferdoggie is offline  
Old 05-31-21, 07:03 AM
  #11  
longpete
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
We also have a front motor.
I remind her a lot about the timing of the cranks. She has to ask me to stop pedalling in 9 o'clock position so that she can synchronize the cranks.
To be honest offroad I check myself a lot where if our cranks are synchronized.
When turning she does already without asking, but when pedalling she does not like to have to think about that.
Powerloss of not synchronized cranks, if there is any, will be minimal. But certainly offroad it's dangerous. Fortunately until now we had no problems when her pedals hit
the soil. But one day her pedal wil hit a rock and then it weill be risky.
Not synchronized cranks also have an effect on steering if she is pedalling hard.(then her upper body starts moving and i have to correct these weight shifts.
Like someone said before, tandeming is a more complet sport than solo biking. Frits days of a holliday the muscles i need to control and steer the tandem hurt in the evening.
My legs never.
longpete is offline  
Old 05-31-21, 08:38 AM
  #12  
longpete
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
We also have a front motor.
I remind her a lot about the timing of the cranks. She has to ask me to stop pedalling in 9 o'clock position so that she can synchronize the cranks.
To be honest offroad I check myself a lot where if our cranks are synchronized.
When turning she does already without asking, but when pedalling she does not like to have to think about that.
Powerloss of not synchronized cranks, if there is any, will be minimal. But certainly offroad it's dangerous. Fortunately until now we had no problems when her pedals hit
the soil. But one day her pedal wil hit a rock and then it weill be risky.
Not synchronized cranks also have an effect on steering if she is pedalling hard.(then her upper body starts moving and i have to correct these weight shifts.
Like someone said before, tandeming is a more complet sport than solo biking. Frits days of a holliday the muscles i need to control and steer the tandem hurt in the evening.
My legs never.
longpete is offline  
Old 05-31-21, 08:40 AM
  #13  
fooferdoggie 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 2,343
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 679 Post(s)
Liked 945 Times in 552 Posts
with us it would be impossible to keep them in sync. jsut getting the rearing ice is almost impossible. she is 4 rpms slower then me. it use to be 10 rpms faster and for some reason they had 175 cranks in back.
fooferdoggie is offline  
Old 05-31-21, 08:50 AM
  #14  
GhostRider62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2332 Post(s)
Liked 2,094 Times in 1,311 Posts
It is taking you fewer watts but it feels like more work?

Easy.......your stoker is a beast. It feels like more work keeping the bike straight and tracking.
GhostRider62 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.