FreeRideJunkie

Hey everyone!

I did post a brief introduction but wanted to let everyone in the "Classic and Vintage" section know that it was actually you guys that brought me back to this forum after about 7 years away. I was a member somewhere around 10 years ago and somehow drifted away. (At least I'm pretty sure this was the forum. Honestly, who knows at this point.) Anyway, I come seeking knowledge. I have two gorgeous bikes from the 70's that I would like some more information on. I purchased them from the original owner when he came into my shop to sell them, and a portion of that sale went to charity. Now, while I have treasured them, cleaned them, and ridden them just a bit, I feel that it may be time to let them go. I recently moved across the country and my living situation is sort of month to month as I settle into the job market and network my way into my career field. (Earth Sciences and Environmental Sustainability degree along with my love for skiing and mountain biking brought me to Colorado.) I currently have these in a storage unit but I don't want to risk damaging them during all of my moves. At the same time, I don't want to just unload them to someone who "wants a cool old bike" because I feel that their condition and originality makes them a bit of a gem. I don't think they should be wall hangers, but they should certainly be very carefully cared for to keep them as original as possible.

That said... what year are these? I have certainly heard of each of the component groups, stronglight cranks, rigida wheels, etc. but I don't know where these parts, frames, complete bikes, etc. rank in terms of rarity or how they should be valued in today's market. I've taken a good number of detailed pictures so hopefully this is enough for you to help me out.

Thank you in advance and I can't wait to learn a little more about them.

Austro Daimler Inter-10, Reynolds 531, Huret and Stronglight:

This things sparkles in the sun:

FreeRideJunkie

And last but certainly not least...

The Motobecane Grand Record, suntour, 600 brakes and dura ace crank?:















The only issue I would even begin to call "major" on either bike is the left hand hood on the Motobecane. You can see that the lower portion dried slightly and sort of cracked off. I left the intact portion of the hood for the time being.

FreeRideJunkie

Again, as far as I can tell both bikes are completely original. I can't tell if the tires were replaced and I haven't pulled them to check the tubes yet. The original owner and his wife both rode these and raced them a "couple of times" according to him. Brake pads and chain even look original or at the very least, correct to the period. For the sake of complete transparency they seat post binder bold on the Motobecane has also been replaced. The original bolt had a bit of knurling that had slightly corroded and it snapped under very low torque when I was checking to see if the seat posts were free. (And they are.) I have the pieces of the original bolt around here somewhere and I've found an OEM replacement several times on ebay for around $5-15 if that ends up being the one part that's been changed.

Thanks again for any info you can provide. I'd love to hear an estimate on each bike as a whole since parting those out would be a crime.

Cheers

TugaDude

Moto G.R. Is definitely not all original. Wrong saddle, brakes, Superbe FD, all wrong. Also, I can't seem to find any pics of a predominantly red G.R. I own a 1975 G.J. That looks identical framewise to your G.R. And is predominantly red. G.R.s were typically Black in the mid 70s, with red accents.

I'm wondering if this is a respray. What's up with the colored screw in the rear dropout? Matches perfectly but should be chrome I would think. Saddle should be Brooks Pro.

3alarmer 

...I'm relatively sure they came in that red color with black accents, sort of a mirror image of the more common
black with red accents........also in silver, FWIW.

I'm currently restoring one of the commoner black/red ones. Centerpull Weinmann brakes, Campy Record shifters, of course.
Thats what made a Grand Record a Record, not a Jubilee........ those are the original hubs, might be the original wheels.

The original crank was a TA, not a Dura Ace. (again FWIW)

3alarmer 

...oh yeah, I paid 300 bucks for mine, here in California. But I'm gonna have to rebuild the wheels.

I know little about value on the AD, and have never owned one......no idea of the originality.

FreeRideJunkie

This is why I'm here! And I don't really think it is a respray judging by the one small chip on the downtube, though that tensioner bolt in the drive-side dropout does have me a little concerned. I could certainly be wrong though. A swapped saddle at some point certainly seems to make sense, especially since that was the bike that his wife rode. Did all of the Motobecane Grand Records in the 70's use Campy lugs? At least those dropout lugs are Campy.

Edit: And I meant not that it wasn't a respray because of the chip, but rather that the paint seems to be either factory or they did a very good job stripping it before any respray. Then again the age on the 531 decal/embossing on the seat tube would seem to show the appropriate aging for original paint?

3alarmer 

...in general, a bike that has components not only from different eras, but also different manufacturers (Shimano 600, Shimano Dura Ace ,Suntour
in your case) usually turns out to have been somewhat modified along the way. nttawwt But if originality is your preference, there are plenty of
reference catalog and vintage photo sites you can Google up to get an idea of how this stuff came from the maker.

Motobecane was a little different from the other French makers in terms of their variations on component groups over the years.

I, too, think your paint original, but a lot of the other stuff is not.

FreeRideJunkie

How did the condition compare aside from the wheels?? If I decide to let them go they will be in the Denver/Boulder area. The market sure seems to be pretty strong here.

FreeRideJunkie

And I guess if I get original paint OR original parts I'll take the gorgeous frame with a seemingly nice mix of other reasonably high end components from the time period. (And because that's what I seem to have... at least on the Motobecane.)

Definitely can't wait to hear a few other opinions though. :-)

3alarmer 

...good paint, original components. Wheels worked, but were aesthetically displeasing to me.

3alarmer 

...no offense intended, but you seem much more intent on resale value than the bike.

I try to stay out of those threads, because bike flippers make me anxious. It's just me.

FreeRideJunkie

I'm sorry that you feel that way, but how did that last message give you that impression? I've worked at shops on and off for over 10 years. I've certainly sold a few things along the way but I'm more of an enthusiast and a collector. Before I moved out of the midwest I donated at least $1500 worth of quality used parts to my local co-op. I've saved and repurposed bikes that would have otherwise been thrown away. These are actually the first two really clean classic bikes that I've had a chance to own, that actually (just about) fit me. (I'm 6'3")
I really am just interested in learning more about them. Part of that learning is an accurate value so that if I do have to, or choose to, sell them in the future I have some idea of what they're worth. I put more miles on the Austro-Daimler over the last few months before I moved than any of my other bikes, even my race/training bike. It's like riding a sofa.

FreeRideJunkie

To add to this... while I may know a little about each of the components, I don't know a lot about the bikes as a whole. How do I figure out what year they actually are? Are the serial numbers useful at all? I know that some companies had a good system while others may well have just been random numbers. Since this really does look like factory paint on the Motobecane... why the color difference from the more common black-dominant one? I have seen some pictures of red ones but the majority are certainly black with red lug work.

big chainring 

Each of those bikes should bring around $400. The condition of each is something you dont find often. Paint on both bikes is amazing.

Vintage bike guys love old Moto Grand Records. But the Austro Daimler is a real prize. Looks original or mostly original and that paint job is magnificent!

Also the AD is topped with an Ideale 90 saddle. Those are highly regarded and easily sell for $100+. The example on your bike with its exceptional patina would sell for well over that.

Chicago Al 

The Grand Record has most of its running gear replaced, including the Campagnolo shifters and derailleurs that gave it the 'Record' name. What's on there now is an mix of Suntour and Shimano, with apparently a Sachs/Huret freewheel (at least the 'pie plate'). While these parts are arguably as good as what they replaced, and the work looks very neat, it's hard to see they would give any advantage. Why would anyone do such work on a bike that appears almost unridden?

3alarmer 

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vi...cane-fans.html

FreeRideJunkie

Thank you so much! That thread is going to be a rabbit hole that I'm going to finish digging through after my shift at the shop today. It looks like in the mid to late 70's Motobecane started switching to a Shimano-dominant group. It's also interesting that I saw several brand of lugs, but not Campagnolo listed at all. Did Campagnolo make a full frame lug set or is it likely that just the dropouts on the Motobecane are Campy?

And yeah... between the two the Austro Daimler is actually my favorite. It looks brown in the picture but in the sun it just sparkles a beautiful, deep, almost burgundy, brown. It is also the slightly larger of the two so I was able to ride it very comfortably. I took it on a few of our local group rides and most were shocked how easily I kept up on it and it definitely got more looks than even the the fancy Di2 bikes at the time. Unfortunately, while I was moving, something did slide across the top of the saddle and put a 2" x 1/2" scuff or scrape on it. I was really sad when I pulled it out of the van but the only thing I can do is keep the bike from being damaged further. I will try to post an updated picture of the saddle to see if there are any sort of "restoration" methods to try to minimize the damage that was incurred.

FreeRideJunkie

That was definitely my thought, and the main reason that I believed the original owners story. I'm still not sure I was lied to. With a little bit of digging it looks like the Grand Records in France may have started seeing some Shimano 600 parts before we saw them here in the US. Perhaps this has something to do with it? Everything just looks so clean, yet aged appropriately so I'm really hesitant to say "His wife must have wanted to swap everything just a year or two after getting the bike". I really wish that I still had the original owner's phone number but unfortunately some things just disappear when you're cleaning out a house and moving.

mparker326

I would part out the MB because those components are going to prevent someone from paying a high price for the bike. You will probably net more anyway.

Love the AD. I would keep that. You won't find many of those esp. In that condition.

Chicago Al 

As far as I've found, there is just one French Motobecane catalog available online, and it's from the 80s. There's also one British market catalog. And (from my memory) neither of them has a model called the Grand Record. I've read on the old bikelist email group that US importer Ben Lawee heavily influenced the bikes that were put together for the US market; people talked about him specifying components and colors, to hit certain price points and have the right 'eye candy'. He had also imported Bianchi for a while, and later went on to have the Univega brand which was completely built to his specs. So it's my surmise that the 'Grand Record,' specced with Campagnolo shifters and derailleurs and dropouts but not Campy otherwise, and the 'Grand Jubile,' with Huret Jubile dropouts and running gear, were his way of using those names to appeal to customers while also making them relatively affordable, unlike, say, an all-Campy bike would be. As the 70s went on, Japanese parts started showing up on Motobecane, well before other Euro brands were using them, and I bet Lawee was influential there, too.

My '74 Grand Record came (per the catalog) with a Nitto stem and bars, so when I got it with 80s black-anodized bars and stem--and the drivetrain replaced with Suntour--I found the 'correct' Nitto and Campy parts for it, as I suspect most people who would want a Grand Record would do. But I've also made changes to it to get it 'just right.'

TugaDude

You would never find Campagnolo lugs on a Moto. If Campy made lugs, it would have been pretty rare. They were mainly a component supplier, the exception being dropouts and fork ends.

FreeRideJunkie

If I sell either of them I doubt I will part them out. Even if the parts on the Motobecane turn out to be aftermarket they are still period correct and the bike is still beautiful. It would be a shame for it to not be ridden and appreciated as is. Now that's not to say that the parts wouldn't be appreciated, but there is nothing wrong with the bike. If there were something major that were broken or missing I probably wouldn't have snagged it in the first place. If I end up in a position where I only get to keep one bike, it will be the Austro-Daimler. I have seen a few Grand Records but never another Inter-10 that is anywhere near that condition. I do swap the post to a longer one when I ride the AD and the drop to the bars is insane. I feel like I'm on my track bike but the ride isn't jarring.

Fahrenheit531 

The Austro-Diamler is unreal. Like out of a time machine.

FreeRideJunkie

That seems pretty accurate. I'm still going to be doing some research on the Motobecane. I'm slowly making friends in Colorado who are active in the cycling community. I'm still not 100% convinced that the Motobecane does not have original components on it. I had a very long conversation with the previous owner when I bought the bikes off of him and he stated they were original. (Obviously he could have forgotten but he seemed to care about the bikes too much to just blatantly lie to me about them.) From about '76-'80 it looks like there is a transition from a full Campy Record group to at least a mix of Shimano 600. My Grand Record is also painted exactly like a '76 Jubile but I haven't seen another Grand Record like it. I really am wondering if this bike tucks into that time period somewhere and really did end up with a mixed component set part of the way through a model year? I've had new bikes come in from manufacturers with certain components from a different generation due to a shortage or incompatibility. Is it possible that Motobecane was dealing with a supply issue of any sort at the time or would have swapped out the parts when the customer ordered them at the time? He stated that he and his wife both raced a little and maybe she wanted the "Newer Japanese parts"?