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Touring Bikes with Cantilever Brakes

Old 10-24-22, 04:57 PM
  #151  
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Originally Posted by Yan View Post
ts;dnr
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Old 10-25-22, 12:03 AM
  #152  
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Well this has been a fun thread to read thru. Cycco kills em like no other.

Yan, cyccommute, Tourist in MSN
A 135mm hubs is the same as a 142mm hub. Just mentioning since so much of the second half of this thread is arguing over spoke tension. A 142mm hub isn't wider than a 135mm hub at the spoke lacing.
The extra 3.5mm on each side of a 142mm hub is just extra spindle length to fit into the thru axle dropout.

This is why many 142mm TA hubs are easily converted to 135mm QR with a couple of caps.
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Old 10-25-22, 01:20 AM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Well this has been a fun thread to read thru. Cycco kills em like no other.

Yan, cyccommute, Tourist in MSN
A 142mm hub isn't wider than a 135mm hub at the spoke lacing.
No, this depends on the manufacturer and product line. The Shimano R7000 series sibling models discussed here are wider at the spoke lacing for the 142mm version. Check the values in the spoke calc screenshots.

A lazier manufacturer can certainly keep the shell the same. Do your research before purchasing.
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Old 10-25-22, 05:33 AM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Well this has been a fun thread to read thru. Cycco kills em like no other.

Yan, cyccommute, Tourist in MSN
A 135mm hubs is the same as a 142mm hub. Just mentioning since so much of the second half of this thread is arguing over spoke tension. A 142mm hub isn't wider than a 135mm hub at the spoke lacing.
The extra 3.5mm on each side of a 142mm hub is just extra spindle length to fit into the thru axle dropout.

This is why many 142mm TA hubs are easily converted to 135mm QR with a couple of caps.
Originally Posted by Yan View Post
No, this depends on the manufacturer and product line. The Shimano R7000 series sibling models discussed here are wider at the spoke lacing for the 142mm version. Check the values in the spoke calc screenshots.

A lazier manufacturer can certainly keep the shell the same. Do your research before purchasing.
I think we are arguing about minor details.

As I noted in a post several days ago:

Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
...
...
My Lynskey Backroad was designed for interchangeable rear dropouts, each dropout is held in with two 4mm screws. That frame can be fitted with one set of dropouts as a 135mm conventional hub frame, with the other set of dropouts is a 142mm through axle frame. I have the 135mm conventional dropouts, ...
If you want to argue about comparing hub shell shapes from one model of hub to shell shapes for another model of hubs, I think that is comparing apples and oranges. And I will not participate in any such arguments.

Have a nice day everyone.
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Old 10-26-22, 09:09 AM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by phughes View Post
OMG You just cannot stop. You have a serious problem with understanding a simple point. If a bearing is lubed, it will not pit. That is what I said. I also mentioned contamination, but you seem to not be able to see that.
And what about your own inability to understand a simple point? If lubricant is all that is needed to prevent cone pitting, why has Shimano spent so much time, effort, and money developing ever more elaborate sealing systems? I see lots and lots of hubs from various ages in Shimano’s line and can (almost) date them from just their seals alone. Pre-mountain bike, they are basically unsealed. Then there is the rubber seal in the dust cover. Then there is small rubber grommets. And then larger rubber grommets and labyrinth seals.

Interestingly, the need for replacement cones have decreases as the seals get better. Seems there is something to all that work on sealing the hubs.
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Old 10-26-22, 09:16 AM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
If you want to argue about comparing hub shell shapes from one model of hub to shell shapes for another model of hubs, I think that is comparing apples and oranges. And I will not participate in any such arguments.

Have a nice day everyone.
Well, itís comparing cheese to chalk because apples can be compared to oranges according the Annals of Improbable Research. But this is a thing he does. I gave him a direct comparison that he asked for and he didnít like it.
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Old 10-26-22, 03:18 PM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Well, itís comparing cheese to chalk because apples can be compared to oranges according the Annals of Improbable Research. .
Well, thank God we got that cleared up, at least. 😁 And thanks to Bruce Wayne, as well, wherever he is. 😉
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Old 10-26-22, 06:20 PM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
Thorn Nomad Mk III can be fitted with canti brakes (or V brakes) or disc. But they are not cheap. If you are in USA, the strong dollar makes them a bit cheaper now they they were in the past.
I'm very impressed by the Nomad Mk III. It looks like it could do everything I want, and much more. I wasn't really aware of Thorn before, so thanks for the tip.

Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
Good call. And the OP wanted a large size, they show 64cm size in two colors.

And it is a nine speed cassette.

The only downside I see is a 130mm spaced rear hub, but if you keep your weight down that should not be a problem. A steel frame tfor that large of a size might be a bit soft, but great price and if the weight is kept to a minimum it could be great.
Thanks, this looks like another decent option I hadn't heard of, and the 64cm would fit me pretty well.
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Old 10-26-22, 06:23 PM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53 View Post
Here's what an indestructible tour bike looks like. The front SA XL dyno DRUM brake has been 100% reliable in any weather for 10 years/ 29,000 miles. ZERO worries or fiddling. Overheating/ fade seems to be a laughable concept with this hub. Cable TRP Spyre with the Rohloff14. I changed the resin pads at 5,300 miles. I made the mount and adapter myself. Seat tube is wrapped in CF. It goes easier every day. The newest chain was never cleaned/ lubbed in over 2 years/ 3,000 miles. Bike was 120 lbs on both tours. LOL.
This year I was testing the drum brakes on both wheels from 40 mph to zero. 100% perfect controlled stop.
I might be showing my age, but I hadn't even considered drum brakes as an option. I'm definitely intrigued, and will do some more research. That looks like a pretty sweet machine
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Old 10-26-22, 06:34 PM
  #160  
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
I respond to this more for the hope that mr elmo reads this--Nyah, what you are describing is rotor/pad rub, due to misalignment. I have a QR disc bike and if properly tightened and aligned , I do not have rotor rub.
As you say, TA eliminates the fudging around with aligning the wheel jjjjuuuuusssst right. I personally dont have a problem with getting a qr just right, but my wife and others I know just either don't have the patience or the eyesight to get it millimetre right.
Brake noise that Mr Ellmo is talking about is probably more about squeal , or maybe just the noise that disc brakes make with more metallic pads, kinda scratchy sounding---but I can't guess what either of you are meaning, so all I can say is that annoying disc brake noises due to contaminated rotors or pads are just that, common, and it doesn't make a jot of difference if its QR or TA.

I've had extremely annoying disc squeal before due to some sort of contamination, and finally got rid of it, and get how it can drive you nuts--but like any new mechanical ability to learn to deal with, it just takes time and experience, and especially to be more careful of not contaminating pads or rotors. Some people are just klutz's and aren't careful with spraying wd-40 or touching stuff with greasy fingers, but thats up to them to learn, or not.

in the end, disc brakes can be great for touring, I'm sold on them, but I readily admit that 1- I toured on rims for decades, still ride rim bikes regularly, 2- I had to gradually learn to deal with disc issues, with some frustrations at times over the last 6 years, but 3- boy do they make slowing down a touring bike easier and you don't have to keep rims and pads clean after riding in rain or on dirt roads.
Yeah, I'm definitely pretty careless with my dirty hands when I work on my bike, and I've contaminated discs as a result. So a lot of my noise woes are probably self-inflicted. I figure mistakes are inevitable during roadside maintenance, and I'd rather not pay a price for accidentally touching the wrong part of my bike.

Originally Posted by djb View Post
good luck again TicklemeElmo finding a large frame---what size do you need btw?
Thanks, and something around 63cm would be a good fit.
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Old 10-26-22, 06:46 PM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by RH Clark View Post
Go over to the Classic and Vintage forum and enlist those guys to help you locate a used deal. They are good at it and seem to enjoy helping you spend your money.
good tip, I think I'll do that. I had no idea this forum was so active when I joined.
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Old 10-26-22, 08:36 PM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by elmo449 View Post
Yeah, I'm definitely pretty careless with my dirty hands when I work on my bike, and I've contaminated discs as a result. So a lot of my noise woes are probably self-inflicted. I figure mistakes are inevitable during roadside maintenance, and I'd rather not pay a price for accidentally touching the wrong part of my bike.
Thanks, and something around 63cm would be a good fit.
I suspect that most people have made mistakes, but we do learn to be more careful, it's doable. When my front disc was making terrible squealing, I tried all kinds of stuff, and eventually sorted it out, and learned all the various tricks to do.
Before that, there were times things were noisy, and then just stopped on their own, so I guess I'm less worried about my disc bike, as I've slowly figured out how to deal with things--but I readily admit I was frustrated at times early on--but I do like working on bikes and figuring out things on my own, so once I got the whole centering calipers properly, changing pads, dealing with slight pad contaminations a few times (using alcohol to clean them, burning them with a propane torch, sanding them a wee bit) and even very very lightly sanding my rotor to even out accumulated "wavey" pad material that I think was the main cause for a super loud squeal---I'm somewhat more confident of being able to deal with stuff.

but ya, rim brakes work pretty good too, you still have to position pads properly, toe-in and all that, plus keeping rims and pads clean.
but whatever works.

and ya, around here, you don't see 63cm used touring bikes that much.
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Old 10-27-22, 04:08 AM
  #163  
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Originally Posted by elmo449 View Post
I'm very impressed by the Nomad Mk III. It looks like it could do everything I want, and much more. I wasn't really aware of Thorn before, so thanks for the tip.
....
But, keep in mind my other comment: The Nomads are heavy bikes, but if you are a large person, they are quite stiff and can carry a load without feeling like a wet noodle. I have loaded up a LOT of stuff on my Nomad Mk II and it handled a load quite well.

My Nomad Mk II when unladen is a bit over 40 pounds, it is not a lightweight. That said, this is what it was designed for:



Thorns are only sold at their single retail store, but I suspect most are sold over the internet. I have never been to the UK but I have two Thorns. The first, I bought the frame used from someone in Canada that had bought the wrong size. My second, I bought new over the internet.

I had to pay customs duty on the new frame that was shipped from the UK, but that frame had S&S couplers that raise the price by a significant margin. If you buy a complete bike instead of frame and fork, the customs duty would be higher.
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Old 10-27-22, 02:16 PM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Well, it’s comparing cheese to chalk because apples can be compared to oranges according the Annals of Improbable Research. But this is a thing he does. I gave him a direct comparison that he asked for and he didn’t like it.
I have no problem with people who demonstrate true knowledge and contribute facts. What I don't like are psycho gaslighters who shape shift every time they are proven wrong to their face, evade by claiming their mistakes are not really mistakes, and move the goal posts after every defeat to hide their lack of knowledge. I tried very patiently to teach you about Shimano freehub standards, and also explain to you how hub shell design affects spoke angle, but in the end all my effort got was a "no, you didn’t correct me because my information was not significantly incorrect. It makes little difference and what little difference it does make is for the worse."

Of course... of course... It's "not significantly incorrect", "it makes little difference"... whatever you say... It's only the VERY THING that is CENTRAL to the whole hub standard vs spoke tension discussion LOL! And no it is not "for the worse". It is for the better. These are clear as day written in black and white facts that anybody who has built a wheel knows. You are a wheel builder so you OBVIOUSLY know. So why are you saying this? It boggles the mind that someone can be so shameless that they would openly attempt to claim that black and white and white is black. I get we are living in a post-truth political environment, but is OPEN LYING spreading even to Bike Forums? What the hell??? How do you come here with a straight face and pretend you can get away with this kind of manipulation?

This is exactly the kind of gaslighting I'm talking about. Buddy, you're either correct or you're incorrect. Stop with the psychopath attempts at doing a reverse-uno on truth. It is repulsive and makes you look ridiculous. Arguing with you is like confronting an amoeba. Every time someone tries to explain something patiently to you and establishes a fact you can no longer refute, you just withdraw by squirting out yet more slime. I thought we had moved on from this hub topic, but when I came back I saw that you had immediately gotten into another fight with Phuges, and you drove him so insane that he had to block you. What is it with your toxic personality that causes everyone here to can't stand you? And then right afterwards you come back and try to start with me again. Why???

If you don't want to learn from others and fill your knowledge gaps, then why do you even come to Bike Forums? You just come here because you enjoy arguing with people or what? When one person moves on you immediately start seeking out another person? What the hell is wrong with you man.

Don't forget track bikes use 120mm dropouts. Yes, those wheels are have symmetrical dishing, but those guys are 200lb bodyweight alone, squat 500lbs, and put out over 2000 watts which is over ten times what a regular cyclist pushes. They thrash their bikes around harder than anyone else and their wheels are completely fine.

Last edited by Yan; 10-27-22 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 10-27-22, 05:51 PM
  #165  
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Don’t you just love someone who loudly proclaims

Originally Posted by Yan View Post

Feel free to get the last word, I'm finished with talking to a joke.
And they comes on back. I keep tellin’ ya folks, fasten your seat belts!

Originally Posted by Yan View Post
I have no problem with people who demonstrate true knowledge and contribute facts. What I don't like are psycho gaslighters who shape shift every time they are proven wrong to their face, evade by claiming their mistakes are not really mistakes, and move the goal posts after every defeat to hide their lack of knowledge. I tried very patiently to teach you about Shimano freehub standards, and also explain to you how hub shell design affects spoke angle, but in the end all my effort got was a "no, you didn’t correct me because my information was not significantly incorrect. It makes little difference and what little difference it does make is for the worse."
Go read posts 107 and 112. I provided you with information to show that you are the one with the incorrect facts. I was not wrong. You are. And when it is demonstrated that you are wrong, you hurl insults. Yes, you are correct that there is a slight difference in freehub standards. The above posts indicate that those changes have little impact.

Of course... of course... It's "not significantly incorrect", "it makes little difference"... whatever you say... It's only the VERY THING that is CENTRAL to the whole hub standard vs spoke tension discussion LOL! And no it is not "for the worse". It is for the better. These are clear as day written in black and white facts that anybody who has built a wheel knows. You are a wheel builder so you OBVIOUSLY know. So why are you saying this? It boggles the mind that someone can be so shameless that they would openly attempt to claim that black and white and white is black. I get we are living in a post-truth political environment, but is OPEN LYING spreading even to Bike Forums? What the hell??? Buddy, you're either correct or you're incorrect. Just be a man and move on. Stop with the psychopath attempts at doing a reverse-uno on on truth. This kind of behavior is repulsive, and writhing like this just makes yourself look ridiculous.
I have no idea what you are going on about. Look at the tension differential in the posts above again. Yes, it is in black and white and you aren’t understanding what you are looking at. Where have I lied? Prove it! I used the same calculator you used. You keep wanting to make some different point than what you originally made. I explained what the difference between a 130mm hub and a 135mm hub is and you have not provided anything to the conversation to say otherwise.

I provided you with an example comparing two hubs from the same manufacturer which show the tension difference between a 130mm and 135mm and you ignored it. I provided the tension difference between the examples you provided and included new information on another hub by the same manufacturer that shows an even larger tension difference than between the 130mm and 142mm hub and you start Gish Galloping. The values are in the posts above. If you think they are different, show how.

This is exactly the kind of gaslighting I'm talking about. Arguing with you is like confronting an amoeba. Every time someone tries to explain something patiently to you and establishes a fact you can no longer refute, you just withdraw by squirting out yet more slime. I thought we had moved on from this hub topic, but when I came back I saw that you had immediately gotten into another fight with Phuges, and you drove him so insane that he had to block you.
Well, I wouldn’t call it gaslighting. The problem is that every time you try to explain something you are simply wrong…demonstrably wrong. If you were right, I would pay attention but you usually aren’t right and only end up going for insults when shown the error of your point.

I don’t have to agree with everything that is stated on Bike Forums nor do I expect everyone to agree with me. I don’t agree with what Phuges says because my experience is different from his.

​​​​​​What is it with your toxic personality that causes everyone here to can't stand you? And then right afterwards you come back and try to start with me again. If you don't want to learn from others and fill your knowledge gaps, then why do you even come to Bike Forums? You just come here because you enjoy arguing with people or what? When one person moves on you immediately start seeking out another person?
There are only some people I argue with. I have discussions with others. I learn lots of stuff from my discussions. The only problem with discussions with you is that there is nothing there to learn.



​​​​​​​I don't know if your avatar pic is an actual photo of you. Apparently you're a middle aged man? What the hell is wrong with you man. Are you like this in real life, and how do you get people to stand being near you?
Yes, that is my picture and that is my actual full name at the bottom of my posts in my signature. I’m not afraid to stand behind what I say. Yet again, I’m not nearly as stupid as you think I am.

​​​​​​​And if you're going to do what you do, at least be correct! Don't come in here as a fake expert with a bunch of incorrect opinions, polluting the forum archives with bad advice for others to find in the future. NO! 130mm dropout bikes are not weak for heavy loads.
That’s rich coming from our previous discussions. I did not say what you said I said…I could say something about lies and gaslighting or whatever but won’t. I’ll remind you that the original question from Doug64 was

Originally Posted by Doug64 View Post
What is the downside of 130 v.s 135 mm rear dropouts.
I did not say that 130mm hubs are weak for heavy loads. I said that 135mm hubs are stronger for heavy loads because of their increased width and decreased dish. Nothing you have said is contrary to that statement.

Don't forget track bikes use 120mm dropouts. Yes, those wheels are have symmetrical dishing, but those guys are 200lb bodyweight alone, squat 500lbs, and put out over 2000 watts which is over ten times what a regular cyclist pushes. They thrash their bikes around harder than anyone else and their wheels are completely fine.
And here we go again with the cheese to chalk comparison. You know what? Front wheels are even narrower even on heavily loaded rim brake bikes. Front wheels never have spoke problems. Even when you put a load on them with low riders they don’t have a problem with being weak despite their much narrower profile. Even those track riders that thrash their bikes don’t have front wheel problems. Why is that? Because the wheel is symmetrical…i.e. not dished… with the same tension between both sides and is inherently stronger. Track rear wheels have minimal dishing so the spoke tension differential is minimal.

And, before you Gish Galloping off into the sunset, I know that “never” is relative when it comes to front wheel spoke problems. But it is extremely rare to run across a broken front spoke.

​​​​​​​I also can assure you that I am well respected in my bicycling community. The co-ops I volunteer at value my knowledge and experience. The thousands…yes, literally thousands…of people I have help with their bike repairs value my knowledge and experience. The hundreds of people I have taught bicycle mechanics to value my experience and some of them have even gone on to be experienced mechanics…including paid mechanics…in their own right. Even people here on the Bike Forums value my knowledge, experience, and insights. I don’t need your validation, thank you very much.
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Old 10-27-22, 06:27 PM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
...
I went back and softened my tone a bit. I'm sorry.

Yes, you found a pair of hubs with larger spoke balance difference. You don't need to repeat yourself, I saw it. But I already responded to this with an explanation for why these hubs are one way and why the Shimano hubs are another way, and also explained to you the reasoning behind the hub design decisions. It is my post #116. Scroll back and read it again.

Regarding 120mm track hub spacing being strong, I anticipated that you would try to muddy the waters with the tension balance argument. Low non drive side tension only matters when that side's spoke tension is able to become so low that the spokes can self loosen during riding. If you have built your wheel with sufficiently high tension in all spokes, this will never happen even with the most lopsided wheel. At that point the tension balance would not cause wheel failure. If it is as you claim that left-right tension balance was the end all be all, then we could have simply made the non drive side a mirror of the drive side. At that point we would be riding on a skinny wheel with little triangulation, but since the two sides are perfectly symmetrical according to your theory it would be fine right? So why don't we do this? Or alternatively, if you select an arbitrary tension imbalance as a reasonable limit, let's say 70%, then on all hubs we could simply move the non drive side flange toward the centerline until this 70% is achieved. So again, why don't hub designers do this? It's because as long as the builder is skilled enough to build the wheel with sufficient overall tension to prevent spontaneous non drive side unwinding, the imbalance will not lead to unwanted spoke tension changes.

Again, I point to DT Swiss hubs that have larger flanges on the non drive side. Example linked below. This flange design intentionally makes the tension imbalance worse, with the benefit of allowing same spoke lengths on both sides. This is a mountain bike hub so it is intended for rough treatment. If spoke tension balance was the end all be all, then why is this hub design still being sold? DT Swiss is a major manufacturer, not an amateur backyard shop. They sell A LOT of hubs. If these wheels are coming back with a high failure rate, this hub design would have long been taken off the market. Personally I find this hub design a bit laughable, but nevertheless, it has been working out for DT Swiss for a long time.

https://northwestbicycle.com/product...0s-cass-j38687
​​​
This all goes back to your claim that 130mm wheels are weaker compared to 135mm for heavy loads. This is simply bad information. We're talking about a 2.5mm movement on each side. As you can see from the above hub, that larger flange is making the spoke angle WAY worse than a 2.5mm lateral shift. You claim to be a wheelbuilder so why am I having to explain all of the above few paragraphs to you?

Let us meet in the middle and agree to agree: I will say again, as I have said all along, that yes, all else being equal when you go from 130mm to 135mm, you will have a superior tension balance. I have never disputed this even in my very first post. If you recall I showed the Shimano sibling models, and there the wider hub had a few % better tension balance. Nowhere did I say that the 135mm hub would have the exact same tension balance as the narrower hub. Then where we disagree is that you think this is a big deal whereas I think it is negligible. Here it is a matter of personal view. What one person considers life or death another person can think doesn't matter at all. There's not much to argue about here. If you feel the need to limit your touring bikes to a certain drop out standard or a certain hub selection, and you think you can only build touring wheels within these criteria, then fine. I disagree and think I can build strong wheels on all hubs, but since we are not building bikes for each other neither of us need to be bothered. We can simply each ride our own bikes that we have built ourselves and move on.

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Old 10-27-22, 07:52 PM
  #167  
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Originally Posted by Yan View Post
There is is again with that psycho gaslighting and blatantly attempting to change history, calling right wrong and wrong right. Pretending your position was A when in reality it was B, sneakily shifting your position when it becomes untenable and then immediately claiming to have never changed your position all along. Refusing to admit you made a mistake, and when forced to admit, immediately claim the mistake was irrelevant even though it was a critical error central to the topic. Deflection, diversion, evasion. Story as old as time with you.
My position has been the same since my initial response to Doug64. It has not changed. The mistake I made was, in fact, minor and has very little impact on the spoke tension. Different hubs can be compared in terms of spoke tension differentials. They really are apple to apple comparisons. You keep making a mountain out of a very small molehill.

Yes, you found a pair of hubs with larger spoke balance difference. You don't need to repeat yourself because I already responded to this with an explanation for why these hubs are one way and why the Shimano hubs are another way, and also explained to you the reason behind this and the relative characteristics of each hub design. It is my post #116. Scroll back and read it again. Boring...
I read your post 116. It was only borderline understandable and wasnít relevant. Iíll remind you that you said in post 110

Originally Posted by Yan View Post
ÖOf course then the spoke angle would be better. But what kind of fake comparison is that??? Stay in the SAME freehub length, THEN compare!
I gave you a comparison that used the same freewheel length but different OLD. The result, Iíll remind you, is that the tension differential between the 130mm and 135mm hub was the same 10 percentage points as comparing the (slightly) longer 105 freehub bodied hub to a shorter XT freehub bodied hub. And only 3 percentage points higher than your comparison. Your comparison of FH-R7000 to the FH-R7070 has itís own problems since you are comparing a disc hub to a rim brake hub. The disc fittings change the flange spacing.

I gave you a comparison and you Gish galloped away as fast as you could.


​​​​​​​Regarding 120mm track hub spacing being strong, I anticipated that you would try to muddy the waters with the tension balance argument.
Low non drive side tension only matters when that side's spoke tension is able to become so low that the spokes can self loosen during riding. If you have built your wheel with sufficiently high tension in all spokes, this will never happen even with the most lopsided wheel. At that point the tension balance is unimportant. The wheel can be strong regardless.
ďMuddy the watersĒ says the guy with the chicken and the 12 aligators. Do you not understand wheel dynamics? It doesnít matter how tight you make the spokes. There will always be a difference between the spoke tension on the drive vs non-drive side. That difference is always important and is independent of the wheel build quality. I donít know why I have to even explain this to you.

​​​​​​​If it is as you claim that left-right tension balance was the end all be all, then we could have simply made the non drive side a mirror of the drive side. At that point we would be riding on a skinny wheel with little triangulation, but since the two sides are perfectly symmetrical according to your theory it would be fine right?
Oh, you are soooo close to understanding. Yes, if we made the nondrive side mirror the drive side we would have stronger wheels. Thatís the whole point of wider hubs. Iíll remind you want Nobi saidÖagainÖ

​​​​​​​These wider hubs built stronger, stiffer wheels that reclaimed the lateral stiffness that had been lost when wheel sizes increased.
The wider hubs allow for more closely matched tension. Off-center rims do the same. It makes for closer symmetry of the wheel and, thus, a stronger wheel.

​​​​​​​So why don't we do this?
Because we squish a whole bunch of cogs into the space on one side of the hub to make our riding easier. I would have thought it was obvious. A 157mm super duper mega special boost hub that Nobi references would be closer to symetrical. The Hadly FOES 160mm hub has 33mm from each flange to center and 47mm between the flanges and lock nut. Of course thatís a really, really wide rear triangle.

​​​​​​​Or alternatively, if you select an arbitrary tension imbalance as a reasonable limit, let's say 70%, then on all hubs we could simply move the non drive side flange toward the centerline until this 70% is achieved. So again, why don't hub designers do this? It's because as long as the builder is skilled enough to build the wheel with sufficient overall tension to prevent spontaneous non drive side unwinding, the imbalance is not something we need to worry about.
​​​
Unwinding of the spokes isnít the issue. The issue is unequal tension. Some of the problems we have with uneven spoke tension imbalance is trying to make new tech fit in old designs. Our lives would have been so much better if we had widened the dropouts as we stuffed more gears into the rear triangleÖwell designers did but not enough. One speed hubs like your track example are narrower. 5 speed rear wheels of 40 years ago were 126mm. 6 speed rear wheels of 30 to 35 years ago went to 130mm. Mountain bikes pushed the width to 135, then 142, then 147 and now up to 160mm. All of that is to solve the tension imbalance problem. The extra wide hubs of today really are getting close to solving that problem

Off-center drilled rims are an attempt to solve the issue as well. They solve the problem without needed to radically redesigned the frame.
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Old 10-27-22, 08:22 PM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
My position has been the same since my initial response to Doug64. It has not changed. The mistake I made was, in fact, minor and has very little impact on the spoke tension. Different hubs can be compared in terms of spoke tension differentials. They really are apple to apple comparisons. You keep making a mountain out of a very small molehill.
Nope. You tried to compare a hub with a shorter freehub standard with another hub with a wider freehub standard. Then in your ignorance you attributed the improvement in spoke tension to the dropout spacing, when in fact much of it should be attributed to the shorter freehub standard. This is not "minor". This is a fundamental and critical misunderstanding that totally blows you up. If you made a mistake just be a man and move on. Why do you do this to yourself? It's ridiculous.

Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
I read your post 116. It was only borderline understandable and wasn’t relevant. I’ll remind you that you said in post 110
To those who refuse or are incapable of reading, everything is not understandable.

Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
I gave you a comparison that used the same freewheel length but different OLD. The result, I’ll remind you, is that the tension differential between the 130mm and 135mm hub was the same 10 percentage points as comparing the (slightly) longer 105 freehub bodied hub to a shorter XT freehub bodied hub. And only 3 percentage points higher than your comparison. Your comparison of FH-R7000 to the FH-R7070 has it’s own problems since you are comparing a disc hub to a rim brake hub. The disc fittings change the flange spacing.

I gave you a comparison and you Gish galloped away as fast as you could.
This is utterly wrong. You're comparing across different hub brands now? How ignorant do you have to be to not understand that a hub designer can make ANY hub of ANY standard have ANY spoke balance distribution? That non drive side flange is completely free to float anywhere on the left half of the hub shell. If the designer moves it toward the centerline, he can get a more even tension distribution. If the designer moves it away from the centerline, he gets worse tension distribution. Furthermore, the hub designer can choose to make the flange diameter larger of smaller. The larger the flange diameter, the more angled the spokes. The smaller the flange diameter, the more vertical the spokes. Again, this will change the spoke tension distribution. The designer has TOTAL freedom to set the spoke tension distribution to ANYTHING WHATSOEVER, with ZERO relationship to the dropout width.

Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
“Muddy the waters” says the guy with the chicken and the 12 aligators. Do you not understand wheel dynamics? It doesn’t matter how tight you make the spokes. There will always be a difference between the spoke tension on the drive vs non-drive side. That difference is always important and is independent of the wheel build quality. I don’t know why I have to even explain this to you.
If you think this, it is clear evidence that you have no idea how to build a wheel. Perhaps you read a manual a long time ago and memorized the procedure via rote memorization, but you have no idea of the theory behind building a strong wheel.

Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Oh, you are soooo close to understanding. Yes, if we made the nondrive side mirror the drive side we would have stronger wheels. That’s the whole point of wider hubs. I’ll remind you want Nobi said…again…
Wrong again. If you took any one of these hubs we've been using as examples and mirrored the drive side spokes to the non drive side to give yourself a perfectly symmetrical wheel, your spokes will quickly fail via yield. There is a reason wheels are not build this way. They all intentionally have tension imbalance in order to create sufficient triangulation. Spoke balance is NOT the end all be all. In fact it is not even that important. If it WAS important, then 100% of bicycles manufactured in the world would have offset drilled rims. Afterall, it costs exactly the same amount of money to drill the rim holes on the offset rim. So why don't ALL bicycles manufactured in the world have offset rims, if spoke tension balance is so life changing as you claim? Take your time and work that out for yourself

Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
The wider hubs allow for more closely matched tension. Off-center rims do the same. It makes for closer symmetry of the wheel and, thus, a stronger wheel.
Wrong. Any hub of any width can be made to have good or bad tension distribution simply by changing the non drive side flange placement and flange diameters. See my quote #3 above.

Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Unwinding of the spokes isn’t the issue. The issue is unequal tension.
If you think this, it is clear evidence that you have no idea how to build a wheel. Perhaps you read a manual a long time ago and memorized the procedure via rote memorization, but you have no idea of the theory behind building a strong wheel. Spokes break via fatigue. Fatigue happens only when metal exceeds the yield point. Spokes exceed the yield point because a poorly built wheel gradually falls into a poorly tensioned state during riding, eventually causing the load to be concentrated onto a small number of spokes until those spokes exceed the yield point. You can have unequal left-right tension all day, as long as your 18 spokes on the non drive side all maintain the same correct tension as one another, and your 18 spokes on the drive side all maintain the same correct tension as one another, you will never get a broken spoke.

And how do you ensure your spoke all maintain the correct tension even after years of riding? You make sure to build your wheel with high enough tension that the spokes don't unwind during years of riding. And of course you can't make the tension TOO high, or you'll run into another set of problems. That's why diligent builders check their work with tensionmeters. Do you use a tensionmeter during your wheel builds?

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Old 10-28-22, 12:24 AM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by Yan View Post
Nope. You tried to compare a hub with a shorter freehub standard with another hub with a wider freehub standard. Then in your ignorance you attributed the improvement in spoke tension to the dropout spacing, when in fact much of it should be attributed to the shorter freehub standard. This is not "minor". This is a fundamental and critical misunderstanding that totally blows you up. If you made a mistake just be a man and move on. Why do you do this to yourself? It's ridiculous.
I have to admire your pit bull tenacity of hanging on to a single point. It’s wrong but, man, your jaws are locked and you aren’t going to pay attention to anything else.

Look at the data! Look at the comparison of two hubs with the same freehub body you asked for. The difference between the spoke tension is the same percentage between the 130mm and 135mm Phil hubs and the 130mm and 135mm Shimano hubs. If you look at the bracing angle…the angle that the spokes enter the rim…the differences between the Shimano hub are similar to the differences between the Phil hubs.

To anyone still following this train wreck and especially to poor elmo449, I am truly sorry but here’s more charts.

Let’s compare 130mm and 135mm hubs that have the same freehub width to look at your claim that the width of the freehub has a huuuuuugggge impact. Freespoke does have several different hubs you could have used for comparison to get past the problem you have with the width of the freehub. Yes, they are usually only available in 32 hole drillings but that doesn’t make a difference for this comparison. Interestingly, the Freespoke calculator doesn’t really pay much attention to the drillings. It can be forced to use 36 hole hubs even if those drillings don’t exist. Since I don’t this to get any further off track then it already is, I’ll stick with 32. It doesn’t make a difference.


First, our friend the FH-R7000 with the 36.75mm 11 speed freehub. Notice the tension difference.


Next up, a 105 FH-5600 with the 10 speed 34.95mm freehub. Oh, look that 1.8mm wider freehub decreased the tension differential by 2 percentage points. I’ll agree that is notable but not necessarily significant.



Now a 135mm mountain bike hub. Remember that is the same freehub body as the FH-5600. It’s 9 percentage points tension differential from the FH-5600. That both notable and significant.



And, just for complete comparison, here’s the Phil Wood comparison. This one is with 36 spokes but I ran the number with 32 and while there is a change, the tension difference between 130mm and 135mm hubs is still the same amount…10 percentage points.






This is utterly wrong. You're comparing across different hub brands now? How ignorant do you have to be to not understand that a hub designer can make ANY hub of ANY standard have ANY spoke balance distribution? That non drive side flange is completely free to float anywhere on the left half of the hub shell. If the designer moves it toward the centerline, he can get a more even tension distribution. If the designer moves it away from the centerline, he gets worse tension distribution. Furthermore, the hub designer can choose to make the flange diameter larger of smaller. The larger the flange diameter, the more angled the spokes. The smaller the flange diameter, the more vertical the spokes. Again, this will change the spoke tension distribution. The designer has TOTAL freedom to set the spoke tension distribution to ANYTHING WHATSOEVER, with ZERO relationship to the dropout width.
And we are off the races! Gish galloping away! What I am comparing is the results of going from a 130mm hub to a 135mm hub within the same brand. When compared to a different brand, the results are similar. The 1.8mm longer freehub body had very little impact on the tension differential. Hub manufacturers can change dimensions but, generally, they optimize for tension differential and bracing angle. Those are competing parameters. This article is a much more in-depth discussion than I want to get into here but bracing angle (lateral stiffness) can be increased at the expense of tension differential and vice versa. Hub manufactures have to design for both but they can’t change one without having a negative effect on the other.

And, again with the pit bull tenacity. Dropout width is really just short hand for the O.L.D. (Over lock nut dimension) which is the measure of the hub. It has a relationship to the dropout width because that’s the hub that fits in the frame. The various dimensions on a hub…the left and right locknut-to-flange distance, the left and right flange-to-center, and flange diameter…can vary even within the same model line. That’s all figured into the calculations to give spoke length, bracing angle, and spoke tension differential.

If you think this, it is clear evidence that you have no idea how to build a wheel. Perhaps you read a manual a long time ago and memorized the procedure via rote memorization, but you have no idea of the theory behind building a strong wheel.
Kodak called and they want their projector back. Do you see any values on the spoke tension in any of those charts presented in this post or in this whole thread? They are dimensionless percentages. If you put 10, 100, 1000, or 10,000 kgf on the spokes on the drive side of the FH-5700 hub above, the difference in the tension on the nondrive side would still be 49% of that on the drive side. You can’t “build” your way out of that tension differential.

And don’t try to wiggle out by changing something in the build. With the same hub and the same rim, the tension differential will always be the same.

​​​​​​​Wrong again. If you took any one of these hubs we've been using as examples and mirrored the drive side spokes to the non drive side to give yourself a perfectly symmetrical wheel, your spokes will quickly fail via yield. There is a reason wheels are not build this way. They all intentionally have tension imbalance in order to create sufficient triangulation. Spoke balance is NOT the end all be all. In fact it is not even that important. If it WAS important, then 100% of bicycles manufactured in the world would have offset drilled rims. Afterall, it costs exactly the same amount of money to drill the rim holes on the offset rim. So why don't ALL bicycles manufactured in the world have offset rims, if spoke tension balance is so life changing as you claim? Take your time and work that out for yourself
You really should put an oven mitts warning on your posts. I’m going to have a concussion from the face palm. You do know that (at least some) front wheels mirror the spokes on both sides, don’t you? Using our old friend the Deore HB-M510, we get the following chart. Notice the spoke length is the same and the tension is equivalent. “Spokes [that] will quickly fail via yield” just isn’t a thing with front wheels. As noted previously, front wheel spoke seldom fail because the tension is even from one side to another.




Additionally, rear wheels don’t “all intentionally have tension imbalance in order to create sufficient triangulation.” They have tension imbalance because the drive side of the rear wheel has to be squished over so that there is enough room for the gearing. Yet more pictures

Front. Symmetrical not in danger of failing due to yield.


Rear. Not symmetrical. Is in danger of spokes failing due to uneven tension. And…I really shouldn’t need to point this out…the part of the hub on the right side that shoves the spokes over is for the gear cluster. And…again, I really shouldn’t have to point this out…but notice how the triangle on the right is wider…i.e. more stable…than the triangle on the left?





​​​​​​​Wrong. Any hub of any width can be made to have good or bad tension distribution simply by changing the non drive side flange placement and flange diameters. See my quote #3 above.
Your point is silly. Yes, designers can change those parameters. Once the hub is made, there is nothing that the wheel builder can do to change the flange placement. That’s just not an option available to the wheel builder. You might be able to get a different hub but that’s not what is being discussed here. The tension distribution is what it is. And, from the numerous examples from above, it seems to be locked into a fairly narrow range which is only changed by changing the hub width. In other words, what I told Doug64 so long ago, still holds. Wider hubs make for stronger wheels all things being equal.


​​​​​​​If you think this, it is clear evidence that you have no idea how to build a wheel. Perhaps you read a manual a long time ago and memorized the procedure via rote memorization, but you have no idea of the theory behind building a strong wheel.
Victrola called and want their broken record back. “Unwinding” isn’t the word you think it means.

​​​​​​​Spokes break via fatigue. Fatigue happens only when metal exceeds the yield point.
Yup. Keep going.

​​​​​​​Spokes exceed the yield point because a poorly built wheel gradually falls into a poorly tensioned state during riding, eventually causing the load to be concentrated onto a small number of spokes until those spokes exceed the yield point. You can have unequal left-right tension all day, as long as your 18 spokes on the non drive side all maintain the same correct tension as one another, and your 18 spokes on the drive side all maintain the same correct tension as one another, you will never get a broken spoke.
That all depends on what is causing the fatigue. A heavy load causes the spokes to detension more during regular riding than a lighter load does. Heavy riders with heavy loads flex the spokes more and they may fail without ever going through being poorly tensioned. Increasing the number of spokes shares the load more and puts less stress on an individual spoke. Using more spokes and using heavier heads…the DT Alpine III being an example…mens that the spokes can endure more fatigue.

​​​​​​​And how do you ensure your spoke all maintain the correct tension even after years of riding? You make sure to build your wheel with high enough tension that the spokes don't unwind during years of riding. And of course you can't make the tension TOO high, or you'll run into another set of problems. That's why diligent builders check their work with tensionmeters. Do you use a tensionmeter during your wheel builds?
And there you go off the rails into the weeds again. Again, spokes can fatigue without losing tension. Spoke nipples loosening isn’t that much of a problem and is more related to failure to use a spoke preparation than to tension. People who have broken a spoke usually report that they heard a “ping” which is when the head shears off and the spoke releases its tension. A slack, unwound spoke wouldn’t make a “ping”. I’ve replaced a lot of spokes…mostly on the thousands of bikes I’ve worked on but a few on my own bikes before I started using Alpine III spokes…and seldom do the wheels have any other loose spokes.

I’ll admit that spokes can sometimes work loose. It’s not unknown…rare but not unknown. But spokes loosening happens almost exclusively on the rear wheel and is related to the tension difference between the right and left side. Front wheels don’t develop slack spokes.

Additionally, as many people will tell you, once a few spokes break, the wheel needs a rebuild because the broken spoke (or spokes) have put stress on the other spokes of the wheel causing them to fatigue. They likely aren’t loose.

Most of the broken spokes I replace are on the drive side which is the high tension side. Even at the co-op, it’s likely 25 drive side to 1 non-drive side.

Do I use a tension meter? That shall remain a mystery.
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Old 10-28-22, 09:19 AM
  #170  
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I figured out that your ego won't allow you to ever admit being wrong, that's why I offered you an off ramp at the end of my last post to protect your ego with, but you refuse to take it and again double down on these incorrect beliefs. Amazing.

Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
... excessively meadering post that can't focus ...
This isn't very complicated. It all comes down to you mistakenly tying spoke tension balance to dropout width like it's some kind of critical lifeline. I explained patiently to you that the hub designer can give ANY hub ANY tension balance simply by moving the non drive side flange left or right on the hub shell, or by changing the diameters of the flanges. You indicated that you understood what I explained, and immediately afterwards you come out with this:

Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Once the hub is made, there is nothing that the wheel builder can do to change the flange placement.
Yeah no sh*t Sherlock, it's because you're wrong. The hub designers at Shimano don't agree with you and that's why they don't manufacture hubs your way. What an outrage that the industrial engineering team at a $14 Billion market cap international corporation doesn't take advice from an obscure chemist in Colorado. The world apologizes to you on their behalf. LOL!

Let's take a modern hub, (link here). This is Shimano's latest and greatest XT level 12 speed mountain hub. As you can see since is made for modern mountain bikes it has a 142mm width, which according to you is a good start for spoke tension balance. But wait, what else do we see? Excessively large non drive side flange. Oh the humanity the world is about to explode! If according to you the spoke tension balance was the end all be all, they could have reduced the non drive side flange diameter to vastly improve the spoke angle and greatly improve the tension balance. But why don't they take this completely free opportunity to get the spoke tension balance as close to 100% as possible? According to you 80% is better than 70%, 70% is better than 65%, 65% is better than 60%, no?

Because you are wrong and Shimano's engineering team knows better than you. They chose to prioritize more overall triangulation instead of getting the best possible spoke tension balance. But didn't you say tension balance was the end all be all way to achieve a strong wheel? Who is right, you or Shimano? We're over a hundred years into the history of bicycles and some obscure nobody like you thinks he can come out and start back seat driving global manufacturers on something as fundamental as hub design. It's freaking hilarious how big your head is.

And for your curiosity here is an FSA hub which does play with flange sizing. A rather extreme example that uses some bizarre triple flange system that supposedly "improves aerodynamics" according to their marketing. It looks like all the outboard spokes are radial. Crazy stuff. Whatever else you say about this hub, that tiny non drive side flange certainly makes the non drive side spokes as vertical as possible to achieve high tension on that side.

FSA RD-600



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Regarding wheel building and spoke breakage: You clearly don't understand the mechanism for how spokes break. If you cannot explain the correct reasoning behind why things should be done a certain way, then you're nothing but a rote repeater. You should not be building because a wheel building machine can do just as good a job as you. You should not be teaching because a tape recorder or photocopier can do a better job at repeating rote information.

Yes, contrary to what you claim front wheels do develop loose spokes. You claim to work at a bike co-op? Seriously how many bikes do you see? You're volunteering only once a year or what? You have 200+ lb guys out there whose front wheels see more load than the rear wheels of normal cyclists. You have fixed gear guys out there who are riding completely symmetrical flip flop hubs which still break spokes. All wheels can easily fail if not built well. Yes, it is the highest tension spokes that break, which is most frequently the rear wheel drive side. Once some spokes lose tension the load becomes disproportionately concentrated on the remaining spokes which have the highest tension. That's how the highest tension spokes exceed the yield point and fatigue to failure. If you look at a failing wheel it will always have spokes that are going slack. It's not the slack spokes that fail, it's the tight ones which now have to carry too much load. This is how poorly built wheels fail over time.

Previously I thought you were at least a good mechanic. Now it turns out this is not the case either. Unbelievable. Why don't you use a tension meter? You think you can rely on "experience"? When you need to measure a distance can you also use your eyeballs instead of a ruler because you have "experience"? Ridiculous. You can pluck the spoke for sound or squeeze the spokes with your fingers all day, buts since every wheel is using a different spoke layout and spoke gauge, you will never know the precise kgf tension without a real tension meter. If you can't measure tension with complete accuracy, then your wheel will never be as strong as it could be. Is this amateur hour or what? Nowadays you can get a nice dial gauge tension meter from Aliexpress for very cheap, and they work way better than that old blue colored stamped metal thing from Park Tools. (Link)

Last edited by Yan; 10-28-22 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 10-28-22, 10:04 AM
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chill out
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Old 10-28-22, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by elmo449 View Post
I might be showing my age, but I hadn't even considered drum brakes as an option.
Since 1932.



Front drums in two sizes with and without Dynohubs. Rear drums built into 3-, 4-, 5- and 8-speed IGHs, threaded freewheel version, 8-11 speed cassette version (as shown in post no. 47).
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Old 10-28-22, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by tombc View Post
chill out
Touring is the new General.
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Old 10-28-22, 12:45 PM
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Enough of this. Yan and cyccommute take it to PMs.

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Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
Fenders protect you from tire splatter. Mudguards protect you from tyre splatter.







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