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Vintage Cycling dies a slow death...

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Vintage Cycling dies a slow death...

Old 11-21-22, 04:24 PM
  #151  
nlerner
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Originally Posted by Bad Lag
Here's a question.

Is vintage cycling defined by buying & selling, restoring, collecting or is it about riding?

It seems to me almost ALL the traffic on this forum is about buying, selling and restoration.

Is an activity "dead" because there's no commerce happening (buying and selling of goods)?

Once an individual or group get saturated with products, does their interest in vintage cycling end or wane OR is it just there isn't a way to discuss the riding on this C&V forum?

Looking at the reduced traffic (a quantitative evaluation) might be interpreted as waning interest (a conjecture). However, the reality might be the exact opposite. It might be lots more riding but less commerce (buying, selling,...).

On this C&V board, I believe discussions of simple riding are somewhat frowned upon. A great photo thread from C&V touring is always appreciated by all but if one wants to discuss your everyday ride...?

Is cycling "dead" if everyone is out riding and not home to be spammed with commercials while watching the latest televised bicycle race (viewership is down so cycling is dead)?

Honestly, what's to even discuss, just RIDE!


P.S. - There are analogous situations for all hobbies. Audio: gear purchases, the actual audio recordings versus the actual listening. Woodworking and automobiles are similar.
I agree that the market for buying and selling might be what the OP is referring to, but given that the “”Where’d you ride today?” thread is a sticky and has nearly 20,000 posts is some evidence a these C&V bikes do get ridden on occasion.
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Old 11-22-22, 01:37 AM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by 52telecaster
I post about riding to the grocery or my overnights on my vintage bikes, all my bikes are pretty vintage, and I've never felt frowned upon for posting.
I struggled with that "frowned upon" phrasing. It wasn't proper but I had no time to rework it.
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Old 11-22-22, 01:39 AM
  #153  
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Originally Posted by nlerner
I agree that the market for buying and selling might be what the OP is referring to, but given that the “”Where’d you ride today?” thread is a sticky and has nearly 20,000 posts is some evidence a these C&V bikes do get ridden on occasion.
Yep, I posted there once or twice, myself.

Still, all those posts are collected in a single spot, not like the "gear" threads below.

Also note, that is predominantly a photography thread not a discussion thread.

None of what I'm pointing out is intended as criticism. I am just pointing out what may be in play when OP perceives C&V is "dying out". Whether it is actually dying out, is just perceived to be dying out or is just progressing forward in time can be very totally different things.

Last edited by Bad Lag; 11-22-22 at 01:43 AM.
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Old 11-22-22, 02:38 AM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by Bad Lag
I struggled with that "frowned upon" phrasing. It wasn't proper but I had no time to rework it.
No sweat
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Old 11-22-22, 07:50 AM
  #155  
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I think the bike companies are certainly trying to kill the concept/idealism of C & V. C & V for me doesn't mean old as much as it means interchangeable parts from different brands that work together in any configuration you choose. The rider gets to choose what and how he/she rides. The industry is headed back to the days of Henry Ford and the Model T.

"The customer can have a bike painted in any color they want so long as it's black. The customer can have any choice of drivetrain they want as long as it shifts electronically and uses our brand of shifters/derailleurs/cassettes/chainrings. The customer can even choose their braking system as long as it is disc and is the brand we produce. None of our products will be backwards compatible either." And on, and on, and on.
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Old 11-22-22, 08:04 AM
  #156  
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Originally Posted by seypat
I think the bike companies are certainly trying to kill the concept/idealism of C & V. C & V for me doesn't mean old as much as it means interchangeable parts from different brands that work together in any configuration you choose. The rider gets to choose what and how he/she rides. The industry is headed back to the days of Henry Ford and the Model T.
good point!

Did this start when Campagnolo created the concept of a "group"?
Or was it the development of indexed shifting that meant that you couldn't just pair any old derailleur with some arbitrary freewheel?
Or was it the increasing fragility of carbon parts that kept folks from working on their own stuff, and therefore less likely to tinker around and change stuff?

The only glimmer of hope that I can see is the trend in audio enthusiasts towards older technology, just to become more involved with the hardware (and the perception that it sounds better). Maybe this is their "fixed gear" phase?? Or maybe it's a desire to really own the music they enjoy instead of streaming it or storing files on their electronics? The desire to have something tangible seems familiar.... who doesn't enjoy working with a nice hub and feeling the smoothness of the spinning axle after cleaning and adjusting it?

Steve in Peoria (that reminds me that I've got some bearings that need to be overhauled too)
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Old 11-22-22, 08:14 AM
  #157  
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy
good point!

Did this start when Campagnolo created the concept of a "group"?
Or was it the development of indexed shifting that meant that you couldn't just pair any old derailleur with some arbitrary freewheel?
Or was it the increasing fragility of carbon parts that kept folks from working on their own stuff, and therefore less likely to tinker around and change stuff?

The only glimmer of hope that I can see is the trend in audio enthusiasts towards older technology, just to become more involved with the hardware (and the perception that it sounds better). Maybe this is their "fixed gear" phase?? Or maybe it's a desire to really own the music they enjoy instead of streaming it or storing files on their electronics? The desire to have something tangible seems familiar.... who doesn't enjoy working with a nice hub and feeling the smoothness of the spinning axle after cleaning and adjusting it?

Steve in Peoria (that reminds me that I've got some bearings that need to be overhauled too)
I can tell you vintage hifi once refurbished punches way above it's weight price wise but for me it sounds good enough and I get to play with toys I couldn't afford back in the day. Dual1229>pioneer sa700preamp only>altec Lansing power amp>tannoy dual concentric 15s. Some modern stuff sounds better but none is more fun.
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Old 11-22-22, 08:31 AM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by 52telecaster
I can tell you vintage hifi once refurbished punches way above it's weight price wise but for me it sounds good enough and I get to play with toys I couldn't afford back in the day. Dual1229>pioneer sa700preamp only>altec Lansing power amp>tannoy dual concentric 15s. Some modern stuff sounds better but none is more fun.
Boy, my audio stuff is partly equipment that I bought in the 70's and never got rid of. Still have the Hitachi turntable and the Sansui speakers from that era, and still use them. The Pioneer SX-880 receiver needs to have the pots and switches cleaned, since they are noisy or intermittent. The Yamaha receiver that replaced the Pioneer needs to have its switches cleaned too.

That danged mechanical stuff (i.e. switches and pots) are always the most failure prone parts, assuming that the electronics was designed well and good parts selected. An analogy is the limited life of a cheap set of Sunshine hubs versus Campy Record... and the Campy hubs spin sooo smoothly too! About as satisfying as a freshly cleaned record!

Steve in Peoria
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Old 11-22-22, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by seypat
I think the bike companies are certainly trying to kill the concept/idealism of C & V. C & V for me doesn't mean old as much as it means interchangeable parts from different brands that work together in any configuration you choose. The rider gets to choose what and how he/she rides. The industry is headed back to the days of Henry Ford and the Model T.

"The customer can have a bike painted in any color they want so long as it's black. The customer can have any choice of drivetrain they want as long as it shifts electronically and uses our brand of shifters/derailleurs/cassettes/chainrings. The customer can even choose their braking system as long as it is disc and is the brand we produce. None of our products will be backwards compatible either." And on, and on, and on.
That only applies to higher end road stuff. C&V equipment - whether road, commuter, or casual - for the most part relies on a parts list that is pretty standardized amongst more everyday bikes. Even Shimano's fancy shifting of their RD pivot hasn't changed the fairly standard RD hanger design.

-Kurt
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Old 11-22-22, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy
Boy, my audio stuff is partly equipment that I bought in the 70's and never got rid of. Still have the Hitachi turntable and the Sansui speakers from that era, and still use them. The Pioneer SX-880 receiver needs to have the pots and switches cleaned, since they are noisy or intermittent. The Yamaha receiver that replaced the Pioneer needs to have its switches cleaned too.

That danged mechanical stuff (i.e. switches and pots) are always the most failure prone parts, assuming that the electronics was designed well and good parts selected. An analogy is the limited life of a cheap set of Sunshine hubs versus Campy Record... and the Campy hubs spin sooo smoothly too! About as satisfying as a freshly cleaned record!

Steve in Peoria
Often those pots and switches need cleaned because of leaking coupling caps. It's a job but replacing coupling caps can work wonders. Faulty ones let DC voltage leak to your pots and switches which helps them become intermittent.
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Old 11-22-22, 08:45 AM
  #161  
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Originally Posted by cudak888
That only applies to higher end road stuff. C&V equipment - whether road, commuter, or casual - for the most part relies on a parts list that is pretty standardized amongst more everyday bikes. Even Shimano's fancy shifting of their RD pivot hasn't changed the fairly standard RD hanger design.

-Kurt
At my son's shop I could still knock out an entry level bike fairly quickly but things are changing rapidly and not for better. Internal cabeling on everything now is causing lots of headaches for the mechanics. It's a ridiculous thing to do to sell a bike. The advantage is looks and a tiny bit of weather proofing. The disadvantages are too numerous to mention.
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Old 11-22-22, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by 52telecaster
Often those pots and switches need cleaned because of leaking coupling caps. It's a job but replacing coupling caps can work wonders. Faulty ones let DC voltage leak to your pots and switches which helps them become intermittent.
Electrolytic caps can leak, and that will be something to check. These can be used for coupling, especially when you need a large capacitance to avoid losing the low frequencies. I can see that leakage would put current through a pot's wiper contact, but that shouldn't harm it. Pots are designed to deal with DC currents as well as AC. As long the current is within the pot's rating, there shouldn't be a problem.
Pot wiper contacts, like switch contacts, can oxidize, especially when good plating materials aren't used (as is typical in consumer grade items). Stuff like "De-oxit" seems to do a pretty good job in most cases, although if the plating is worn through, the underlying steel is never going to work well.

.. but.. while leakage current in electrolytic caps isn't likely to hurt switches or pots, it does indicate that the cap is losing its ability to operate properly. Electrolytic caps lose their electrolyte, increasing their internal resistance (not good), and reducing their capacitance (also not good).

Maintenance on the receivers is somewhere in the middle of the "to do" list. Right now, I need to get on the bike and run down to Trefzgers for some cinnamon rolls and then do some other errands. ... might get a donut while I'm at Trefzgers too.

Steve in Peoria (possibly the only place with a bakery located in a former bike factory)
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Old 11-22-22, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by 52telecaster
At my son's shop I could still knock out an entry level bike fairly quickly but things are changing rapidly and not for better. Internal cabeling on everything now is causing lots of headaches for the mechanics. It's a ridiculous thing to do to sell a bike. The advantage is looks and a tiny bit of weather proofing. The disadvantages are too numerous to mention.
On upright-bar commuter bikes? Even if it is showing up on some of them, that's not a proprietary limitation. It's just a pain in the butt.

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Old 11-22-22, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy
Electrolytic caps can leak, and that will be something to check. These can be used for coupling, especially when you need a large capacitance to avoid losing the low frequencies. I can see that leakage would put current through a pot's wiper contact, but that shouldn't harm it. Pots are designed to deal with DC currents as well as AC. As long the current is within the pot's rating, there shouldn't be a problem.
Pot wiper contacts, like switch contacts, can oxidize, especially when good plating materials aren't used (as is typical in consumer grade items). Stuff like "De-oxit" seems to do a pretty good job in most cases, although if the plating is worn through, the underlying steel is never going to work well.

.. but.. while leakage current in electrolytic caps isn't likely to hurt switches or pots, it does indicate that the cap is losing its ability to operate properly. Electrolytic caps lose their electrolyte, increasing their internal resistance (not good), and reducing their capacitance (also not good).

Maintenance on the receivers is somewhere in the middle of the "to do" list. Right now, I need to get on the bike and run down to Trefzgers for some cinnamon rolls and then do some other errands. ... might get a donut while I'm at Trefzgers too.

Steve in Peoria (possibly the only place with a bakery located in a former bike factory)
An excellent destination... Coupling caps in tube gear are more troublesome.
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Old 11-22-22, 01:09 PM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by 52telecaster
An excellent destination... Coupling caps in tube gear are more troublesome.
oh.. vacuum tubes. The tubular tires of the audio world.
kind of a pain, but it doesn't take long to learn to do the extra stuff required to take care of them.
It might be easier to find a nice tubular than a vacuum tube, or at least that's the impression I've gotten. Or has someone started producing the tubes used in audio amps?

the mission to Trefzgers went well, although it was quite busy! Probably folks prepping for Thanksgiving.




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Old 11-23-22, 06:32 AM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy
oh.. vacuum tubes. The tubular tires of the audio world.
kind of a pain, but it doesn't take long to learn to do the extra stuff required to take care of them.
It might be easier to find a nice tubular than a vacuum tube, or at least that's the impression I've gotten. Or has someone started producing the tubes used in audio amps?

the mission to Trefzgers went well, although it was quite busy! Probably folks prepping for Thanksgiving.




Steve in Peoria
Lots of good tubes out there thanks to us guitarists. Playing with a great sax player tonight at Jack's on Adams.
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Old 11-23-22, 07:24 AM
  #167  
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Originally Posted by Bad Lag
OR is it just there isn't a way to discuss the riding on this C&V forum?
Actually, there are a lot of threads about riding. So I don't understand your conjecture.
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Old 11-23-22, 08:29 AM
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I agree that some folks here are too focused on the monetary aspects for my taste. But I assume that's just their frame of reference, and leave it at that.

I sometimes wonder if what's "dying" is human-powered cycling. Americans are obsessed with motor vehicles, and now there are a ton of options, including bikes.

The natural trend seems to be for vintage things to become more niche and obsolete over time. Hasn't that always been the case?

I like old bikes because they work fine for my (old, slow, practical) riding purposes and I think they're cool. If I was young or fast I'd probably want whatever new thing the cool kids are riding.

I'm ok with brief thread derails here, but if you want to talk about cars there are probably better forums.

Ride and carry on...
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Old 11-23-22, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by jethin
I agree that some folks here are too focused on the monetary aspects for my taste. But I assume that's just their frame of reference, and leave it at that.

I sometimes wonder if what's "dying" is human-powered cycling. Americans are obsessed with motor vehicles, and now there are a ton of options, including bikes.

The natural trend seems to be for vintage things to become more niche and obsolete over time. Hasn't that always been the case?

I like old bikes because they work fine for my (old, slow, practical) riding purposes and I think they're cool. If I was young or fast I'd probably want whatever new thing the cool kids are riding.

I'm ok with brief thread derails here, but if you want to talk about cars there are probably better forums.

Ride and carry on...
Well put. I ride because it's practical but also because it's cool. Nothing is cooler than a piece of antiquity still being useful. That applies to my bikes and occasionally me.
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Old 11-23-22, 09:31 AM
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Viva La 110/74 and 86BCD!
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Old 11-23-22, 09:35 AM
  #171  
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Hobbies/collecting are not all driven by commerce. Please, tell me one person getting rich on vintage bikes.

I'm sure it's been said somewhere in this thread, vintage cycling is dying because its people are dying. Just that simple. The biggest driver to a hobby/collection is nostalgia. I'd say there are more threads about nostalgia than there are riding. Vintage "ten speeds" are mostly a boomer thing. They're dying, or too old to ride. Hobby declines. Whereas vintage BMX and mountain bikes are more of a Gen X thing. They got money, want to grab some youth and that market is good. Don't know what floated Gen Y's boat, and they are too young for nostalgia.

Collecting the hot item comes and go. I'm sure someone out there has a great buggy whip collection. It's dead. I don't care. When vintage bikes die, I'll also be dead and again, won't care. What amuses me are those trying "to get young people involved". I'd rather pound sand.
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Old 11-23-22, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888
That only applies to higher end road stuff. C&V equipment - whether road, commuter, or casual - for the most part relies on a parts list that is pretty standardized amongst more everyday bikes. Even Shimano's fancy shifting of their RD pivot hasn't changed the fairly standard RD hanger design.

-Kurt
actually if one checks the specs of the attachment point for current rear mechanisms, the older ubiquitous Campagnolo design works but is different than what SRAM and Shimano present now, Campagnolo has had to adapt.
so it goes.
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Old 11-23-22, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by seypat
Viva La 110/74 and 86BCD!
And 50.4
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Old 11-23-22, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by iab
Hobbies/collecting are not all driven by commerce. Please, tell me one person getting rich on vintage bikes.

I'm sure it's been said somewhere in this thread, vintage cycling is dying because its people are dying. Just that simple. The biggest driver to a hobby/collection is nostalgia. I'd say there are more threads about nostalgia than there are riding. Vintage "ten speeds" are mostly a boomer thing. They're dying, or too old to ride. Hobby declines. Whereas vintage BMX and mountain bikes are more of a Gen X thing. They got money, want to grab some youth and that market is good. Don't know what floated Gen Y's boat, and they are too young for nostalgia.

Collecting the hot item comes and go. I'm sure someone out there has a great buggy whip collection. It's dead. I don't care. When vintage bikes die, I'll also be dead and again, won't care. What amuses me are those trying "to get young people involved". I'd rather pound sand.
Millennial chiming in here - while I definitely agree that your gloss on nostalgia is generally how that works as both a societal and personal phenomenon (cf. Zoomers and the resurgence of early-2000s/aughts fashion and music) for me, personally, as a soon-to-be 34-yr-old, the draw to C&V bikes is, on the one hand, closer to something like the audiophilia described above in previous posts, the love of "analog" and beautifully conceived yet ruggedly mechanical objects, but also utility and cost.

Sure, there is a mystique to steel, how slight variations in materials and geometry create singular ride characteristics, but it's also robust. It lasts. Old framesets or bikes I acquire have had lives before they came to me that neither I nor any other owner after me will ever know. I have cup and cone Campy BBs that God knows how many people have used before me, and that will hopefully get passed on to others. I have a NOS 1st gen Campy Super Record RD sitting on my desk at work. These use objects are also frequently art objects - and there is beauty in how they function, too.

I think it's a bit of a mischaracterization that a lot of people in these forums focus on cost; while collecting is all about acquiring in some way, of owning, I think it's a love of and fascination with vintage and classic bikes, the actual bikes as objects, and of course the history and culture of which they are the products and reminders, that defines "C&V" as a "hobby" - at least for me and my generational compatriots who also love "old bikes".

Of course, I also ride my bikes. Up until fairly recently I always had a "modern" road bike for "serious" riding. Eventually, I realized that I enjoyed riding my vintage steel bikes more. They were more fun. There was more of a sense of "occasion". The real surprise was that I was pretty much just as fast on a 40-year-old steel bike with a quill stem and downtube shifters than I was on my CAAD12 - though maybe not my Pinarello F8, but then again, since selling that bike years ago, I honestly can't remember what it felt like to ride. That's not true of my Colnago Master, my Merckx Corsa Extra or MX-Leader and many others - all of which have since gone to new owners.
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Old 11-23-22, 02:05 PM
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repechage
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One plus for classic and vintage, while Di2 and Ergo EPS and whatever SRAM calls their electronic groups go the way of Mavic Zap and become unserviceable, cable actuated systems will endure.

not to mention near unserviceable hydraulic brake systems.
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