Positron400

Hey,

I recently acquired a Puch (Austro Daimler) Royal Force for reasonable money. It is lush, and comes with (from what i can tell) a first gen Dura Ace Black groupset. After getting over the initial shock of the seatpost being stuck (and unsticking it with WD40/other lubricant), there are some things I want to change and upgrade. I don't want to go for a complete restomod just make the bike more appropriate for the terrain i ride in:

• There are currently tubulars (20 mm) on the rims which is way too skinny for me. What are my options here?
• The gearing is crazy tall - 52/42 with a 14-28 (not sure about the latter) on a 2x6. I dont want to coldset the rear triangle and keep the 126mm spacing. The rear hub has a DA freewheel (already scared of tryng to remove that). What tools do i need to change this? and do i need to change it, since i dont think there is any wider range of cogs available for 6sp anyway.
• Front chainrings i would like to switch from the 52/42 to a 50/38 with the 130 bcd crank. Anything i need to consider there (I want to keep the black chainrings, and some Miche seem to be on offer, are they compatible with a 6sp chain)?

I'm sure there is more, i need to consider, but that's plenty to ask
Thanks!

bikemig 

Nice bike. In addition to swapping out the chainrings, you can run a larger freewheel in the rear either 6 or 7. The problem you will run into will be the rear derailleur as it cannot handle anything bigger than a 28 tooth cog. You could track down a long cage shimano crane (if you want to stay with the same component family) or other suitable rear derailleur if you do not (suntour made very good rear derailleurs).

Tubulars are nice riding tires and you can get them wider than 20c. That said, if you want clinchers (and there's a lot to be said for clinchers), you will need a new wheelset as well.

daverup 

Positron400 I think trying the smaller chainrings on your current DA crankset is the best way to start. I think 38 is much easier to climb hills with than a 42, even though it isn't that much smaller.
When you start thinking about changing out the tires, keeping tubular would be easier. Going to 700c clinchers would probably work better than 27" rims, but there will be brake caliper issues with that. Your desire for wider tires would probably not work with 27" rims either.

Positron400

Thanks - yea, that was my initial impression too. Would you reccomend these Miche: https://www.bike-discount.de/en/mich...13246-40302284 since it's an easy upgrade.

From what i can tell, those should be 700C wheels and not 27"". I have a set of 22 mm Tubulars which I have dry mounted on the rims (Giro Continental 28x22) hence i am fairly confident those are 28 inch/700c rims. so i guess brake calipers wont be an issue. (fingerscrossed)
If i mount those 22 mm, how easy would I be able to get them off, once glued, say in the event of a puncture? (the one thing i am most scared of when considering tubulars). Better to tape them, or glue them?

daverup 

I've never seen those Miche rings, but they say they are shimano compatible, so probably work fine.

Most people I've talked to recently recommend taping the tubulars, since the glue is a mess. I glued one set last year and will be taping in the future. In case of a puncture, you should be able to pull the punctured one off and just dry fit the spare. Once fully inflated, it will probably be fine as long as you don't turn sharply. Re-do the tape later.

bikemig 

Tubulars are 700c. I'd use tape rather than glue. They're not hard to replace but it's a bit of a pain since they are expensive if you flat. They ride nice though.

rustystrings61 

First, VERY cool bike. The Royal Force was the top of the Puch line. I have a Royal X (a 1976-only model) that my father purchased for me new in 1978, and it has the same frameset, just different paint and parts -


1976 Puch Royal X my father bought for me in 1978 - my first 531 bike!

I think yours may be a little later than mine, if the decals on the head tube are stock - they were a little simpler early on.

Re: tire clearance - mine is currently wearing the pictured 27 x 1 1/4-in wheelset it came back to me with. These bikes WILL take that size, as the Royal X came stock with Weinmann 27s, Normandy Luxe Comp hubs and I think Vredestein 27 x 1 1/4 tires. I actually ran mine for a while with 27s and Bluemels Club Special fenders. You should have no trouble running 622 x 32 tires, maybe even a little larger.

Brake reach is NOT a problem - I ran this bike for several years with Hutchinson Super Sprint and National tubulars on Mavic Montlhery rims laced to Weyless sealed bearing hubs. I wish those wheels would surface somewhere ...

Tufo makes a 28 mm tubular in the $45 range, and there are more expensive, 30-32 mm tubulars out there. When I get past my inner cheapskate, I realize there are lots of clinchers that are just as expensive if not more. If there are 25 mm tires out there that measure out to a TRUE 25, it's worth noting I have ridden all manner of gravel and fire roads on nominal 28s that were actually more like 25s. Tubulars are more forgiving about running lower pressure as well. Should I ever acquire a good set of tubular wheels, I will probably return this bike to its late '70s coolness.

Gearing-wise, I would suggest 38/48 or 38/50 up front. I ran mine with a 40/46 x 14-22 when I first got it, before replacing the rear freewheel with a 14-24. I was trying to stay within the capacity of the stock SunTour Cyclone, which capped out at 24T. Later I switched to the 6-speed SunTour Ultra 13-28 it currently wears, and swapped out the rear for a Shimano Crane, the original Dura-Ace derailleur. When I reacquired it in 2019, I made a deal for an altered SunTour Cyclone fitted with a Vx medium cage, which works flawlessly. Note that it is suggested that 1st Gen Dura Ace bottom brackets are allegedly their own thing, subtly different from anything else. I have had no trouble with mine, and I was shocked at how well it cleaned up when I serviced it in 2019, probably the first time it had been overhauled since I did it last in 1981.

DO understand - there weren't a ton of these made. They are arguably criminally under-rated. Austro-Daimler/Puch made a point of precisely mitering the tubes, and they assembled them with silver solder. It's full 531 using fairly conventional geometry that just WORKS. It's a relatively flexible, adaptable bike that can be set up for vintage-style racing or light touring. They are probably undervalued on the market, but that's good for those of us who know what they are and appreciate them. Think, Raleigh Gran Sport or Competition, but with vastly superior workmanship.

EDIT: 126 mm spacing is the same as early 6 and 7-speed freehubs, in case you want to store the cool original stock wheelset and run a later cassette-equipped set of 700C clinchers.

Positron400

right back at ya! Very cool bike as well!
From what i can tell, the headbadge (sticker) is stock (which i sadly somewhat smudged by going over it with acetone to remove a different sticker.. silly me.. but you live 'n you learn)

As already mentioned, the bike comes with 700C wheels, judging by the fact that i was able to dry mount unglued 28x22 tubulars. I would prefer to go clinchers (I have a new set of Schwalbe Pro One 25mm ready to go), and for the ease of fixing a puncture, plus i have never ridden tubulars. Then again, the stock wheelset is amazing, and i would like to ride it somewhat.

38/48 seems to be the way to go, despite limiting the amount of climbing i can do. I hope the rear is at least a 28, otherwise there is no way i can get up those hills around me

What early hubs would i be looking at to fit a cassette? And what type of freewheel removal tool would i need?

rustystrings61 

Check this for the freewheel tool, etc. -
Look for late 80s-early 90s 7-speed cassette hubs for general riding around, etc.

Remember, with tubulars, you carry 1 or 2 spares with you; I shocked some guys in my club many years ago when I had a flat, yanked the damaged tire, installed a spare I carried under my saddle, pumped it up and was ready to roll in less time than it took them to dismount a clincher to begin with. There are reasons why the old racers carried tubulars over the bad roads of the 30s, and only the coming of support vehicles changed that.

bikemig 

You don't need to remove the freewheel if buying clinchers. Just get any set of 126 OLD 700c wheels and run a freewheel (6 or 7) that you like. That rear derailleur can handle up to 28 teeth. You can run a larger freewheel but you will need a different rear derailleur. Alternatively find 126 OLD wheels with a cassette (as opposed to a freewheel).

Positron400

Yea, I checked and the rear sprockets are 14-24 . I might try'n track down a 126 mm cassette hub, despite the fact that the DA hub sounds lush and seems to be in great order. Where would i go to tryn'n find a 14-28 6sp freewheel? they are not terribly common anymore, and I dont wanna get some crappy Tourney thingy..

bikemig 

Keep in mind that cassettes are not the same as freewheels and 126 OLD wheels that take a freewheel are likely easier to find than one that takes a cassette.

There is nothing wrong with what a Shimano (Tourney) freewheel. The removal mechanism for these is better than any of the freewheels that use a removal tool with prongs and the twist tooth design is nice. These are widely available and relatively inexpensive. New freewheels are not hard to find; or find a used one if you prefer.

Positron400

Yea, I am aware of the difference between a freewheel and a cassette. I don't like working/having bikes with freewheels, because they usually are a pain to get off the hub and i don't have the necessary tools. Whereas I have all the tools required to change a cassette. Plus they are usually lighter than their comparable freewheel counterparts. Additionally, to me personally, the offerings of the tourney freewheels don't look all that nice and don't really fit the aesthetic i am going for

rustystrings61 

I figure late 80s-early 90s will get you where you want to go as far as 126mm spaced freehubs. You'll want to look for 7-speed units with Hyperglide cassettes and probably avoid the earlier Ultraglide stuff - though in its defense, the original 6-speed Ultraglide setup that came with my '88 Specialized Sirrus works great, and when the teeth eventually start to shark fin, I can pull them and flip the loose individual cogs around and use the other side ...