Tourist in MSN

Different fuel types have different air to fuel mixture ratios. Thus different jets are often needed to get the right air to fuel mixture.

Some stoves claim to be able to handle multiple fuels with a single jet, such as Optimus Nova. But my Nova clearly has yellow tipped flames on kerosene, suggesting insufficient oxygen in the air to fuel ratio. That said, most petroleum based fuels have a wide range of ratios that will work, so you can often use a fuel well out of the ideal range. In other words, a yellow tipped flame will still cook your meal, thus in that regard it does work. But you could produce carbon monoxide if too rich a ratio, that is not a problem outside but could be a problem where there is not much air exchange for breathing.

In my previous post number 28 above, I stated:

The Omnifuel comes with three different jets for that purpose. And with the right adapter you could also use the nozzle type butane mix canisters.

tcs

Coleman's current 533 Dual Fuel (white gas and automotive gasoline) single burner stove is alive and well - and Coleman lists it as a 'Best Seller'. It continues in the tradition of the 500-series single burners that date back to the late 1940s. Fine camping stoves, powerful and reliable, but you'd have to be a real fanboy to not call them out as way too big & heavy for cycletouring.



Coleman made in the 1980s thru the 2000s smaller, lighter 'backpacking' single burners: the 400 series, culminating in the 442 Feather of the late noughties. Compared to modern canister stoves, these are still relatively bulky, heavy and fussy. (You can still buy non-Coleman Chinese-manufactured stoves of this style on eBay and Amazon.)

The flyweight stove market is driven by backpacking, not cycletouring, and the nature of backpack cooking has changed over the decades and is dominated today by rapidly and efficiently boiling small quantities of water to rehydrated desiccated meals (NTTAWWT). The market has responded with stoves that are optimized for this. Okay. But if you look through, say, Bike, Camp, Cook, you won't find a single recipe that calls for boiling one cup of water as fast as you can. The meals are based on foodstuffs a cyclist would find in a grocery or market in a town or village you passed through that day, and you'll see terms like saute, simmer, sear, fry and yes, boil, but boiling raw vegetables for long enough to cook them. My old Coleman 400A had a finely controlled burner from blast furnace down to a steady, gentle flame that would allow frying something delicate in a thin-walled aluminum pan, and a broad burner that would heat a cast iron skillet evenly (car camping!) and not create hot spots on flyweight cycletouring pans.

M Rose

no I don’t have any specific information from MSR, as I tried to make it obvious; it was speculation because MSR doesn’t have any information as to what the cap and do-ring are made out of, and knowing what I know about fuel’s being in the auto repair industry for 20 years.

gauvins

[update]

I've looked at solid, liquid and gaseous fuels, considering (1) availability, (2) energy, (3) cost and (4) convenience. A book-length report would be needed to discuss everything in depth (eg. availability is multifaceted. Each type of fuel is obviously available *somewhere* in *some quantity*, but somewhere may be a few minutes vs several weeks away, and available package size may range between 100 ml up to 4L or more (3 to 160 oz). Similarly, convenience may mean having to prime (or not) the stove, having to clean (or not) soot, boil time, simmering, safety, etc. etc.

Key facts are listed below. They helped me wrap my head around statements such as "gas has twice the heating power of alcohol", "gas and alcohol are fairly equivalent WRT weight", etc.

1. I've ignored gasoline (lots of warnings about safety) and diesel (soot). I've kept kerosene because it appears to be the cheapest source of energy and is said to be available worldwide (with caveats regarding purity in LDCs).

2. I've kept beeswax because it has (surprisingly) one of the best energy potential, up there with butane/propane. The problem is that there is no stove on the market AFAIK that will burn wax cleanly. Very low efficiency means tons of soot on the pot and, well, an inefficient system.

3. Butane dominance is such that it usually can be found conveniently -- in my experience, ISO canisters are the most common fuel system in the Western World. In the specific instance that propped me to revise my system (Indian Himalaya) it can be found in several locations as well. Butane/propane can usually be found in alternative forms where ISO canisters aren't readily available. (i.e. cartridge; camping gas canisters, etc.).

4. The situation WRT alcohol is complex. (a) Hand sanitiser is perhaps, nowadays, the most widely available type of usable fuel -- and you can carry it in the plane (100/350ml as carry-on, up to 2L checked, depending on the jurisdiction). We had a leftover of 62% isopropyl (i.e. lower than typical) sanitiser at home. Poured in a Fancy Feast (tiny cat food can) it was enough to make water hot enough to make soup/coffee/oatmeal/etc. The downside was some soot (not much). My superficial hunt for purer ethanol or isopropyl alcohol (99%+) had me either stunned by the high prices or more simply by the fact that I ended up empty handed most of the time. My conclusion is that for all practical purposes, with the exception of hand sanitizer, alcohol is not more readily available than gas canisters.

5. My preferred system was Esbit (hexamine solid fuel). I am now planning to move to gas (see table below) because Esbit has become outrageously expensive, is abandoned by retailers, and provides little to no benefit in comparison to gas.

Fuel is an energy store, so this was my starting point. Alternative fuels fall neatly in two categories: high (gas, beeswax, kerosene) and low (hexamine, ethanol) density fuels. I've added a price per gram column and computed the amount of fuel needed to raise the temperature of 1L (4 cups, i.e. 1 day solo) of water to a boil starting at room temperature, the cost of doing so, and the amount of fuel needed for trips of varying length. Weight and cost estimates are provided for three efficiency levels, varying from 1 (theoretical maximum) down to 0.2 (unmitigated windy day). I've also considered the system weight (stove, stand, fuel container if applicable). The 25g for a butane system refers to the controversial BRS3000t. For Ethanol, I weighted an Evernew DX + ridiculously lightweight can. For hexamine, 11g is not a typo -- the Esbit titanium stove also falls in the ridiculously lightweight category. Last, 320g for kerosene is the weight of an MSR Whisper"Lite".

So, I've played with the numbers on my chart and ended up convinced that butane is a winner. I've purchased a BRT3000 stove and was able to bring 2x500ml to 80C with 7g of gas or so (kitchen scale being accurate at +/- 1g), on the counter-top, i.e. room temperature and no wind, on the one hand, no wind screen and no heat exchanger OTOH. I have an Olicamp XTS -- pot with heat exchanger -- in the mail , said to improve efficiency by 30-40%. Now these figures almost certainly apply to "blow torch" boil time trials where a large fraction of the fuel is wasted, as if you were trying to drink water from a firehose, whereas my test was conducted at minimal heat output. Yet, an heat exchanger pot + a 3/4 windscreen should make the system quite efficient in challenging conditions. For instance boil test data for the MSR Windburner show results that are nearly identical in calm vs windy conditions.

To summarize, I am moving to a butane system. I'll test the benefits of an heat exchanger vs standard pot, and of a windscreen. I expect the system to be more efficient, more powerful and certainly much cheaper than fuel tablets. Will eventually report and address other issues (gas works at very high altitude, works at well below freezing, it is possible to store the stove always connected to the canister, thus avoiding fuel loss + wear and tear).


The table indicates that a perfectly efficient butane system will need 7g of fuel to bring 1 L of water to a rolling boil, vs 36g at .2 efficiency (ex: no wind screen + windy day). One boil will cost between $0.28 and $1.42 depending on efficiency. A butane system, optimistically assuming that you carry the exact amount of fuel needed, will weigh 218g for a long week-end trip, and 2Kg for a 3-month trip, on day 1, if you were to carry all the fuel needed.

Energy values taken from zenstoves.

IPassGas

Complicated analysis and perhaps a realization of recent market trends. Yes those little butane cans are common in rich countries, but are bad, people do not recycle. Naphtha/kerosene is commonly available. Unless you are flying somewhere and so have difficulties bringing a stove, I'd prefer Naphtha/kerosene.

indyfabz

I’ll stick with white gas for my MSR Dragonfly and Optimus Nova.

indyfabz

I believe we had 3 of the 400 series on our ACA group Northern Tier tour in 1999. That was for 13 people at the start. We also had two or three fuel bottles. Think they were 32 Oz. I do remember the stoves being somewhat fussy, especially to prime.

That photo brings back memories. Especially the little red end and the pump on the back side. Camping was totally new to me. I asked to be in the last cooking pair so I could watch and learn. When it was finally my turn the big pot of water we were heating for pasta along with two of the stoves fell along over on uneven ground. I went to pick up one of the stoves and burned the crap out of my right index finger. I have had a numb spot ever since.

Nice overall post, BTW.

Tourist in MSN

Good analysis.

My recent backpacking trip, almost every day had 7 cups of water to boil, days usually started in 40s (F) (or about 5 C). Since teh coffee drinking was in the morning, most of the stove fuel was consumed in mornings, not the warmer evenings. And, yes I carried that exorbitantly heavy measuring cup (20 grams) to have about the right amount of water in my meals.

That is about 1 and 2/3 liters per day to boil. Used about 28 grams per day for those 1.67 liters, or about 17 grams of fuel to boil one liter. Butane fuel, Snow Peak stove, 1 liter Evernew Ti pot. Some days windy, some not. Pot was not one of the heat exchanger models.

Bike touring where I am inclined to eat more normal food and less add stuff to boiled water type meals, my fuel usage increases. My Canadian Maritimes trip in 2019, I used 27 grams of butane per day, but I also ate a lot of meals in restaurants, which counteracted the meals that were more fuel intensive.

The photos below are more fuel intensive than boiling a few cups of water, unfortunately the tiny fry pan makes ham and eggs a two course meal.





Pasta meals, I was moving the two pots back and forth, one was always on the stove and the other waiting in turn.



Pasta meals are much more fuel intensive than the add stuff to boiled water meals.

gauvins

I mentioned in the OP that alcohol is preferred by some, precisely because of the apparent recycling problem. So I agree with you, up to a point, WRT the recycling argument.

Now, to be honest, I can't find support for that claim. (1) Most other types of fuel are also sold in containers, metal or plastic, that may or may not be recycled, so in relative terms, the outcome isn't clear. (2) The number of canisters used in a year most likely pales in comparison with the number of beverage containers that are discarded. In absolute terms, the recycling problem is trivial. The more environmentally conscious backpacker will dispose of empty canisters at a recycling depot (frequent in parks), or empty/crush and put them in a recycling container.

Actually, one could argue that gas canisters are more environmentally friendly due to their lower content in greenhouse gas. Then again, trivial, but interesting factoid nonetheless

staehpj1

It has been posted by some in past threads that they won't use butane because the canisters won't be recycled. That always puzzled me since they usually were still burning white gas or alcohol that came in a metal or plastic container that seemed about as likely or unlikely to get recycled.

I will admit that recycling was sometimes pretty inconvenient on tour with many places just seemingly not participating in the practice. As a result I know that I was sometimes not as conscientious as usual. That had nothing to do with which type of container though.

Tourist in MSN

Empty butane canisters that I have at home, I puncture them several times. Let them sit outside for several days punctured until all smell is gone. Then put them in the metal recycling bin. That has not been a problem yet. That said, every community has different rules for recycling programs.

I have several Prospector Pick hammers, they are very good at putting in punctures, but at their cost I would not recommend buying one if that is your sole use for it.

This info is four years old, not sure if still current.
https://www.msrgear.com/blog/recycli...pro-canisters/

gauvins

Tourist in MSN Thanks for the link. Instructive. I was assuming that canisters where somewhat like aluminium cans.

staehpj1

A google search for "puncturing butane canisters" will turn up pictures of a few tools specifically made for the task. I have always managed with whatever bottle or can opener I had with me. At home a welders chipping hammer has gotten the job done.

tcs

Not arguing for or against anything in particular, but...

Availability as of 2022? Automotive gasoline by a mile (1.6 kilometers), worldwide.

Recycling containers? Auto gas is drawn out in small quantities into a reusable container. (I've had the same fuel bottle for 40+ years. Yeah, I had to replace the o-ring.)

Greenhouse gas from burning - okay, but there's also supply-chain carbon footprint. Data? None, but I suspect that as a massive, mature, efficient industry that ships and distributes in bulk to every point on the globe, auto gas scores pretty well.

Some of my camping gear is 45 years old. In just ~1/3rd that much more time, we're supposed to be carbon-free. Hmm. Uh, bio-ethanol?? Otherwise, it's GoSun solar cookers, plan to cook mid-day and hope for sun. Other suggestions?

As an aside, my village here in Parts Unknown admitted that in this region at this time only glass and metal are financially viable to recycle. Everything else goes to the landfill.

gauvins

tcs Thanks for your comment WRT to gasoline. Made me read more about the canister disposal problem.

Could you expand a bit? (1) Do you refill your fuel bottle -- say, 1 quart -- at the pump? Do you have to use an adapter in order to fit the pump nozzle? (2) which stove and what does the process looks like? Multi fuel stoves like the Whisperlite require priming. Some do this with alcohol, others with a small quantity of whatever fuel is in the bottle. (3) Can you fly with your bottle or you purchase one at destination?

Tourist in MSN

I am not TCS, but I will give a few answers.

1 - I was low on white gas on a bike tour, I added 15 cents of gasoline to my stove fuel bottle directly from a gas pump. The MSR, Brunton, and Optimus bottles have the same thread. Newer Primus bottles have a slightly different thread but the older Primus had the same thread as MSR, etc. I also added diesel directly from a pump, that was when I learned that my stove and diesel number 2 did not like each other.

I choose not to use auto gas unless I absolutely have to, there are additives in it that are intended for the engine, not for my stove. But some people regularly use it without problem.

The question you did not ask is stove fuel bottle markings. I have no clue about Canada but in most or probably all states in USA, red is for gasoline, non-red for kerosene, etc. That said, nobody is going to have a problem with you using your fuel bottle on a stove regardlous of color, but at a gas station if you put gasoline in a bottle that was not red, if an employee of the gas station saw you there could be an issue. The kerosene labeled can in my garage is yellow, it is a 5 gallon can. I have also seen kerosene cans that were blue, so I am not sure if they changed the color designation at one time or not, my kerosene can is decades old, kerosene is printed right on it.

2 - White gas has a flash point below 100 degrees F, but kerosene at or above 100 F. Thus, you can make a puddle of gas and put a match in it to light it. If you have kerosene, you can't light it with a match, but if there is a wick you can light the wick and that can warm up the cup that has the kerosene in it. Some people carried alcohol to prime kerosene stoves, a paste used to also be sold for this, but I think most stoves now have a wick that will allow kerosene to be used to prime it. But priming a stove with kerosene is a very sooty procedure. I suspect some people carry alcohol for this reason on a kerosene stove. When I use my stove for a week on kerosene, it is pretty sooty.

3 - The MSR link that I previously posted on flying with a stove answers that better than I can. Before I flew with my stove, I cleaned out the fuel bottle, and days later it still smelled of kerosene. I gave it a white gas rinse, that dissolved the kerosene that was still in teh bottle and when I cleaned it again, no more smell after a few days because the gas evaporated. But I did a good clean with soap and water and let is air out a few days. Kerosene essentially does not evaporate fast enough for an empty bottle to lose the smell very fast.

Different topic, you were looking at fuel usage. When I am camping, sometimes I will boil water on a butane stove, shut if off. Minutes later, re-light it for my second cup of coffee. But if I am using one of my liquid fuel stoves, if you shut it off for more than part of a minute, re-priming it when it is hot is really troublesome, so there may be times you are running a liquid fuel stove on a very low setting to keep it lit where if you were using butane you could shut it off.

Different stoves have a different fuel requirement for priming, I have a primus that I think consumes about 5 grams or maybe more to prime it, those grams of fuel did not heat up any water, it has a design that is inefficient for priming. A lot of the newer stoves are more efficient in that regard.

And the amount of fuel to boil a liter of water varies a lot, my old 111B or 111T clearly use more fuel than some of the newer stoves. Those were the go too expedition stoves decades ago, but by todays standards they are quite heavy and I would never use one on a bike tour.

I noted above that my recent backpacking trip, I used about 28 grams per day for butane fuel, but that was just boiling some water. My canoe trip last year involved several pasta meals and more cooking compared to just heating water, on that trip I used 56 grams of white gas fuel per day, that was with my 111B stove in the photo below.



I clearly use less fuel in a butane stove because no fuel is needed for priming and I never run a butane stove in idle with nothing on the stove. But liquid fuels are a lot cheaper and if you are willing to use auto gas, are much more readily available.

gauvins

I didn't know that you could get minute quantities of fuel at the pump. I recall some gas stations *not* selling in quantities of less than $5. Which is why I was asking.

hmmm... not sure if it is enforced here, but the VAST majority of jerrycans are red (and plastic). I've seen green (metal) jerrycans in Oz, for diesel.

Priming multi-fuel stoves (waste, time, risk of failure if you can't ignite the primer) is THE reason why our WhisperLite gathers dust and will, probably forever. I am still working on improving my workflow. BRT3000 + Olicamp XTS + cheap Alcan windscreen + keeping the burner at a very low output level, I get two cups of water hot enough to make tea/oatmeal/ramen on a measly 3.7g (73% efficiency). This is a counter-top, room temperature trial, still, I'd how to be able to do my thing on 10g/day. Which raises the question of "system design" (ex: carry a 100g canister in a tiny pot + a 450g reserve from which I'd refill the small canister -- would reduce waste and allow me to travel with a smaller pot. VS a larger pot in which a 225g (i.e. regular size) canister is nested. Impacts what else is stored in the pot (ex: no mug), etc. etc. etc. Will keep me busy for a little while

steine13

​​
>> Priming multi-fuel stoves (waste, time, risk of failure if you can't ignite the primer) is THE reason why our WhisperLite gathers dust and will, probably forever.


This is why I was asking about the lighter Coleman stoves. Mine never needed priming; the fuel atomized on the way to the burner.

​​​​​​The Whisperlite is a great stove, except for the priming mess. And the clogging.

I'm thinking I'll go lightweight alcohol for trips and canister for short outings. I always take a canister stove on car trips,even when not camping.

indyfabz

People have trouble priming multi-fuel stoves? I must be doing something wrong. Just got done with a tour. Cooked 6 dinners and boiled water for coffee 9 times, No problems with my not/new Optimus Nova.

Camp pasta e fagioli with onions and fresh sage.

Tourist in MSN

Good luck with that goal of less than half the fuel use I use when I am backpacking.

I usually use unfiltered water when boiling water for food or hot drink, rely on the boiling for disinfection. I could make coffee with slightly cooler water if I used filtered water instead, but I do not mind carrying a few extra grams of fuel. Thus I spend less time filtering water, I typically filter two liters per day, as I do not travel much in hot environments. Probably half of my water usage is boiled instead of filtered, more than half is boiled when I make pasta.

Those heat exchanger pots can add efficiency, but in my case I am content to use stuff that I have been using for over a decade. Yes, it means a few more grams of fuel, but I am not doing a round the world tour like you are planning. If I was planning such a trip, I would be replacing a lot of stuff.

My comment on one of my stoves that consumed a lot of fuel when priming, when I saw the Primus Express Lander, that was the smallest lightest liquid fuel stove I had ever seen. Which intrigued me, it could almost compete with butane stoves for weight and bulk, thus I bought one.

But, the design of the stove has a pre-heat fuel line above the burner. That line is full of liquid fuel before priming, and in the process of priming, that fuel is all burned when some of it is boiled which forces the rest of the liquid fuel in that line into the priming cup, causing flareup. Most other modern multi-fuel stoves do not waste that much fuel. I only recall using this stove on one trip, bought it about eight years ago. I used it so rarely that I do not think I have a photo of mine, this photo I found on the internet.



If I was doing a round the world tour where I planned on butane for all my stove fuel, I might consider an Express Lander as a backup in case I can't find butane. But I do not think it has been sold for some time and might be very hard to find. They did not sell very many of them. I have seen photos of a version of it that could be used with both butane and white gas, but have not seen one in person and I do not recall seeing any for sale anywhere.

Regarding difficulty in priming liquid fuel stoves, once you get used to your stove you know how much fuel you need in the priming cup and you rarely have any trouble priming it if you are using it every day. And if you are not using kerosene, it is not very dirty or sooty. It takes a few minutes, but is not a big deal. That said, if you plan to use about 10 grams of fuel a day, you won't get far with a liquid fuel stove.

I really can't imagine trying an around the world trip with such frugal goals for stove fuel, which relates to the types of food you would be eating. The longer one of my trips is, the more normal food I want instead of dehydrated camp food.

I was packing up food for a canoe trip last night, I do not think I can get it all into an XL Ursack. Non-camping, non-dehydrated foods are more bulky.

staehpj1

I am a little surprised that after having used it enough to master it you would find the process troublesome enough to avoid the stove. It probably is more annoying depending on fuel choice in that carry something else to prime with is a bit of extra trouble.

FWIW, the process of letting the priming cup fill without overflowing does take a bit of practice and you may run it over at first when learning or maybe again after not using the stove for a long time. If that is an issue an eye dropper or a speciall cap for the fuel bottle will resolve the issue. A home made version of the filler cap is pictured below.

djb

As another long time whisperlight user, I agree on getting used to how much fuel to pool in the bowl , but it's not that tricky.
The main thing I've always thought is that with a whisperlight, you're never really going to start it under your tent vestibule because of a potential flare up, so not ideal.
Mine is a regular one, so only white gas, so I've never had clogged jet issues.

gauvins

Tourist in MSN clarifications:

(1) I am not considering a rtw trip in the foreseeable future because Russia and Xinjiang are, how to put it, problematic. I am seriously considering Ladakh and, one thing leading to another, looking at alternatives to solid fuel.

(2) I am not making predictions about real world fuel consumption, yet. Just saying that I am testing (indoors, in "ideal conditions") various configurations with the goal of maximizing efficiency, defined in terms of quantity of fuel required to bring water to a target temperature (I always use potable water, so there's no need for rolling boil). Yesterday I was down to less than 3.5g.

I think that the most important factor is simply to lower the flame. I am not very methodical, so I'll just say that my base line was something like 7g. Down to 5g simply by lowering the flame (heating takes close to 10 minutes). Heat exchange pushed efficiency to 4g; Caldera-like wind shield down to less than 3.5g - unlike typical cone, my aluminium foil is wide open on the lower 25% to avoid overheating the canister. Still, it reduces heat losses and funnels hot air along the pot sides. And will shield from the wind if there is wind

(3) I haven't made up my mind WRT what my kit will be. (i.e. pot size, stove, etc). Might eventually post

tcs

No perfect stove/fuel - that's why it's so much fun to argue talk about.

In my gas days I was a Coleman user - prime with the pump! Went on a few tours back in the day sharing a fellow cycletourist's Svea and primed it like this:


I'd leave on tour with the stove's tank and the fuel bottle full of white gas. Towards the end of a tour I'd 'cheat' and use pump gas - that's almost certainly why my Coleman 400A doesn't work anymore (...and Coleman hasn't offered spares for the 400A in decades. )

These days I'm mostly an alcohol guy (uh, stove) and burn Klean Strip Green when I can and Heet yellow when I have to.

https://www.99boulders.com/best-alcohol-stove-fuels

I've adapted my cooking/recipes accordingly. I can turn edible meals out of what I can find in a small town store. Best stove/fuel of-whatever-kind-you-have tip: like Woody Allen once said, practice a lot when you're alone.

I've got a little generic canister stove and I like it. It's got a nice broad burner and it's easy to cook on [cook-cook, not just boil water (NTTAWWT)]. Here in Lower Slobbovia, you're not going to find canisters anywhere outside the capital city of Crumnik. Hey, everybody's got their own kick, that that's cool, but I've taken some effort to reduce single-use items from my life and it frustrates me that still in 2022 iso-butane canisters are single-use even though there's nothing wrong with them other than being empty. I think the smart girls and boys in the iso-butane industry can do better.

Russ Roth

I've got two that use the thread on msr canisters, between the wife and I we carry 4 8oz cans and while we've run low haven't had an issue with running out and they seem readily available in my experience. For back up we carry a Vargo hexagon wood stove, it folds up fairly small, weights nothing being made of Ti. Not certain in fire prone areas if it qualifies as a campfire, I'd assume not being enclosed on 5 sides with a pot on top, it can be fully enclosed when done using it.