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Would you enjoy racing less...

Old 03-22-21, 12:36 PM
  #26  
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when I'm in a race and whatever I'm using and whatever they're using I'm going to beat them.
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Old 03-22-21, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
when I'm in a race and whatever I'm using and whatever they're using I'm going to beat them.
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Old 03-22-21, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Phatman View Post
I was thinking more along the lines of "Enter a race running the same equipment as me? That's a paddlin"
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Old 03-22-21, 07:17 PM
  #29  
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I like the complexity and never being able to figure out the secret sauce. Being able to get the good stuff is part of the competition. Same as a lot of auto racing - I prefer the complexity around the teams and car prep.
The more you standardize everything they more it comes down to just the athlete and removes variables. I find variables in sport more exciting. This has been well tested in soccer where the human refs who are pretty good, introduce human error and that just adds an aspect to the game. At one time I learned I could finish better getting a job so I could buy a decent bike and afford entry to a race vs training and having no money to enter. That was my early 80s. Then I found I was not good anyway, but at least I got to ride some really nice bikes to work.

The Keirin was mentioned. Is the excitement around the betting (in Japan) or the sport? I think the former. Pretty hard to see Keirin for the fans on TV. UCI Worlds are nice, but I don't find myself checking in on Keirin races very often.
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Old 03-23-21, 04:16 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Phatman View Post
Relatively slower, like in comparison to the rest of the pack, because you would have the same gear as everyone else?



I've definitely flatted out of a break before, it was not a good feeling, after that I only used "normal" racing tires, not the superlight/fast rolling ones. Never run Gatorskins in a race, but I have used a Michelin Carbon on a back wheel. Then again, Michelin Carbons were unusually nice
handling training tars.
I'd be slower both in absolute terms and relative to the competition who I feel I'm currently generally faster than on a technical/technological basis, though there are a of couple of local guys that have adopted the shorter cranks and/or latex tubes as they become privy to the insight.

I think at this point there's a very solid mix of CRR and durability amongst the top couple of road tires. TT tires take it up another level, but those are for specific use.
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Old 03-23-21, 05:16 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I like the complexity and never being able to figure out the secret sauce. Being able to get the good stuff is part of the competition. Same as a lot of auto racing - I prefer the complexity around the teams and car prep.
The more you standardize everything they more it comes down to just the athlete and removes variables. I find variables in sport more exciting. This has been well tested in soccer where the human refs who are pretty good, introduce human error and that just adds an aspect to the game. At one time I learned I could finish better getting a job so I could buy a decent bike and afford entry to a race vs training and having no money to enter. That was my early 80s. Then I found I was not good anyway, but at least I got to ride some really nice bikes to work.

The Keirin was mentioned. Is the excitement around the betting (in Japan) or the sport? I think the former. Pretty hard to see Keirin for the fans on TV. UCI Worlds are nice, but I don't find myself checking in on Keirin races very often.

The human body/mind is pretty complex. Have you figured out the secret sauce and all the variables? Do tell.
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Old 03-23-21, 07:42 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
The human body/mind is pretty complex. Have you figured out the secret sauce and all the variables? Do tell.
Certainly not a lot, but enough to give a kid an advantage over those that knew less. I've been posting about it sine 2009 (I think). You sound like you were far more dominant in your categories. My kid's racing was very close and lots of little things made a difference. It was always a combo of the rider and those supporting the rider - the training, logistics, equipment and balance against other important things. The developing adolescents / teens were certainly enough variables, but the non riding support teams around the riders made it even more interesting to me. Equipment selection was a large part of that.
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Old 03-23-21, 10:15 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
when I'm in a race and whatever I'm using and whatever they're using I'm going to beat them.
It's only hubris if I fail.
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Old 03-23-21, 12:08 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Phatman View Post
...Anyways, if there was a rule change to make everyone be basically on the same bike, and you really just had to focus on training and tactics, would it make cycling less fun for you?
I already gave my opinion about enjoying variables. But to this OP...You mean actually allow all racers in the race to use the same equipment? Like juniors would be allowed to use the same gears as adults? I would vote for that. At this time there are a group of pretty fast racers being handicapped by the rules. Fix that first.

The larger difference is more likely teams/non-teams and the support behind them. I realize the recreational racer (the 95% of USAC racers) can do a lot just based on themselves. The top level of the sport, is a team sport. At the elite level there are likely as many staff supporting the racers as there are racers.
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Old 03-23-21, 01:12 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
I was thinking more along the lines of "Enter a race running the same equipment as me? That's a paddlin"
https://youtu.be/sKiLfH3DVGc

I have a friend who was a pro mountain biker back in the day. He'd show up on the local group ride and win it on his mountain bike with knobbies. He'd show up for a NYC park and win that. He'd win whatever he could, whenever he could.

I used to be able to win those group rides on a fixed gear. 36 hole wheels with gatorskins. Whatever. You show up with what you got, however you are, and you game it.

Athletics are littered with stories of people over coming adversity to win any way. That's what it's all about.

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Old 03-24-21, 12:03 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I already gave my opinion about enjoying variables. But to this OP...You mean actually allow all racers in the race to use the same equipment? Like juniors would be allowed to use the same gears as adults? I would vote for that. At this time there are a group of pretty fast racers being handicapped by the rules. Fix that first.
The gear restriction isn't a lifetime thing, and I tend to think its a good thing. I'm not sure I can definitely say that the lower gears improve pedaling technique, but I think that its probably good thing for kids under 18 to be handicapped when compared to adult riders, it effectively prevents overeager parents from pushing their kids too hard and too early into world class competition. Other sports have age-grouping leagues to limit this, like little league baseball and the high-school-->college-->professional progression in football. In sports that don't have those systems like gymnastics or some extent, track and field, you get a decent amount of exploited kids that burn out before they reach adult competition.
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Old 03-24-21, 02:49 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Phatman View Post
The gear restriction isn't a lifetime thing, and I tend to think its a good thing. I'm not sure I can definitely say that the lower gears improve pedaling technique, but I think that its probably good thing for kids under 18 to be handicapped when compared to adult riders, it effectively prevents overeager parents from pushing their kids too hard and too early into world class competition. Other sports have age-grouping leagues to limit this, like little league baseball and the high-school-->college-->professional progression in football. In sports that don't have those systems like gymnastics or some extent, track and field, you get a decent amount of exploited kids that burn out before they reach adult competition.
You have examples of other sports where a kid is playing the adult pros and they are limited? If a little league player was good enough for the AAA they would have a bat restriction? The progressions you list are for all competing in a class having the same restrictions. The point of rules in the open classes is not to coach, not to teach. They are to provide a fair even competition so we can find who the best is. If the idea is to teach and coach, why not apply it to everyone in that class. Why does a Cat 5 30 old beginner not need to learn how to spin and Cat 1 and Pro kids do?

Rules being about parenting? My parenting would say a rider forced to spin higher RPMs is subject to injuries that a rider that can shift [to a bigger gear] is not. World Class Completion happens years before they get the big gears. They can get WT contracts while still on restrictions, the parent pushing thing is not valid they must compete at the world class level as a kid to get the contract later (Primoz and a few others being an exception), not that that should be the point of a rule either.

Last edited by Doge; 03-24-21 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 03-26-21, 06:31 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
You have examples of other sports where a kid is playing the adult pros and they are limited? If a little league player was good enough for the AAA they would have a bat restriction? The progressions you list are for all competing in a class having the same restrictions. The point of rules in the open classes is not to coach, not to teach. They are to provide a fair even competition so we can find who the best is. If the idea is to teach and coach, why not apply it to everyone in that class. Why does a Cat 5 30 old beginner not need to learn how to spin and Cat 1 and Pro kids do?

Rules being about parenting? My parenting would say a rider forced to spin higher RPMs is subject to injuries that a rider that can shift [to a bigger gear] is not. World Class Completion happens years before they get the big gears. They can get WT contracts while still on restrictions, the parent pushing thing is not valid they must compete at the world class level as a kid to get the contract later (Primoz and a few others being an exception), not that that should be the point of a rule either.
I think youre missing my point. Euros love nudges rather than outright rules. The restricted gearing is a way of saying, We dont want juniors racing with adults, but well let you try and fail because we restrict your gearing. Whether I agree with the method or not, I think theyre right with the motivation. Kids shouldnt be racing for real money when they dont have the self awareness to choose whether they even want to be racing or not.

Anyways, Ive dragged my own thread off topic, but its okay, it think this is an interesting subject too.
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Old 03-26-21, 08:31 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
I was thinking more along the lines of "Enter a race running the same equipment as me? That's a paddlin"
https://youtu.be/sKiLfH3DVGc
love this segment haha. I often refer to it in conversation. To those familiar with it (or me) it can be funny to leave it at "oh, you'd better believe that's a paddlin'?
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Old 03-26-21, 09:38 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Phatman View Post
...
Anyways, Ive dragged my own thread off topic, but its okay, it think this is an interesting subject too.
I think this may be closer to topic. The idea being classes and types of racing therefore equipment needed.
This is both in rider level/ability and roads/events they select. At the entertainment level (real pros) there will always be something tossed in to make it interesting. Id be happy if they just kept Grand Tour stages to pavement.
For beginners it makes complete sense to have a standard bike. No carbon :-) The gear thing I would not limit as I believe there is room to allow people to pedal how they want and some do better differently than others. There are some fixie races too that get pretty popular. But back to the top level - there are generally more staff than riders on the road at any one time. That level - it is always going to remain complex.
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Old 03-26-21, 10:19 AM
  #41  
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Anyway - Yeah I find spec racing boring no matter the sport or discipline.

To illustrate some of the points people made earlier I have a quick story. There was a banquet dinner for all the crews and teams after the Purdue Grand Prix one year. We had Dick Simon (of indy car fame but at the time was running Dick Simon Racing) speak. He relayed a story about how him and a couple of friends/mechanics, etc decided one year to race go-karts in a series. It was supposed to just be fun and like most kart racing it was a spec class. He had stories about how it only took a couple of weeks before he and the rest of them started "circumventing" the intent of the spec without directly violating it. He then went on to say that was the key to all racing success in any discipline: finding the rule that hasn't been written yet and exploiting it until the rule needs to be written.

In any discipline that requires any sort of gear of any type - this will always be the case. Spec or not. In which case I would prefer open classes. That way you know going in that everyone is "cheating".

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Old 03-29-21, 11:30 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
love this segment haha. I often refer to it in conversation. To those familiar with it (or me) it can be funny to leave it at "oh, you'd better believe that's a paddlin'?
Same spirit:
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Old 04-05-21, 12:53 AM
  #43  
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On marginal gains, I heard the same old thing this weekend on a ride talking about how changing some part would only save 40 grams. The way you lose pounds from your kit is to keep adding those up.

I think its the same with aero. Folks focus on how silly it might be to wear an aero helmet, or longer socks, and any one of those in isolation might be negligible.
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Old 04-07-21, 05:11 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Yep View Post
On marginal gains, I heard the same old thing this weekend on a ride talking about how changing some part would only save 40 grams. The way you lose pounds from your kit is to keep adding those up.

I think its the same with aero. Folks focus on how silly it might be to wear an aero helmet, or longer socks, and any one of those in isolation might be negligible.
They add up.
Former coach comes by today and shows me his new replacement S-Works Venge (prior matt finish frame cracked). This one has gloss paint and weighs 1oz more than the other. As he's at the UCI limit anyway it was a good aero investment with concluded. How much - well at least in his brain.
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Old 04-07-21, 06:15 PM
  #45  
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That dude who set the everest record did it on a 12 1/2 pound bike. I think that includes the fairing he used. That's a bit beyond marginal gains. I'd have to replace everything.
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Old 04-08-21, 11:21 AM
  #46  
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With steel pedals, and steel BB spindle, Di2 1X this tipped in just under 12# with out the bottle. Stuff gets squishy much under 12# so that seemed like a good place to stop.


12# without the water bottle.
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Old 04-16-21, 12:14 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
Anyway - Yeah I find spec racing boring no matter the sport or discipline.

To illustrate some of the points people made earlier I have a quick story. There was a banquet dinner for all the crews and teams after the Purdue Grand Prix one year. We had Dick Simon (of indy car fame but at the time was running Dick Simon Racing) speak. He relayed a story about how him and a couple of friends/mechanics, etc decided one year to race go-karts in a series. It was supposed to just be fun and like most kart racing it was a spec class. He had stories about how it only took a couple of weeks before he and the rest of them started "circumventing" the intent of the spec without directly violating it. He then went on to say that was the key to all racing success in any discipline: finding the rule that hasn't been written yet and exploiting it until the rule needs to be written.

In any discipline that requires any sort of gear of any type - this will always be the case. Spec or not. In which case I would prefer open classes. That way you know going in that everyone is "cheating".

https://youtu.be/DJETB-MfpnQ
Hard to believe that "cinzano"-ing someone was ever something that needed a rule written for it, but there probably was a first person who did it.
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Old 04-16-21, 12:46 PM
  #48  
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Would the NFL be MORE interesting if each team had their own specific pads, helmets, shoes, etc? No.

Would NASCAR be LESS interesting if every car were exactly the same? Yes.

Is golf MORE interesting because each golfer has different clubs, balls, and shoes. No.

Would bike racing be MORE interesting if all teams had the exact same kit and bikes? Maybe.
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Old 04-16-21, 02:30 PM
  #49  
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you know what would make bike racing more interesting


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Old 04-16-21, 03:50 PM
  #50  
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The bike is what makes bike racing different from running. Setting up and customizing the bike is part of the enjoyment and excitement, whether its using the latest greatest gear or simply figuring out the best way to make your body and your bike function together. Training and having great gear aren't mutually exclusive.
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