Trakhak

A teammate of mine used to pick out smooth-riding guys on rival teams and extravagantly compliment them on the smoothness of their pedal strokes (e.g., "Man, I could balance a tray of drinks on your back!"). When I asked him why, he said, "If they start concentrating harder on smoothness, they'll start wasting energy, and that'll make my life easier!"

gregf83 

You mean guys like Jens Voight or Thomas Voelkler? Smooth as silk...

FLvector

A smooth pedal stroke = wasted energy?

BoSoxYacht

sometimes people get tense trying to keep the body still, and that wastes energy. The goal is to be loose and smooth.

yooperbiker

I did not attack. Simply pointing out that I didn't get your argument against spinning.

Assuming that you are being sarcastic, like to point out I did not say anything bad against riding rollers. I did point out riding rollers is not very much like riding on the road. Rollers are great training, but stop peddling and you coast like one second. If there is a reason that this is much better that a spin bike, then give your reason. I just don't get the logic that your being able to pedal a spin bike smoothly at a faster cadence (compared to rollers) somehow makes it an inferior effort.

Carbonfiberboy 

If your spin bike has a freewheel I withdraw my comments about pedaling in the case of your spin bike. Then it's the same as riding a bike, though not your own bike, on a trainer with an oversize flywheel.Yeah, so rollers or a small flywheel are better IME, but a freewheel makes all the difference. Then your feet are driving the bike rather than the bike driving your feet. However I've never seen a spin bike with a freewheel. Have you ridden one? It would completely change the usual spin class routine.

Carbonfiberboy 

Riding rollers is a bit more difficult than riding on the road. I always say of training that if it weren't difficult we wouldn't be doing it. But yes, the fact that there is less inertia in the system on rollers than on the road does have a training effect. When riding rollers, besides staying upright, the idea is to maintain a smooth whiirrr. That requires that one keep a nearly constant torque on the bottom bracket. And that's good training which translates well to riding on the road. Better to avoid the tiny accelerations which tire one more than maintaining a steady speed. One of my training partners calls it "banging your legs," those tiny excess muscular contractions that very slowly tire one out over long periods of time. One may not notice that on the road, but it's noticeable on rollers, and that's what makes it good training. As was pointed out on a different thread, it's sort of like not kipping up when doing pullups. Easy to cheat on the road, not so much on rollers.

The thing about being able to spin faster on the spin bike with the same effort is that it is symptomatic of the same aerobic effort having a different effect in two different situations. It's a symptom, so then we might ask, a symptom of what? What's the difference? Well, the difference is that in the two differing situations the pedaling effort has a different result. How could it have a different result? Only if the pedaling effort were different. Hence my "corruption" comment.

woodcraft

Thanks for your points.

What about fixed gear? Same 'corruption'?

yooperbiker

Thank you for the response. Yes, I have been told for years to try to apply torque to the pedals smoothly all the way around each rotation of the crank. Something I alway try to do. This must be written on stone tablet somewhere. The mental image at least does seem to help in smoother pedaling. Of course, the constant torque is really quite impossible and no one actually accomplishes this feat. I sure you have seen the graph below which is actual measured torque through a crank revolution measured from expert level cyclists.


Even with such uneven application of torque (basically a sine wave when looking at combined force from both pedals) the bike speed remains very constant, with almost imperceivable accelerations with pedal stokes (at least when on flat ground).

While smooth pedaling all around a crank revolution I think is a goal of every cyclist, I do think that it is secondary to training for developing maximum power - which I think is really a result of applying higher torque in that area around the 90 degree point of the crank revolution. To that end, it would seem that training on a spin bike would be of great benefit, and the fact that one can pedal a spin bike smoothly at fast cadences is a point in the spin bikes favor.

Carbonfiberboy 

I realize that this is a 3rd rail for some folks but I obviously have no trouble speaking my mind here. Yes, I believe it is similar, but not the same thing. It is easy on a fixed gear to learn to pedal smoothly on a climb while seated because you have feedback. In fact you have to pedal smoothly or the bike stops. Standing, it's not the same, more like a spin bike because you can't have a slack chain on a fixed gear. Too easy. On the flat, it's easy for a fixed gear rider to allow the bike to move their feet rather than their feet moving the bike. One can learn not to do that, but it's easy to do it the other way.

Riding fixed in winter used to be a big thing with the elites 30 years ago. However I don't know of any pros who are doing that today, for the above reasons.

Unfortunately, I don't know of any scientific studies comparing training fixed with training geared.

Carbonfiberboy 

You misunderstand the application of torque. To spin smoothly, one maintains a constant torque on the BB. Ignore the red herring too often served up that equates that to providing a constant torque with a single pedal. It's the sum of the torques of the two cranks that one wants to keep constant. Obviously the lack of torque on the backstroke is complemented by the preponderance of torque with the opposite crank on the downstroke. What's missing then is simply the torque provided while the pedals are near top and bottom dead center. The down pedal provides torque by "scraping mud off the shoe," as Greg LeMond put it. That's not quite as much as the downstroke provides, but it's easy to supplement that with a little forward pressure at the top of the stroke. One quickly learns to fill in torque in the transitions between the quadrants, which is also the trick to never bouncing at any cadence. Thus, constant torque on the BB = even sounding whiirr on the rollers.

To develop maximum power, train like a track sprinter - hit the weight room. I've found it very convenient to take a spin class, then hit the weight room: barbells squats, 30° leg extensions, single leg presses, straight leg deadlifts, weighted lunges, high step-ups. Though now I'm now doing intervals on my rollers at home, then hittng the gym. Even more effective. The heavy flywheel on a spin bike without a freewheel actually provides force on the downstroke, robbing power from your legs. That's why all those spin bikers can spin standing for periods and at cadences that would have climbing road cyclists crying for their mommy. Go ahead: time yourself standing on the spin bike, then go out and climb standing on your road bike for the same length of time and at that same cadence. It's way easier on the spin bike = poorer training. You're missing critical elements of neuromuscular conditioning.

We have a local women's TT champ giving occasional spin classes at our gym. But she does her real training at the gym running (running!) on the Stepmill and lifting or doing mad TRX work in the weight room.

Maelochs

Considering very few of us here (or anywhere) are "Elite Pros" I think a lot of all this is just competitive people doing their competitive things.

I did a 45-minute spin class this morning, followed by a 90-minute road ride. I found the spin class to be an excellent warm-up, and I was a lot more tired at the end than I would have been had I just ridden 135 minutes--probably because I find it easier to push hard in spin class because I don't have to focus on anything but pedaling. When I hit the road I was primed to ride--my heart was pumping strong, my lungs were wide open, my muscles were fully warmed up and ready.

Considering that it was uncomfortably cold when I went to the gym and considerably warmer when I started riding, I'd say for me, on this day, spinning was great.

chaadster

Yes, I've ridden a freewheeling '10 or '11 Cycleops PT300 for years, and all of Cycleops current bikes, the Phantoms, freewheel.

Revocycle freewheels. Lemond G-Force freewheels. ProForm TdF freewheels. There are probably others.

I think the issues surrounding "spinning" are primarily that we talk imprecisely about it, because has become a generic shorthand for "stationary cycling," which takes in many types of stationary bikes beyond fixed flywheel bikes, and also that many people don't know that freewheeling stationary bikes exist, and so their prejudices about fixed flywheel spinning are misapplied as being true across the spectrum.

So it's not a question of "spinning," but rather quality of equipment and training.

Carbonfiberboy 

Thanks for that. There are frequently folks over on T&N asking what stationary bike they should get. I never know what to say.

colnago62

I think the reason we don't see many pros riding fixed gear during the winter is that they have already developed good pedaling form and so the benefits of riding fixed gear is not there. For those of us who are still developing, fixed gear is an effective way to improve cadence and stroke.

woodcraft

It sounds like you are saying here that the goal is always to produce the same effect,

which is not, of course, good training.

Carbonfiberboy 

Again you misunderstand me. If, on your road bike, you can spin at 80 and 100 in the same gear at the same effort . . . You know I just don't think that's going to happen. But OTOH, yes, If you go out on the road today and ride at a particular speed in a particular gear and cadence, you should be able to go out tomorrow or the day after and duplicate that result for that effort. OTOH if you were to train your neuromuscular system over a few months, you might find you can produce a higher cadence for the same speed and effort. Yes, something would have changed.

It seems to me that your comment might concern training specificity. As far as that goes, the first thing to know is what training effect is desired from a particular workout, then to know what optimal workout features produce that training effect. Of course many different training effects are desirable, thus many different workouts are used to produce them. This time of year, I do a different workout every workout day because I want a broad base for next summer.

woodcraft

Trying to follow...

"...you might find you can produce a higher cadence for the same speed and effort. Yes, something would have changed."

Wouldn't just shifting gears account for this? Or if talking about really high cadence, then we're back to the spin bike (which would appear to train the NM system to higher RPMs).

gregf83 

The only place 'constant torque' exists is in your mind. No one pedals with constant torque and if you take the one legged graph shown earlier and add it to a version shifted by 180 degrees you'll see the torque is anything but constant.

In general, the torque applied by either leg at 3 O'clock is twice the average torque.

I don't go to spin class but still believe that any changes to your pedal stroke would be gone within 30 min of riding on the road. Enjoy your spin class if you can't or don't want to ride outside

1983

Solid gold.

Carbonfiberboy 

Maybe have haven't experimented with cadence? Out on a flat road, ride at a steady speed at 80 cadence, say somewhere between 16 and 18 mph. Note your HR and breathing. Shift down enough cogs so that your cadence at the same speed goes up to ~100. Ride like that for a few minutes. Are your HR and breathing the same as at 80? If so, I congratulate you on your excellent pedaling style.

Carbonfiberboy 

Ah Greg . . . I invite the gentle reader to have a go at it themselves rather than read text. I think the easiest entry point is to get so you can pedal at a 115-120 cadence on your trainer or preferably rollers for a solid 45 minutes, staying in zone 2 and with little or no HR drift. You do need a PM or better in this case, HRM, and a cadence display. Try it once a week, starting with 15 minutes and gradually increasing. You'll immediately see what I'm talking about. Doing this little training thing will make you more comfortable on long rides and less cadence sensitive.

If you can't do this little drill because your legs won't let you or you bounce, well fixing those issues is what the drill is good for. It'll do it. Just take the cadence up to a hair under bounce or leg problem and hold it for the time, staying in zone 2. Your cadence will gradually go up with time. Though it might take months for you to be able to do the above as specified, it's worth the effort. A couple months ago would have been a better time to get started with it, but now is a better time than later. Keep your feet flat, wiggle your toes, and imagine that there's a cushion of air between the bottom of your foot and your insole.

This is an excellent recovery ride a couple days after a hard one. Stimulates the legs. Doing this on your rollers or trainer and then doing the exact same thing on the spin bike will also show you exactly what I'm talking about. But don't listen to me! Just do it. OTOH, if you don't have a trainer or rollers, and it's winter, just ride that spin bike but kick the cadence up 5-10 beats higher than the above.

ColaJacket

Wouldn't riding a spin bike with a flywheel (without a freewheel) be similar to riding a fixie?

GH

Carbonfiberboy 

I discussed that in a previous post.

woodcraft

Thanks.

I'll take notes on Saturday's ride.