Mitchemous

Hello all,


I am trying to determine the value of a bicycle that was given to me and has mostly just sat in my basement for a couple of years now. It is a Schwinn Paramount with mostly Campagnolo components. The previous owner of this bike said that the original paint was in bad shape and he had it repainted at the Waterford plant in the late 80's or early 90's (our location is about an hour from Waterford), although I cannot recall what he said the original color was. I tried to take a picture of the engravings that I noticed on the bottom bracket, maybe those will provide insight. I am not sure what I want to do with this bike and am curious what it's value would

be considered. Feel free to ask for whatever information might help as I am not really sure what all to put. I am happy to add more info and pictures.


Here is what I do know about the bike:

• Campagnolo Triple Ring Crankset
  
• Campagnolo Clipped Pedals (not pictured)
  
• Campagnolo Bottom Bracket
  
• Campagnolo Headset
  
• Campagnolo Downtube shifters
  
• Campagnolo Front Derailleur
  
• Campagnolo Handlebars, Leather Wrapped with Campagnolo Bar-Ends
  
• Sachs-Huret Rear Derailleur (non-original)
  
• Weinmann Brakes and levers
  
• Skip-tooth Rear Cassette
  
• Wolber Wheelset
  
• Repainted by Waterford in the late 80's or early 90's
  

cb400bill

Pic Assist - https://www.bikeforums.net/g/picture/26853996

JulesCW 

It's a nice bike -- a mid-70s p-15 is my guess -- can you provide the serial number? That would help a lot in narrowing it down. A Waterford repaint is a good one, but the newer style decals and mixed bag of components detract from the value for collectors-- but it is likely a great rider. I'd ask $750 if I were selling it. YMMV. Good luck!

3alarmer 

...this is what the original decals looked like back in the '70's. I don't have a good feel for the value of yours. It's obviously in good shape, but I'm not sure about your marketplace where you live.

Mitchemous

Hi, thank you for the reply! I agree with you about the paint and mixed components. As far as I can tell the RD and wheels are the only mismatched parts. Maybe the rear cassette as well? Do you think it would be profitable to put the correct components back on? Probably not the wheels but the RD and Cassette?

I posted pictures of the bottom bracket, it is hard to make out what the engravings say. What should the serial number format look like?

Mitchemous

That red looks very nice! Do you know what year?

JulesCW 

The hand engraved numbers on the bottom bracket are likely not the serial number -- probably id #s put there by a prior owner. The serial number of this bike should be stamped into the non-drive side rear dropout.

Once you find the serial # consult Waterford's handy guide to Paramount decoding: https://waterfordbikes.com/w/culture...amount-dating/

If you have a Campgnolo NR rear derailluer sitting on the shelf perhaps change it out -- otherwise I would not do that (FWIW if a P-15 it might have had a Schwinn approved Shimano Crane RD or a Campagnolo Rally, not a Capagnolo Nouvo Record). The Huret Duopar that's on it will shift better than the Campy units IMHO. I would not bother changing the freewheel at all (this bike and the replacement wheels currently on it are pre-cassette -- they use a screw-on freewheel). It looks like the PO set it up well for a wide-ish range gearing -- and it probably works well -- I'd leave like that!

wrk101

I do not think the replacement freewheel has any impact on value. The repaint and newer decals are value killers to collectors. Cancelling out collectors greatly reduces value, as its now just a really nice vintage bike with Campy parts. That still has value, typically its equal to or less than the value of the parts.

Its a shame Waterford didn't use era correct decals.

Hand engraved numbers/letters tend to be either SS# or DL #. Non-drive drop out will have the Schwinn serial number.

Financially, rounding up the missing parts, unless you have them in hand, would be a waste of money as the repaint and wrong decals are what are holding the value back. An avid collector would be able to find the missing parts, could likely already have them.

juvela

-----

frame and most of the kitting appear to hail from ca. 1972

transfer set is of a pattern later than frame

the fact that no braze-ons have been added is a value plus for collectors/enthusiasts

note that a dropbolt was required to accommodate the Weinmann Carrera rear caliper


-----

bikemike73 

wrong decals and large frame bring down the value for most.

Still.....a VERY NICE bike.........

Quick sale $500

Wait until Spring /Summer $650- $ 700 depending on location.

Good Luck

SoCaled 

As I often say here, "I only know enough to get myself in trouble" , with that out of the way

Does it make sense that Waterford would put on the wrong decals? if so would it have been at the customers request?
As far as the engraving on the bottom bracket, was that done after the repaint? Does not all seem to be filled with paint, particularly the "6203"?

xiaoman1 

Nice looking P......If it was mine I would put an original style decal on the seat tube and leave it at that, a Waterford Paint job is a high quality one and nothing to scoff at. There is always the thought that a large frame will bring less, perhaps correct if you are after a fast sale...remember that there are tall folks out there looking for the right size frame.....set a reasonable price on it and take a breath, it will sell.....600-800 would be my estimate.
Don't give it away...as i said put a correct looking seat tube decal on it, it will make a major aesthetic difference!
Best, Ben

Kabuki12

Very nice bike . I know the value is affected by anything other than original equipment on these Paramounts so I agree with what others have said about that . I had one that had been touched up a bit with the chrome mostly original parts but still couldn’t get 500 for it due to collectors fussy concerns over wanting it original. The owner had given it to me to sell for him and ended up giving it to his son. I tried for over a month and thought it would sell quickly for the seemingly low price . That one is my size and I usually get pretty good deals on bikes because the larger bikes take longer to sell , it just takes someone with longer legs.

TugaDude

Not a big deal at this point, but when you do go to sell it, I noticed you said it has Campagnolo handlebars. I think they are probably Cinelli, and the stem is likely Cinelli also. They are nice components.

I agree with the regrettable decals, and it does affect collector value. But I also agree with the fact it is a quality repaint at least. Don't know what they charged back then, but nowadays it would cost at least $900.00 for them to repaint it. More than some suggest the entire bike is currently worth. So there's that.

Here is a page from the Waterford website. https://waterfordbikes.com/fv/pricing/ It shows pricing and also lists the cost for a "provenance report". For a fee ($50.00), they will research the original specs and all of the important details of manufacturing date, etc. and provide a written report. Might not be worth it to you to have that information, but it is there should someone want it. Might even detail when it was repainted, etc. Probably does.

Anyways, nice bike for a taller rider and I hope it goes to someone who will cherish it.

Mitchemous

Hello everyone,

Thank you all very much for the great feedback and replies!! The reason for the mismatched paint (if I recall correctly from what the previous owner said) is that it was cheaper to have Waterford repaint the bike with what they were currently "tooled up" for at the time he took it in (sometime in the 80's). The original paint had some blemishes, and he liked the idea of making the bike look more modern, not thinking it would become such a collector’s item. I am guessing it was repainted in 1988 because he did mention that the paint was a special edition paint, they were doing at the time, which looking on Google, it does appear to be the 50th anniversary paint job minus the hallmarks. I do like the idea of adding the seat tube decal and will most likely add that to the bike as high-quality reprints seem to be pretty low cost.

I also can confirm that TugaDude is correct that the bars are Cinelli. I could not find any branding on the stem without removing it, but I will assume it is Cinelli as well.

The real exciting news is that I did locate the serial number on the rear dropout, C74199. If I understand correctly, this would mean this bike was the 199th frame built in March of 1974. Pretty darn cool! As for the engraving on the bottom bracket, it looks like it was original owner's initials lightly engraved over the paint along with his phone number.

I guess the last question I really have for all of you would be where is the best place to list an item like this for sale? I really would like to see it go to someone who will cherish it. I really hoped that I would be that person, but it is just not the bike for me.

wrk101

Assume whoever buys it is going to cherish it. While recreational level (cheaper) bikes can get trashed, people don't pay up for a Paramount to abuse it.

So the question for you is do you want top dollar (most work to sell), or lower dollar (easy to sell). Easy to sell is local: C/L or FB marketplace. Any other sale is going to require packing and shipping. Packing a bike correctly is a lot of work. But that is where the money is.

1970s Paramounts sell on ebay every day. Just look at past SOLDS for pricing, ignore what others are ASKING. Asking = wishing = dreamland.

No location in your profile. If you are in a red hot bike market, say SF, or Vancouver, or Toronto, then a local sale is going to bring ebay money with no headaches. If you live in a soft market, then it could sell for about 1/3 of ebay pricing. Still no fees, so 1/3 ebay is not bad. My rule of thumb on bikes if I can get 1/2 local versus ebay, I'm taking the local sale. And I am a top rated seller on ebay, have two ebay stores right now. So I am not against selling there. Its the packing, buyer wins any dispute, fees, and the pesky 1099 I get from ebay. That all adds up. I'd much rather sell easy to pack high margin stuff like a bike part or a book. Last bike part sale? A set of MTB pedals. Packed in less than one minute. Last non-bike item was a Richard Pryor LP. Easy to pack as well. While margins on non-bike stuff can be 10X, 20X or even more, bike stuff tends to be more like 2x or 3X.