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Immersive waxing / it should be more popular

Old 12-02-22, 07:57 PM
  #526  
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Originally Posted by Vinnems
So if I only ride road and in fair weather... I could get away with just wiping down my chain and throwing it in the pot of wax, no deep clean required? That would have me more interested in waxing, for the sake of the life of the drive train components. I usually do a wipe down of the chain and just apply more wet lube (RnR Gold), but I still get gritty good on the drive train components that it sounds like wouldn't happen as much with wax, since its dry lube.
Before you do your first wax, you will have to clean all the oily gunk and residue out and off of it. Once that's done, I've never had to clean my chain short of wiping it before just throwing it in hot wax and swishing it around for a few minutes. I do dispose of the bottom layer of wax where all the gunk and grit settles over time, but that just involves warming the pot enough to pull it out and chop off about a 1/4" at the bottom, clean the pot, and throw (only the clean wax) it all back in.
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Old 12-02-22, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Hiro11
1. Technically, the factory "lube" isn't lube, it's a rust inhibitor.
2. In my experience dirt and aluminum oxide sticks to the factory "lube" very readily.
3. Wax will absolutely not stick to a chain covered in factory "lube". It's imperative to have a surgically clean chain prior to waxing.

Honestly, in my experience the oil-based lubricants flush out the factory "lube" quickly anyway. I don't think it's necessary to fully clean a new chain if you plan on running wet lube.
technically? what makes it not a lube? from what i read (here for instance: https://www.velonews.com/gear/tech-w...n-a-new-chain/) it is a lube. just not good is the claim. the only other literature i find on the webs are similar articles written by sellers of chain lube.

my unscientific belief is that the lube is fine in clean environments. and i use it until it is time to lube again and when i do i clean the chain in mineral spirits (two baths, dirty, then clean) then use plain boring canning wax for the remainder of its life. works fine. i add nothing to the wax aside from the chain and residual mineral spirits. last me just under a month of use, ~600 miles in very clean conditions. i am high and dry here in reno. and i never ride in the rain unless i get caught in it by mistake.
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Old 12-02-22, 11:54 PM
  #528  
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KY Jelly is a lube. It does not follow that I should use it on my chain, nor that of my bike.
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Old 12-03-22, 03:13 AM
  #529  
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https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/lubetesting/

If you don't want to faff with waxing, just use one of the wax based lubes, they are far superior to traditional bike lubes, factory packing grease, ky jelly, WD-40, or grinding paste.
​​​​​​
It saves chain life and reduces your drivetrain losses.
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Old 12-05-22, 03:40 PM
  #530  
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Just a friendly reminder that there is no need to solvent clean the chain between wax dips beyond the initial one off prep. It seems like some people still do or think that. All that is needed is taking the chain off, dipping it in hot wax, drying it, putting it back on.

The solvent clean is just to strip the chain clean of any lube or factory grease before starting to wax it for the first time, after that it does not accumulate dirt like you are used to with lube or drip on wax, so it can just go straight back into the pot where it is flushed perfectly clean again. Wipe it down once with a cloth to get superficial dust off if needed, but that is all.
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Old 12-05-22, 05:43 PM
  #531  
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Originally Posted by yaw
Just a friendly reminder that there is no need to solvent clean the chain between wax dips beyond the initial one off prep. It seems like some people still do or think that. All that is needed is taking the chain off, dipping it in hot wax, drying it, putting it back on.

The solvent clean is just to strip the chain clean of any lube or factory grease before starting to wax it for the first time, after that it does not accumulate dirt like you are used to with lube or drip on wax, so it can just go straight back into the pot where it is flushed perfectly clean again. Wipe it down once with a cloth to get superficial dust off if needed, but that is all.
This is why I'm really interested in doing waxing now. I've been using liquid lube that, every once in a while, I will take the chain off and and do a deep clean in the ultrasonic to get all the built up gritty junk out, which on these Los Angeles roads, can really build up. But with wax, it sounds like it is a protective cover of the chain at the same time.
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Old 12-05-22, 06:01 PM
  #532  
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In reality, there's plenty of grit sitting inside a waxed chain by the time it needs rewaxing and dipping it in more molten wax doesn't remove it, it just covers it up. Brittle paraffin falls off fairly quickly.
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Old 12-06-22, 12:34 AM
  #533  
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Originally Posted by Vinnems
This is why I'm really interested in doing waxing now. I've been using liquid lube that, every once in a while, I will take the chain off and and do a deep clean in the ultrasonic to get all the built up gritty junk out, which on these Los Angeles roads, can really build up. But with wax, it sounds like it is a protective cover of the chain at the same time.
Hot wax is dry (the chain will be dry to the touch just like a candle is) and therefore does not attract dirt that creates a grinding paste that works its way in. If it gets really dusty, then it just makes sense to wipe the chain with a cloth just to cut down the amount of little particles that come into the wax pot over time. This just serves to extend the period of time a pot of wax lasts before it is time to throw it out and start with a new batch.

You can modulate how much wax is on the outside of the chain by either pulling it out hot (this is what I do to minimise flaking) or by re-dipping it when the wax has cooled a bit, to build up a layer on the outside. The latter can keep the drivetrain quieter for a bit, but it is a bit of a pain to break the links before installing, and most of it will certainly flake off over time anyway, and I do not think that it necessarily assists in keeping the chain cleaner on the outside. If anything, a minimally coated, hot pulled chain has a less flakey surface with fewer nooks for anything to stick to.

You will certainly be able to skip all the deep cleans by resetting the chain with each wax flush. It's going to be quite obvious every time you see how pristine the chain appears under the drying wax when you pull it out.

Originally Posted by DaveSSS
In reality, there's plenty of grit sitting inside a waxed chain by the time it needs rewaxing and dipping it in more molten wax doesn't remove it, it just covers it up. Brittle paraffin falls off fairly quickly.
That does not align with my experience at all. If you bring the wax up to a good heat (let's say slightly above 90C) and let the chain sit in there for a while, the wax is very liquid and swishing the equally hot chain around in the pot will quite obviously agitate and flush each link completely. There is no physical reason for anything to stick to the inside metal surfaces when the wax flushes through. There is no way for any part of the wax inside the chain to remain solid and to be 'covered up' with more wax. Further, I have shaken up everything from oil lubed, drip wax lubed and dry hot waxed chains in solvents and the amount of blackness and black grit that comes out of the former two, requiring multiple rinses, versus a waxed chain, is night and day, not remotely comparable.

Last edited by yaw; 12-06-22 at 04:02 AM.
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Old 12-06-22, 07:34 AM
  #534  
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Originally Posted by yaw
Just a friendly reminder that there is no need to solvent clean the chain between wax dips beyond the initial one off prep. It seems like some people still do or think that. All that is needed is taking the chain off, dipping it in hot wax, drying it, putting it back on.

The solvent clean is just to strip the chain clean of any lube or factory grease before starting to wax it for the first time, after that it does not accumulate dirt like you are used to with lube or drip on wax, so it can just go straight back into the pot where it is flushed perfectly clean again. Wipe it down once with a cloth to get superficial dust off if needed, but that is all.
Agreed. However, just like with regular lube, it's a good thing to deep clean it every once in a while. Wax is not a perfect product that keeps 100% of dirt/grime from getting inside the rollers, but the advantage with wax is that you can simply dip it in hot / boiling water to clean it rather than using chemical products.
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Old 12-06-22, 09:06 AM
  #535  
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Originally Posted by yaw
Just a friendly reminder that there is no need to solvent clean the chain between wax dips beyond the initial one off prep. It seems like some people still do or think that. All that is needed is taking the chain off, dipping it in hot wax, drying it, putting it back on.

The solvent clean is just to strip the chain clean of any lube or factory grease before starting to wax it for the first time, after that it does not accumulate dirt like you are used to with lube or drip on wax, so it can just go straight back into the pot where it is flushed perfectly clean again. Wipe it down once with a cloth to get superficial dust off if needed, but that is all.
can't say i agree with this. look at all the crap in the photo of post https://www.bikeforums.net/22648733-post452.html
metal flakes, brackish mineral spirits. its coming from somewhere. i clean my chains every time and this is the result of the first bath. i ride ~7k mi/yr in a hot climate which makes the wax on the chain a semi melted state during use so stuff does stick to it (albeit not much).

also, in the three years since i've been waxing i've never needed to "clean" the wax, it is nearly as clean as the first day i started.

waxing may take more time than just applying some drip lube but i like to do it. it is a bit therapeutic for me.
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Old 12-06-22, 09:35 AM
  #536  
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I don't wax my chains but the waxers are right on this one, the hot wax will get a lot of the gunk out of the chain since it will all be in solution. You obviously need to agitate the chain well, if you do everything ultra-gentle the dirt will still be in there. That is why some people use those agitator machines. In my view this is the main advantage of hot waxing over something like what I do with Smoove/Squirt/SilcaSS. The drip waxes lube just as well as hot wax but leave more gunk in the chain if it is not cleaned with solvent. To mitigate this a bit, I put on several "coats" of Silca SS to flush some of the dirt out. The first coat gets the blobbed wax/dirt back into solution and the second coat flushes this out with relatively clean wax.
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Old 12-06-22, 10:10 AM
  #537  
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I give my chains a real solvent cleaning about every 600 miles, after three relubings (every 150 miles), with my home brew wax drip lube. I rotate to a different chain at that time. No new-chain skip for me.
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Old 12-06-22, 08:20 PM
  #538  
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Originally Posted by spelger
can't say i agree with this. look at all the crap in the photo of post https://www.bikeforums.net/22648733-post452.html
metal flakes, brackish mineral spirits. its coming from somewhere.
I have posted a photo of metal shavings stuck to a magnet a few weeks ago, so the good news is that these inevitable metal shavings come out and into the wax pot just by agitating it in the chain in hot wax and can then be fished out with a strong magnet so as not to have these flush around in the pot and back into the chain. No solvents needed to get that out. A bit of discolouration of solvents will also come from wax mixtures with friction modifiers, in MSW they are quite black. A pure paraffin wax solvent shake up would probably tell best. It's always hard to compare with a bunch of commercial and a ton of home brew waxes.

But I really do not see the need to ever shake up a hot wax chain in solvents apart from the initial prep unless it has been contaminated with oil, like an LBS greasing a wax chain, which happened to me recently. What a disgrace Otherwise the boiling water trick does well to get non-oily contamination out, like from a dirty wet ride.

It's also hot here in Australia 3/4 of the year, 34C today, I do not really see a difference in superficial chain contamination across the seasons. Definitely nowhere near the melting point to really get it soft.

Originally Posted by DaveSSS
I give my chains a real solvent cleaning about every 600 miles, after three relubings (every 150 miles), with my home brew wax drip lube. I rotate to a different chain at that time. No new-chain skip for me.
Sure but wax drip lube is very different from hot immersion waxing, so that qualifies your previous statement about 'covering up' wax, and it not being able to get in there. That's a drip wax problem, not a hot wax problem. Back when I used drip wax I also had to do proper deep cleans every so often, now I don't. I don't miss the deep cleans, I dislike handling solvents.

Last edited by yaw; 12-06-22 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 12-07-22, 08:03 AM
  #539  
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The standard kitchen detergent and hot water works just fine cleaning chains lubricated with a drip on wax if you don't like more potent degreasers.
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Old 12-07-22, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by yaw

Sure but wax drip lube is very different from hot immersion waxing, so that qualifies your previous statement about 'covering up' wax, and it not being able to get in there. That's a drip wax problem, not a hot wax problem. Back when I used drip wax I also had to do proper deep cleans every so often, now I don't. I don't miss the deep cleans, I dislike handling solvents.
My drip wax is not like any product sold to the public. It has a water-like viscosity so it penetrates deeply. After the carrier solvent evaporates, only the wax and the lubricating oil that's in it remain. It does not attract dirt. The lube isn't as brittle as pure paraffin, so it doesn't just fall off the chain like paraffin. When paraffin falls off the chain, it's left open for grit to get into the wear points, which are the hole in the roller and the bushings formed into the inner plates. Just because you can't see the hidden dirt doesn't mean it isn't there. Elongation is wear between the bushings and the pins. Wear inside the roller does not contribute to elongation, but it can be many times greater than the elongation wear, based on my measurements.

For those who aren't aware, you can buy specialized paraffins that are softer than ordinary canning wax. When I add high quality lubricating oil to canning wax, it softens it and improves lubricity. If I was a hot dip user, I wouldn't use just ordinary canning wax. I also wouldn't buy a ridiculously high priced wax product with a few inexpensive additives.
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Old 12-07-22, 09:22 AM
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The metal flakes seen in the solvent from new chain are a concern to me, which is why I ride a new chain with the factory junk on it for around 100 miles. Then, it goes into solvent and then a second dip into clean solvent. The second dip shows no signs of color or any particles.

Then, the chain goes right into the crockpot of wax. I keep it in there while doing other maintenance, could be 20-60 minutes. When it comes out, I let it drip and I wipe the excess off with a rag. After 200 and then 400 miles, I use liquid Silca magic liquid drip wax. At 600 miles or thereabouts, the chain goes right into the crockpot. No intermediate cleaning. I am comfortable with that approach even with a new SRAM chainring that costs $881 before tax and a cassette that is $430 before tax. Oil or conventional lubes would be very expensive.
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Old 12-07-22, 10:48 AM
  #542  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
The metal flakes seen in the solvent from new chain are a concern to me, which is why I ride a new chain with the factory junk on it for around 100 miles.
This is what I have done too, although some waxing instructions say this step is not necessary. This step does necessitate cleaning the remainder of the drivetrain prior to installing a waxed chain.
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Old 12-07-22, 10:20 PM
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Those flakes will keep coming. I used the magnet again the other day and got a small but noticeable amount of shavings out of the pot. Personally, I would just strip the chain right away, precisely because I don't want to clean the factory grease off the drivetrain as smelly remarked.

I bought a neodymium magnet with holes and threaded a shoelace through, so I can drag it through the hot wax every couple of months, then just wipe it clean and store it again. I ride up to a couple hundred km a week, my partner much less, and currently rotate 3-4 chains through the pot and found no need to do it any more often than that.

Even so it's a highly optional step, but since I moved away from having a spacer/tray at the bottom of the pot and like to swish the chains around a lot for a good flush and to get the additives in suspension, it's good not to have any of that stuff get back into the chain.
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Old 12-08-22, 09:17 AM
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Check out my new experiment of a poor-mans version of taking off the chain and agitating it in hot wax. Yes that is Silca SS in the chain cleaner. Spin for a few seconds, let sit for a few minutes for old lube in the cracks to go into solution, spin again to get out the gunk and get chain well-lubed. Silca sells a 16oz jar with 12oz of SS in it to do something like this off the bike so it is a variation on that idea which avoids the need for chain removal.


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Old 12-08-22, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by scottfsmith
Check out my new experiment of a poor-mans version of taking off the chain and agitating it in hot wax. Yes that is Silca SS in the chain cleaner.
Are you sure this is the "poor man's" version? Silca SS is $44 for 16 ounces; how many applications using your method?

Whereas a crockpot is about $12: Crock-Pot 2 Quart Round Manual Slow Cooker, Black - Walmart.com, and for about $16, you can buy this chain tool: Amazon.com : Super B 2-in-1 Master Link Pliers (The Trident) : Sports & Outdoors.
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Old 12-08-22, 10:05 AM
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I didn't mean money, I meant lower quality .. "poor mans" can mean either. That said, compared to a quality hot wax such as Silca secret chain blend it might be about the same price.. I hope 8oz of lube to last roughly as long as a bag of hot wax. But we will see, it is an experiment. I have about 4oz of lube in the machine now, and will keep topping off. I put the chain cleaner in a bag to keep it from evaporating.

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Old 12-08-22, 10:07 AM
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nothing is cheaper than paraffin, as far as cost per application goes.
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Old 12-08-22, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by scottfsmith
Silca sells a 16oz jar with 12oz of SS in it ...
Hmmmm.
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Old 12-08-22, 11:25 AM
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The extra 4oz gives room to put a chain in the jar. It is labeled as 12oz on the jar.

It looks like they discontinued that size recently, too bad as it was cheapest per ounce.
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Old 12-08-22, 11:58 AM
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I was just thinking about "immersive waxing" (and my total reluctance to step into a hot tube of wax to remove my body hair) when I realized we could do this easily with our bikes. Yes, requires a bigger pot. Dip entire bike into a gentle solvent that will remove the grease but not hurt paint. (Yes, a little research required.) Then dip bike into the wax. Let come to temp, remove, cool, buff out the paint and parts to a nice shine and ride. Closest think mankind has seen to the Immaculate Conception in the past two millennia.
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