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Titanium - lugs and tubes?

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Titanium - lugs and tubes?

Old 11-19-21, 08:39 AM
  #26  
Doug Fattic 
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Originally Posted by sdodd View Post
Just as a side note I talked with UBI a few weeks ago. I took a steel brazing class last year and was wanting to do the TIG Ti class next. For a variety of reasons they are stopping their frame building classes and focusing on the repair/certification classes. The last frame class will be a TIG Ti class right after Thanksgiving 2021. I'm on the wait list along with what was described as 'many others'.

I loved my UBI frame class! I'm disappointed they are stopping. However, I completely get it. Mask/distancing/density rules in Oregon since the beginning of 2020 have really hurt them, cutting class sizes in half. And when you own your own business, you make decisions every day balancing profit vs. the work and junk you have to deal with.
I'm not surprised that UBI is ending its framebuilding classes. There isn't nearly as much interest now as there was (although I got a lot more inquiries after Covid) and the latest bicycle technology is unfriendly to building steel frames. The number of people that already have or can afford the equipment to make a frame successfully with through axles and disc mounts is small. I'm sure they did the math and figured out they can more easily fill their mechanics classes (where many shop mechanics need to learn how to work on the latest stuff). And in reality a framebuilding class from UBI is just a good introduction to how to build a frame. Ron (the owner) is a superb teacher and is very organized but with that many students in a short 2 week class, it can only be considered a start on the journey to know how to successfully build a frame in their own shop. I've gotten a lot of their students and know where their knowledge stopped and what they needed more to learn to be able to do a really good job.
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Old 11-20-21, 03:19 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic View Post
The number of people that already have or can afford the equipment to make a frame successfully with through axles and disc mounts is small.
I'm pleased to say that I have figured out how to do both these things with only basic equipment You can buy rear dropouts with caliper mounts already on them, which is easy (easier than canti bosses actually). But I have also made a disk fork. I built the wheel up, put the caliper where it needed to be, and tacked it there.

Thru-axles are definitely a challenge but my last 5 frames (which weren't thru-axle) didn't need any dropout filing. I fixture the rear end just with bits of metal clamped to the table and check it with a laser level. I put the CS on before the front triangle to make this easier to work with.

Once you have CS and ST that defines the centre-plane, and it's then easy to fixture the HT to be in that plane. Otherwise, if you do the HT first, you have to fixture the CS to put the rear axle where it needs to be. This is harder (for me) because you've got to juggle two CS at once and support the whole rest of the frame.
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Old 11-20-21, 07:13 AM
  #28  
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It's not that expensive to switch to disc, except everything involved is ever-changing. Through sad experience, I know that if I buy a dummy axle the standard will change before I use it.
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Old 11-20-21, 09:27 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
Through sad experience, I know that if I buy a dummy axle the standard will change before I use it.
In other words, "the standard" is not standard!
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Old 11-20-21, 09:34 AM
  #30  
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This frame is sort of like Ti w/lugs. Me likes, but way beyond my skills to build...

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Old 11-20-21, 10:36 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Nessism View Post
In other words, "the standard" is not standard!
The wonderful thing about standards is everyone can have their own.

Some of them are a bit annoying. Like road boost forks and road front through axle which saves all of 5 grams over 15mm TA. But it's not hard to end up with $1000 worth of dummy axles.
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Old 11-20-21, 01:16 PM
  #32  
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Cecil Behringer did hold the patent for vacuum brazing Ti. I have the left over Ti parts that Pino made for those lugged Ti frames and forks. Him passing it on is unknown to me and I am 4th down the line from him being a student of Tim Paterek and Terry Osell who was the closest to Cecil and spent the most time with him.
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Old 11-20-21, 02:15 PM
  #33  
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Raleigh made a few bonded Titanium/Aluminum frames, I think.

Raleigh SP1000 technium.
Raleigh Ti Dyna-Tech.

I believe with aluminum lugs bonded to titanium tubes.

However, Carbon Fiber became very dominant in the market.

Some brands during that era also used various tubes with steel lugs. Or, of course, bonded with aluminum lugs.

I believe some brands also did crimped without any adhesive.

I think there was an aluminum lugged frame that was only press fit without adhesive. Perhaps Peugeot?

Last edited by CliffordK; 11-20-21 at 02:23 PM.
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Old 11-20-21, 04:20 PM
  #34  
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Bruce Gordon Cycles - The Unofficial Official Blog: Bruce Gordon goes Carbon Fiber!!
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Old 11-20-21, 06:07 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by pwyg View Post
I have the left over Ti parts that Pino made for those lugged Ti frames and forks.
Do you have any pictures of them anywhere?
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Old 11-20-21, 06:10 PM
  #36  
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Not that there is any rule against it, but if we expand out from what the OP was talking about into all the goofy glued bikes this thread could go on forever. And wouldn't be particularly interesting in my estimation.
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Old 11-20-21, 06:50 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by pwyg View Post
Cecil Behringer did hold the patent for vacuum brazing Ti. I have the left over Ti parts that Pino made for those lugged Ti frames and forks. Him passing it on is unknown to me and I am 4th down the line from him being a student of Tim Paterek and Terry Osell who was the closest to Cecil and spent the most time with him.
Those parts would be fun to see.
I spoke to Pino at the 1974 Nationals in Northbrook Illinois.
He had a (the?) lugged and brazed track bike, it was a Pino concept tour de force.
The double fastened spokes I was unsure of the benefit of, I thought the threaded hubs to accept the spokes was a good idea, adopted much later by Mavic with the Crosslink mtb wheels.
His assertion that the titanium tubing was bored from a solid rod I raised my eyebrows about.
The bike was credible and filled with ideas.
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Old 11-20-21, 08:04 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by unterhausen View Post
Do you have any pictures of them anywhere?
on my site gallery page wyganowski frames
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Old 11-24-21, 04:42 PM
  #39  
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What a fascinating thread! I had no idea that Doug Fattic had flirted with the idea of titanium brazing!

I've got a pretty detailed writeup about Pino and Cecil's wacky bikes on my (very much unfinished) website, in the 1970s section. One of the things that Cecil worked on was a chemical agent for preventing the uncontrolled flow of the filler slurry used when oven brazing a ti frame, which makes it seem like braze diffusion is a real problem. They baked their frames in industrial quartz-argon ovens... But I've always wondered if a similar process could be done by hand with today's shielding equipment.

https://early-titanium-archive.neocities.org/70s.html

I also interviewed Mike Augspurger about his "lugged" (more like sleeved) welded ti frames. The lugged/welded option is another route you could check out, if you're dead set against adhesive bonding a frame.

Last edited by 3dvvitch; 11-24-21 at 05:18 PM.
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Old 11-25-21, 12:41 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by 3dvvitch View Post
What a fascinating thread! I had no idea that Doug Fattic had flirted with the idea of titanium brazing!

I've got a pretty detailed writeup about Pino and Cecil's wacky bikes on my (very much unfinished) website, in the 1970s section. One of the things that Cecil worked on was a chemical agent for preventing the uncontrolled flow of the filler slurry used when oven brazing a ti frame, which makes it seem like braze diffusion is a real problem. They baked their frames in industrial quartz-argon ovens... But I've always wondered if a similar process could be done by hand with today's shielding equipment.

https://early-titanium-archive.neocities.org/70s.html

I also interviewed Mike Augspurger about his "lugged" (more like sleeved) welded ti frames. The lugged/welded option is another route you could check out, if you're dead set against adhesive bonding a frame.
Ann, 1st of all I was very impressed with your website about the history of titanium bicycle frames. I thought it was very well done and it can continue to be a great contribution to our knowledge of how tiframes got started and grew in the modern age. 2nd I notice in your personal profile that you said you want to someday learn how to build frames. Perhaps you might eventually be inspired to learn in my shop!

I've dreamed for years that someone would do a good job documenting the rise of modern American builders that came out of the bike boom around 1970. Brian Baylis and I used to have this conversation when we would get together at shows. Of course we can't have this conversation any more because he passed in 2016. Cecil Behringer is one of the few frame builders that had a link to American builders before WWII. I'm sure some of us would like to ask him questions if we could. Perhaps Ann you can get inspired to include American steel builders in your website too?

I have a story about a young man that built his own titanium frame in Crimea (that used to be part of Ukraine but got stolen by Russia). As part of our charity bicycle project in Ukraine, we did a week long bike ride every year staying and being feed in churches. In one of these cities a young guy through a translator told me he had made for himself a titanium frame. Because the translator wasn't familiar with technical terms, I thought he was saying that he had bought a ti frame and assembled into a complete bicycle. I asked if he could bring it to show me. To my surprise he had really welded a titanium frame. It was a bit crude but not bad. In the USSR era, Crimea was where the Soviets made and launched Submarines into the Black Sea. Making those subs included titanium technology. I went though where the old sub factory was located carved out of the cliffs that drop straight down into the sea. This strategic military peninsula is why Putin wanted it and why he is trying to take the eastern part of Ukraine as well so Russia can have a land bridge to Crimea. When the conflict started in 2014, a lot of refugees from east Ukraine came to get food and clothing on the college campus where our bike.frame shop is located. It was extremely sobering to see them in person and hear their stories of destruction of their homes and businesses because of Putin's aggression. Ukraine is a really poor country and doesn't stand a chance unless they continue to get outside help.
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Old 11-25-21, 02:36 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by 3dvvitch View Post
What a fascinating thread! I had no idea that Doug Fattic had flirted with the idea of titanium brazing!

I've got a pretty detailed writeup about Pino and Cecil's wacky bikes on my (very much unfinished) website, in the 1970s section. One of the things that Cecil worked on was a chemical agent for preventing the uncontrolled flow of the filler slurry used when oven brazing a ti frame, which makes it seem like braze diffusion is a real problem. They baked their frames in industrial quartz-argon ovens... But I've always wondered if a similar process could be done by hand with today's shielding equipment.

https://early-titanium-archive.neocities.org/70s.html

I also interviewed Mike Augspurger about his "lugged" (more like sleeved) welded ti frames. The lugged/welded option is another route you could check out, if you're dead set against adhesive bonding a frame.
That's a really interesting page! Especially all those gussets on the Flema-- which seem like the wrong way to go compared to oversizing the tubing.
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Old 11-26-21, 09:32 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic View Post
Ann, 1st of all I was very impressed with your website about the history of titanium bicycle frames. I thought it was very well done and it can continue to be a great contribution to our knowledge of how tiframes got started and grew in the modern age. 2nd I notice in your personal profile that you said you want to someday learn how to build frames. Perhaps you might eventually be inspired to learn in my shop!
.
Wow, thank you, you're too kind! I'll send you a DM about framebuilding stuff.
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