jccaclimber

I’d be surprised if the threads on the frame side were corroded given the material. As such destructive removal should leave a clean shell and not take more than an hour, maybe two if you’re going slowly. Cut a slot, peel it out, chase threads if needed, and go on with your day.

Ti has a similar if slightly lower CTE than most steels (slightly higher delta to some stainless alloys), so heat will only make it more stuck. Cold might work, but only at large deltas, and I’m not sure how well at that.

I am slightly worried about what more aggressive torque options would do if the steel decides to do something ugly on the way out.

Find a way to get it to SF and back and I’ll remove it just for the story, but I’m guessing the frame isn’t worth that.

KCT1986

Here's a pic of the BB-6500/5500 in both lengths. These are 68mm width. On the 68mm, the 118.5 adds 3mm to the NDS and 6mm to the DS. Don't know of the 70mm is similar.

Can't tell for sure about the OP's one since the right side is not clearly visible but it seems to be the shorter double crankset version.

himespau 

I get what you're saying about too much torque tearing up threads, but given that the d's cup is integral to the cartridge, cutting a slit would have to go the entire Ingrid of the shell, right? Sounds challenging.

CliffordK

If the NDS side came loose, it should be easy enough to verify if it is Italian threaded (both sides right threaded). Just try it in any other frame with English (or known Italian) threading.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cribshe...mbrackets.html

Italian should also be 70mm wide (2mm wider than English at 68mm).

If all else fails, just try turning your wrench the other way.

===============================================

As far as Octalink V1 or V2, that is V1 (so compatible with all Ultegra and Dura Ace Octalink).

himespau 

The NDS is right threaded for all types, so I'm not sure what trying to screw it into another shell would prove unless you're saying the diameter is too big to fit into an English shell. It's built by Litespeed to specs of Eddy Merckx and apparently Eddy Merckx wanted it Italian (maybe to keep it consistent with the rest of his line?) according to the catalog and Bicycle Blue Book (which probably got the info from the catalog, so that's probably meaningless). My digital calipers said 69.8 when I went to verify it one last time before taking it to the shop, which is a lot closer to 70 than 68.

Just checked and NDS cup (which I have, unlike rest of frame, which is at the shop) is too big to fit in the shells of either the 1988 Schwinn Voyageur or 1993 Specialized Sequoia (both almost assuredly English threaded BB shells) waiting in the basement for me to build them up, and the engraving on the cup says 36 x 24T 70 on it, so yes, Italian threaded.

Thanks for the confirmation on Octalink. I was pretty sure it was a better match to the pictures on Sheldon Brown's site (since I don't have it, I couldn't measure the spines) and had figured that it was likely V1 as V2 was Tiagra and below and I didn't expect someone to pull off the 9 speed record from a bike that cost ~$5k new in 1997 to put low end shimano on it (though I had been planning on putting 10 speed Centaur on it, so maybe I shouldn't talk).

CliffordK

Ok, so if the bottom bracket cup is (quite a bit) bigger than English, then it confirms that it is Italian.

So, it should have standard right-hand threads, and should unscrew counter-clockwise (same direction the NDS side did).

Unlike "French", I don't believe there are any left hand threaded Italian bottom brackets.

V2 was used on most MTB cranks, as well as the Sora road crank. I'm not sure about Tiagra. The splines are much longer, so they are easily recognizable.

jccaclimber

They all come apart somehow. Some press together, others require something like the obscure Park BBT-6. They all however come apart. Worst case there's always the option of clamping one end of the spindle in a vise and plunging a 1/2" carbide end mill in the other, but I've never had to resort to that. Once the spindle and bearings are out you just need to cut the shell. A bb, even steel, is easier than a seat post because you can hold the blade on both ends. Just thread a good hack saw blade (Bahco makes nice ones, but plenty of options) through the hole, hook it to both ends, and start cutting. Once you just start to cut through the minor diameter of the BB, stop and do that in a second nearby location. At that point the metal is so thin you can peel/drive a slice inward, and then spin or peel the rest out. Some care is needed to not go to deep in some areas, but it isn't all that tricky. Even if you do start to cut through the threads in two locations, so long as you clean everything up and don't cut the main shell it won't impact much. People complain about how hard cutting metal by hand is, but as long as you don't saw 3 strokes then walk around in despair for 5 minutes it doesn't actually take long. Even better with a decent blade.

Confirmed at this point, but I'm pretty sure this is what he was getting at. It's what I was trying to point to when I mentioned measuring diameter, but it's easier to just check against a known frame if you have one open.

If it were left hand thread on the fixed side and the diameter and pitch of French then it would be Swiss, not French, but I think I see your point.

JohnDThompson 

That's exactly what it means: Italian bottom bracket threads are 36mm diameter; English bottom bracket threads are 34.8mm diameter. An Italian thread cup won't even begin to fit into an English thread shell, and an English thread cup will fall into an Italian thread shell without even engaging any threads.

masi61

I would have liked to see photos of the tool you (or the bike shop) are using while engaged with the drive side splines. Are the splines stripping out at all?

Also, if your Italian threaded Octalink BB is the Dura Ace variant for double (109mm width), these are not sealed in the same way as the 6500/6503/5500/5503 (Ultegra or 105) versions. It could perhaps be disassembled a bit more while in the bottom bracket shell. I’m thinking that your Octalink bb is not a Dura Ace based on the one photo you provided since the axle doesn’t look quite as shiny chrome as I have seen on the Dura Ace ones. This is just a guess though and on my Ultegra 6503 triple bike I use the Dura Ace 7703 bottom bracket and the axle has corrosion on it.

Back to my question about the spline tool and the condition of the drive side splines - I’m curious: can you try (or have they tried) an impact wrench? The quick impact could be sufficient (on an air impact, not sure out cordless) to break it loose so long as you are able to keep steady pressure on the Shimano Octalink spline tool.

himespau 

I'm not sure if they have an impact wrench. I don't have one. Once I used the Pedro's Bottom Bracket Socket Holder:

to lock the Park BB tool (not sure the number) onto the BB, I didn't have any slipping and it did not appear to be stripping at all.

Sorry, I dropped the frame off at the shop a month ago (told them it wasn't a huge rush), so I don't have access to the frame at the moment and only have the crappy pictures the previous owner took for their eBay posting.

himespau 

I have to say, I'm impressed with Litespeed's customer service guy. He wrote me yesterday afternoon saying that we'd tried all of his ideas and asked a couple questions. He wrote again this morning saying he was going to talk to some of the more experienced guys (I think he actually said some of the older engineers) to see if they have any advice. Since their name isn't on the downtube, I honestly didn't expect a response from them.

ign1te

A frame with a frozen BB is unacceptable IMO. By not removing it now, you are simply delaying the inevitable. If your BB have the same structure as the BB-un55, it is made in such a way you will not be able to tap the axle out. Check out the BB-un55 structure in this thread

https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...o-bb-un55.html

. These BB:s rely on grease to operate. Given the fact that heat has already been applied to the shell, the grease inside it may already be damaged. This will reduce the lifetime of the component.

My recommendation is to aggressively use heat, dont be gentle about it. Absolutely nuke it. Cool the component down with water before applying the tool, otherwise the teeth might distort. Consumer burners produce plenty of heat for this application:

https://www.hornbach.se/shop/Lodlamp...-detaljer.html

. Two burners at the same time is better than 1.

By following the BB-un55 instructions, you could disassemble the BB inside the frame. The end result would be that you can remove the axle, while the shell would still be inside the frame. I am not sure that helps your situation though.

himespau 

The grease being melted out is something I worry about as I go through looking for crank sets that would work with the BB and still allow me my preferred gearing.

himespau 

Is there a way to tell if the grease has been melted out or if it's still usable without disassembling the BB?

ign1te

No. But that BB is not anything special. Monolithic shimano octalink BBs can be bought from major online stores.

himespau 

Right, but the whole point of the therad is that I can't get the BB out by conventional means. If I could get it out, I wouldn't replace it with another of the same. I have a number of other BBs for other cranksets that I actually have that would give me the gearing I want. I don't have any octalink cranksets.

What I want to know is whether I can use it as is (not ldeal, but, if I try to destructively get it out and fail, the entire frame is toast), or if I have to destructively remove it because the grease is now gone and it'll no longer work as is. Since these BBs seem to last a long time, I could theoretically ride it with an octalink crankset for quite a while if I chose to just leave it in.

My mechanic keeps bringing up that he can cut it out, but then he tries other, non-destructive means instead, which makes me think he's not confident that he can cut it out. Or maybe he's concerned whether I'm willing to pay him for the time it'll take to do so.

If it's a 109 mm spindle, to get the same amount of gearing range in steps I'd like, I'd have to spend ~$4-500 on parts I don't have to convert it to 11 speed.

If I can get it out, I already have all the parts (including 3 cleaned, waxed 10 speed chains that I got ready just for this build because I wanted to try waxed chains) to get it set up as a 10 speed triple.

himespau 

Here's kind of the way I was looking at it. I got hit by a car and my bike wrecked. I was willing to spend up to about $1k to replace the frame if I could find something I really liked and could re-use the non-wrecked parts from my current bike and parts in my bin to build it up.

I really liked this frameset and it would meet those requirements and I think I got it for ~$575 shipped with taxes and stuff. That means that, if I could get it workable for $400 or less, I'm good with it. Otherwise, if I can sell it to someone else, even at a loss, I'll take that as my stupid tax for not checking it, and use what's left to try again.

CliffordK

I would have no problem trying to use a 9-speed crankset with a 10-speed setup.

I keep meaning to try to get good measurements of the spider thicknesses of different cranks.

I like the look of the Pedro's tool above. Apparently now updated to fit more cranks. I've improvised with bolts, but that looks very slick.

As above, make sure you're turning counter-clockwise to remove.

I think somebody suggested using Lye, but I don't see the comment. Anyway, it is supposed to help loosen seatposts... it might be worth trying.

3alarmer 

.
...the shell that is stuck in there is steel, Cliff. It's not aluminum.

3alarmer 

...I've never taken one of these cartridges apart, but my impression of other sealed bearing cartridges is that the bearings are sealed relatively well. So my guess is,, even if it got heated enough to liquify the grease inside them, they managed to retain enough of it that you are OK on that front. The only way to tell what's going on for certain, is, of course, a visual inspection. But that requires deconstruction.

I've never deconstructed an Octalink cartridge. But if it still spins OK, that's a good sign.


They look like this, I think.

Obviously, with enough heat, you can melt the seals, but I'm not sure where the grease would go if that happened. If the thing didn't smoke when he was heating the shell, you're probably OK on that front. I've used heat on a lot of different stuck BB components, and when you melt the grease, it smokes.

KCT1986

The Octalink V1 compatible cranks that are available are somewhat limited.

Shimano road 9 speed, 770x, 650x & 550x series.
Shimano MTB M95x series, these have either the integrated chainring/spider or spiders for 4 or 5 arm bolt patterns. 110/64mm BCD 5 arm was an option IIRC. Stock BB for these were 112.5 or 116mm, so possibly would work on a 109.5mm.
Cannondale/Coda in the 2000 timeframe, never been able to find out much about them. Don;t know if they used the 109 or 118 BB. Also don't know about clearance for rings or arm/stay. Believe that some may have also use Octalink V2 but know that some were V1.
Ritchey had some V1 also. Unfortunately, also limited info found about these.

Another possibility, maybe, is to determine if a Shimano road triple would fit on your frame with the 109mm BB. The 109 is just aprox. 6mm shorter that the stock 118 triple version on the drive side. A little lower chainline but....

Attached is a pic of a Ultegra FC-6503 triple on a 109.5mm BB-5500. The smallest (30T) ring appears to be about in-line with the edge of the BB shell.



Hope that you can get the BB out but some possible option if all else fails.

himespau 

Yeah, I just need to stop by the shop tomorrow and talk to them and see what's up.
If the BB is still good and has a 118 spindle, I can find a 6500 triple no problem. Not perfect for an all Campy build, but it'd be fine and looks would be close enough.
If it's still good and is 109, I might have a line on a very rare octalink V1 compact double (assuming no one gets it first). That's what would require going to 11 speed to get the range and spacing of my current triple. Since that's 110 BCD, I can find 11 speed chainrings to fit that (though 5 bolt are getting rarer).
If the BB has to come out, I can either make it clear that I'm willing to pay him to do it if he'll do it soon (it's been at the shop for over a month) or I can try following the instructions posted above to disassemble it in the frame and then get out my hacksaw.
I'm least confident in the doing-it-myself option (and will probably have lots of questions for those who suggested I do that), but I would be happiest with it out. As posted above, leaving it stuck in there is sort of kicking the can down the road.

himespau 

Lye only works on aluminum/steel galling, not steel Ti? Good to know.

3alarmer 

...in theory, the reason it works on seat post removal is that it dissolves the aluminum post, and does not affect the steel frame tubing.
Someone is probably more expert in the chemistry of how it works than am I, I just know it makes a huge mess.

CliffordK

Ahhh... yes. So the NDS is likely aluminum (or plastic), and the DS is steel/chrome.

So one can use more force, but can't use an aluminum solution.