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Old 09-26-19, 04:17 PM
  #5626  
Clythio
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing
Several questions, all pertaining to 500m TT:

1. The Analytic Cycling site - is it really far off in predicting performance or even performance changes. Changing weight by 10 kg seems to have a minor effect but changing peak power duration just by a second has a massive effect.

2. For Nationals (USA) I assume that the UCI jig is used to measure the bike. Related to that if I have a custom built frame (it'd be a Tsunami or similar welded aluminum), would it be legal to race? It's definitely not on the UCI list. If not then I'd need to source a custom frame from a build that is UCI approved?

3. Related to that - are 24" wheels legal, if used as a pair? I see that 550mm is the minimum tire height and 24" tubular/road wheels are about 560?mm. However I don't see any pictures or mentions of any competitor using a 24" wheel. Nor 650c for that matter. (Related to that it seems there are no 24" rear wheels out there, and very few 650c rear wheels).

4. Related to that, would there be a measurable benefit to using a 24" or even 650c wheel for the 500m? I figure it would accelerate a bit quicker, and it seems like the most important thing is to get up to speed quickly - it takes a long time to accelerate, so reducing that time would be beneficial. I figured if there was an advantage then someone would be selling them but I don't see any out there.

5. Another wheel related question - is a front disc (700c) a hinderance in the 500m? For indoors I imagine it's okay, but even a 24" disc (I had one a long time ago) is pretty wiggly in any kind of wind.

6. 'm having a hard time seeing if there's an advantage to either sprint bars or aero bars for the 500m. I'm not a super powerful rider compared to some others so I assume that the aero bars would help maintain speed, but I've watched a gazillion 500m clips and it seems to go either way. I know personally that I saw a big pick up in speed with aero bars but that was in a normal time trial, not a 35-40 second effort.

7. For saddles I'm using an ISM now, so I'd either be right on the BB line (sprint bars) or 5 cm back (aero bars). I think those are the rules, unless I'm missing something.

8. Final related to that, if I was using 700c wheels and aero bars I'd have to raise the base bar quite high to clear the front tire, but for a 650c or 24" wheel I could leave the base bar height at the same height as my drops. For sprint bars it seems that they can be below the top of the tire by a decent amount so I'm okay. Running a 650c or 24" wheel would eliminate that measurement concern.
1 - AC model works well if peakpower time is corrected, they use sec 4 I think, and reality is maybe 7 or 8 after the time start. Model is maybe 0,5sec faster because its model is for pros position/equipment. 1kg + gives 0,1sec worst time. I'm afraid the model is for a 333 track, it also affects results. How is you measuring the power data you're using at the model?
2 - Believe that anything with 2 triangles, 3:1 rule ok, etc., would be allowed to start.
3 - If faster, someone were using it, those 24" wheels.
4 -
5 - Really fast guys use front discs - but only indoor, of course.
6 - Same with me - I'm 61 and race 500m TT. Checked first lap top/ave power with both configs, and as I don't loose anything with clips, decided to keep it in order to go faster on the final 300m. From pro women videos, you can see bigger riders go on clips, smaller on handlebars, and smoother riders go on clip, the more "explosives" prefer handlebars, each one looking for best suitable setup. Or, finally, "it depends"...
7 - Bontrager Hilo RXL for me. I'm large, heavy, need good support, and a like a front long flat nose with little ramp on the rear part of this seat.
8 - Tested a lot, and for the standing start, better high for side handles is not too low..
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Old 09-26-19, 07:55 PM
  #5627  
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Thanks for all the responses. I'm at work 12 hours tomorrow so will not be able to respond further for a bit, just got back home now.

I'm a shorter rider with a long torso (road bike is 40 cm ST, 56.5 cm TT). I don't think I qualify for any morphological exceptions except possibly my quads are so short that it might do something (I vaguely recall something about that, but I will look at it later). My torso is long enough that I'll be pretty stretched out if I use aero bars.

Originally Posted by Morelock
1.) weight should have very, very little impact (almost nil) on a flat track. Peak power for another second however... likely means you are accelerating (standing start is where you'll hit peak power) considerably faster, which will have an impact.
2.) The last few years they have been pretty lax with the jig. That said... you should at the bare minimum contact them and get the head comm's opinion. Quite a few bikes without a uci sticker get used... but it can change on the whim of an official.
3.) To my knowledge, so long as front/back are the same size, you're good
4.) *rough guideline* it comes out a wash. People thought similarly in regards to aerodynamics... smaller leading edge *should* be more aero (vs a 700c wheel) but to compensate you have a longer head tube, again basically a wash.
5.) ride discs when you can. Indoors in a TT, that's always.
6.) when aerobars are legal, you should use them (assuming you have an optimized position, etc etc)
7.) you get to choose one exemption, no questions asked (they don't measure you on the bike, just the bike) - with aerobars it's either a.) at least -5cm saddle to bb and up to 80cm reach, or b.)at most 0cm saddle to bb and up to 75cm reach. There is an extra 5cm reach available to people over 6ft (I can't remember exactly how tall you have to be, again, check out the uci technical guide)
8.) run what you have... again assuming it checks out ok.
My thought on the smaller wheels was more geared toward acceleration, i.e. they should be much easier to accelerate up to speed. They'd require more work to keep going, and they'll have higher rolling resistance.

My concerns include spares (no one has any), and investing in a custom frame that may or may not have available wheels or even gearing. I'd have to run crazy big gears to make a 24" wheel work.

Originally Posted by tobukog
2) Bikes no longer have to be UCI compliant at Masters Nationals. Of course, this may change.

4) 24" wheels will also usually have better aerodynamics because of lower rotational drag. However this is probably offset by the higher rolling resistance of smaller wheels. Rotational drag is hard to test, and I can't think of anyone who has current rolling resistance data of 24" tires.

Another issue is that it's really challenging to find good fast tires at 24" since it's such a rare rim size.
I didn't know Masters didn't have to follow UCI guidelines. It doesn't mean I'm going to go hogwild, it just means that maybe a non-UCI frame would work (guy that built my frames is not UCI certified).

Originally Posted by Clythio
1 - AC model works well if peakpower time is corrected, they use sec 4 I think, and reality is maybe 7 or 8 after the time start. Model is maybe 0,5sec faster because its model is for pros position/equipment. 1kg + gives 0,1sec worst time. I'm afraid the model is for a 333 track, it also affects results. How is you measuring the power data you're using at the model?
2 - Believe that anything with 2 triangles, 3:1 rule ok, etc., would be allowed to start.
3 - If faster, someone were using it, those 24" wheels.
4 -
5 - Really fast guys use front discs - but only indoor, of course.
6 - Same with me - I'm 61 and race 500m TT. Checked first lap top/ave power with both configs, and as I don't loose anything with clips, decided to keep it in order to go faster on the final 300m. From pro women videos, you can see bigger riders go on clips, smaller on handlebars, and smoother riders go on clip, the more "explosives" prefer handlebars, each one looking for best suitable setup. Or, finally, "it depends"...
7 - Bontrager Hilo RXL for me. I'm large, heavy, need good support, and a like a front long flat nose with little ramp on the rear part of this seat.
8 - Tested a lot, and for the standing start, better high for side handles is not too low..
I'm not sure what you mean by "sec 4" vs "7 or 8". Could you explain?

I'll add 0.5 sec, or make my aero drag significant, to give me a more realistic prediction.

I'm using an SRM (Cannondale SI model, not sure how precise it is, wireless) to measure power. I was using my best recent 35 second power number as an average, and my best recent 2 second number for 2 seconds (both numbers hit in one effort). I'm not that fast so the AC number didn't make sense to me.

I don't understand the second bit. Are you saying that it's better that the base bar handles not be too low? I was thinking it would be good to match my drop position (BB->Drops relationship) as that's what seems to determine stability under acceleration. I experimented with sprint position on the road and found that having the bars a certain relationship to the BB was the best. Higher up, further forward, or even further back, not as good. On the other hand I have never ever done max effort standing starts so there's that. Only standing starts I've done were for regular long time trials, 16-65 minutes long, so I started pretty gently relatively speaking.

Time for bed, thanks for giving me all these things to think about.
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Old 09-26-19, 11:40 PM
  #5628  
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Originally Posted by carpediemracing

I'm not sure what you mean by "sec 4" vs "7 or 8". Could you explain?

I'll add 0.5 sec, or make my aero drag significant, to give me a more realistic prediction.

I'm using an SRM (Cannondale SI model, not sure how precise it is, wireless) to measure power. I was using my best recent 35 second power number as an average, and my best recent 2 second number for 2 seconds (both numbers hit in one effort). I'm not that fast so the AC number didn't make sense to me.

I don't understand the second bit. Are you saying that it's better that the base bar handles not be too low? I was thinking it would be good to match my drop position (BB->Drops relationship) as that's what seems to determine stability under acceleration. I experimented with sprint position on the road and found that having the bars a certain relationship to the BB was the best. Higher up, further forward, or even further back, not as good. On the other hand I have never ever done max effort standing starts so there's that. Only standing starts I've done were for regular long time trials, 16-65 minutes long, so I started pretty gently relatively speaking.

Time for bed, thanks for giving me all these things to think about.
"Time in which power is maximum"... they use 3,7 as default - reality for me is 8 to 9 sec - play with that and check how it changes result.
I use "Time period" 38, if result is slightly lower like 37,6. etc. no that 50" default - this 50" brings time 2 sec down and wrong - I play it in an iterative way until both numbers converge - estimated time and "Time period".
Using my Mexico 2018 Pan numbers (I rode a decent 37,6 sec - WKO image below) I got very near results - 37,5 and 37,8, just playing with 8 and 9 for the peak power time.
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Old 09-26-19, 11:43 PM
  #5629  
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Old 09-27-19, 04:05 AM
  #5630  
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@carpediemracing

The only morphological exemption that still exists (again, in my above post, anyone can choose the one regarding saddle position/reach "for free") is that you gain an extra 5cm reach (for a total possible 85cm bb to extension tip) - but only if you are 190cm or taller. Otherwise, nothing special for body type.

Here is the updated UCI technical document. Be sure to check it out.
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Old 09-29-19, 07:00 PM
  #5631  
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Originally Posted by Clythio
This makes sense. My peak power is pretty peaky, I was using 2s for peak power time, not much longer, but I'll play around a bit. I think one factor is that pretty much every effort I make is from a rolling start, aka pretty fast, so my rpm is higher. I haven't made any 0 rpm starts. I imagine my initial power will be lower, and my peak may not be as peaky because it'll take me time to get into any kind of decent rpms. Thanks.
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Old 09-29-19, 07:12 PM
  #5632  
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Originally Posted by Morelock
@carpediemracing

The only morphological exemption that still exists (again, in my above post, anyone can choose the one regarding saddle position/reach "for free") is that you gain an extra 5cm reach (for a total possible 85cm bb to extension tip) - but only if you are 190cm or taller. Otherwise, nothing special for body type.

Here is the updated UCI technical document. Be sure to check it out.
I've been looking at this document because it seems to simply things, at least for me:
https://usac-officials.org/Download/U...nt%20Guide.pdf

It mentions saddle position exceptions that would apply primarily to shorter riders (aka me). I have very short quads, to the point that I have very little setback. I moved my saddle back a bit to attain 0 cm setback (well, 4mm to be precise). I think I got more of it back going to an ISM saddle, but where I need to put the saddle depends on me choosing aero or drop bars.

I realize I need to do some more experimenting on the bike and do some research off of it. Thanks for your help so far, it has clarified a lot of my thoughts.

The bike measurement "free exception" is something I had no idea existed until you mentioned it in your response.
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Old 09-29-19, 07:26 PM
  #5633  
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^that document is outdated. The one I linked to is the current ruleset.
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Old 09-30-19, 01:34 PM
  #5634  
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Originally Posted by carleton
True.

My guess is that their is either some marketing gamesmanship going on or production holdups.

Recall that we didn't see the GB bikes until the London Olympics. The Felt TA FRD was only introduced like 3 months before the Rio Olympics.

Wheels are much easier to copy than bikes. It is reasonable that Zipp may be keeping their designs close to the vest for as long as they can to avoid competitors having time enough to copy them. Keep in mind, they may be unveiling wheels for the other Olympic cycling events which may all be of this new generation.
I'm sure there is a new regulation somewhere that will mean that instead of seeing all the new equipment in Tokyo, it'll have to make an appearance in competition 6months prior. I can't find the exact rule on this, but I'm lead to believe, for the eagle eyed among you that this years world cup season may be a great hunting ground for new tech. So eyes peeled, and who knows the new Zipp wheels may turn up there
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Old 09-30-19, 07:07 PM
  #5635  
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Not quite sure where to put this, couldn't find a track wheels thread that seemed relevant:

I just came into an older Campy Ghibli disc, the one with the alloy rim, black sides with the white five-pointed star. It's a gorgeous wheel, but the axle is very short. I've only got maybe three threads engaged with the nuts on each side. Is this normal? Seems like the axle is sized for thin track ends like on an old school steel frameset. If I order a new axle will it be the same length?
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Old 10-01-19, 03:17 AM
  #5636  
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Originally Posted by jods
I'm sure there is a new regulation somewhere that will mean that instead of seeing all the new equipment in Tokyo, it'll have to make an appearance in competition 6months prior. I can't find the exact rule on this, but I'm lead to believe, for the eagle eyed among you that this years world cup season may be a great hunting ground for new tech. So eyes peeled, and who knows the new Zipp wheels may turn up there
Interesting. Thanks!
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Old 10-01-19, 03:23 AM
  #5637  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke
Not quite sure where to put this, couldn't find a track wheels thread that seemed relevant:

I just came into an older Campy Ghibli disc, the one with the alloy rim, black sides with the white five-pointed star. It's a gorgeous wheel, but the axle is very short. I've only got maybe three threads engaged with the nuts on each side. Is this normal? Seems like the axle is sized for thin track ends like on an old school steel frameset. If I order a new axle will it be the same length?
There are some generations of Zipp discs like that, too. Like you say, they are made with thin steel track ends in mind. I can't recall the model, but it was the first generation that was black with the modern white "Zipp" stickers on it.

Not sure what your options are. Maybe ask over in bike mechanics who may be more familiar with dealing with specs on parts. Or they might be able to point you to a catalog with specs.

https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/


...or you can simply use it exclusively on your NJS bike
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Old 10-01-19, 05:28 AM
  #5638  
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Originally Posted by jods
I'm sure there is a new regulation somewhere that will mean that instead of seeing all the new equipment in Tokyo, it'll have to make an appearance in competition 6months prior. I can't find the exact rule on this, but I'm lead to believe, for the eagle eyed among you that this years world cup season may be a great hunting ground for new tech. So eyes peeled, and who knows the new Zipp wheels may turn up there
I believe the rules are being interpreted that the constituent parts of the finished track bikes for the Olympics don't have to be getting run together to count.

Also, not everyone in a team needs to be on them for it to count either, I'm lead to think.

It'll take eagle eyes to spot who is running the new frames/bars/wheels etc.
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Old 10-01-19, 07:45 AM
  #5639  
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New frames and wheels would have to go through UCI approval.

They've posted lists of approved equipment, though I do not know how frequently it is posted. In the past, that list has indicated when frame updates are coming.
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Old 10-01-19, 07:47 AM
  #5640  
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Originally Posted by carleton
There are some generations of Zipp discs like that, too. Like you say, they are made with thin steel track ends in mind. I can't recall the model, but it was the first generation that was black with the modern white "Zipp" stickers on it.

Not sure what your options are. Maybe ask over in bike mechanics who may be more familiar with dealing with specs on parts. Or they might be able to point you to a catalog with specs.

https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/


...or you can simply use it exclusively on your NJS bike
Sadly I had to leave the Panasonic in the US. But actually I think I found a "long" option replacement axle from a Japanese supplier.
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Old 10-01-19, 08:29 AM
  #5641  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke
Not quite sure where to put this, couldn't find a track wheels thread that seemed relevant:

I just came into an older Campy Ghibli disc, the one with the alloy rim, black sides with the white five-pointed star. It's a gorgeous wheel, but the axle is very short. I've only got maybe three threads engaged with the nuts on each side. Is this normal? Seems like the axle is sized for thin track ends like on an old school steel frameset. If I order a new axle will it be the same length?
you can order a new axle - and it doesn't even need to be from campagnolo. as long as the threading is the same, you can get it as long as you want, cut it to length, clean up the threads, and thread your hardware and wheel on to it.
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Old 10-01-19, 01:25 PM
  #5642  
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Originally Posted by ruudlaff
I believe the rules are being interpreted that the constituent parts of the finished track bikes for the Olympics don't have to be getting run together to count.

Also, not everyone in a team needs to be on them for it to count either, I'm lead to think.

It'll take eagle eyes to spot who is running the new frames/bars/wheels etc.
Oh, that’s right!

I recall one of the new (at the time) LOOK L96 bikes was ridden by US Paralympian Jennifer Schuble before the London Olympics.

Basically, I think she received (and raced) her L96 before the London Olympics and Paralympics. I don’t think the bike’s existence was a secret. Baugé and others were seen on them. She had one of the first “commercially available” ones...in size EXTRA EXTRA small (seriously). No chance of that being raced against the French Olympians. Only Sandie Clair rides that size. Jenn kicked butt racing the French Paralympians, though!

Jen went from racing this:



To this:





Last edited by carleton; 10-01-19 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 10-01-19, 01:48 PM
  #5643  
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And for those wondering, @jods OBE is no stranger to a podium:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jody_Cundy

(Let me know if I'm embarrassing you.)
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Old 10-01-19, 02:21 PM
  #5644  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk
you can order a new axle - and it doesn't even need to be from campagnolo. as long as the threading is the same, you can get it as long as you want, cut it to length, clean up the threads, and thread your hardware and wheel on to it.
If you know what threads you need then check out McMaster Carr; they sell metric threaded rods, both fully threaded and threaded both-ends, using high strength steel. You may find something you can use.
https://www.mcmaster.com/threaded-rods
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Old 10-01-19, 04:55 PM
  #5645  
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Originally Posted by 700wheel
If you know what threads you need then check out McMaster Carr; they sell metric threaded rods, both fully threaded and threaded both-ends, using high strength steel. You may find something you can use.
https://www.mcmaster.com/threaded-rods
Thanks guys, appreciate the assist. But this wheel is too damned pretty to just throw some threaded rod at! I think I'll pop for the ¥6000 version from Campy.
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Old 10-02-19, 06:21 AM
  #5646  
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At first, I balked at the idea of a $6000 wheel part, then I realized it was in Yen, and did the conversion. ~$56 seems reasonable.
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Old 10-12-19, 09:33 PM
  #5647  
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This from the Manchester Worlds Master Track Championships site:

UCI amend Championships Age Category Regulations

We are pleased to announce that the UCI have further considered the question of championships age groups and have amended these to include age groups for both men and women up to 75+ years.

Where the minimum numbers of entries per age group, 8 for individual events and 12 for group events, are achieved a stand alone championship will be held.

Where these numbers are not achieved an age group or groups will be combined with an adjacent group and one race held.

However, separate results will be published for each group and championship jerseys and medals will be presented even if there is only one rider in that age group.

The championships web site is currently being updated with this information.

This decision has to be formally ratified by the UCI Management Committee on June 20th.
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Old 10-22-19, 12:30 AM
  #5648  
Baby Puke
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Glue compatibility question for old-school experts:

This seems to happen to me every few years. In Japan, it seems like there is an embargo of sorts against European tubular glues. It's near impossible to get Mastik 1 here. Of course, that's what I have on my wheels. About the only things you can get here are Soyo (I've heard it's a mess) and Panacement (used it with good results in the past). It is possible to mix either of these with Mastik 1 and still stay upright?
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Old 10-22-19, 06:53 AM
  #5649  
topflightpro
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Do you need one of us to mail you some?
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Old 10-22-19, 04:28 PM
  #5650  
Baby Puke
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Originally Posted by topflightpro
Do you need one of us to mail you some?
Well it's the shipping cost that makes it cost prohibitive, but thanks for the offer. It isn't that I CAN'T get it, but I can't get it for a sane amount of money.
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