Newbie Thoughts on Early Brifter Bikes!
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Newbie Thoughts on Early Brifter Bikes!
I’m brand new to Bike Forums and I think I voted incorrectly to the Poll on this Subforum. I think a Subforum devoted to the early brifter bikes is a great idea.
I don’t have any particular thoughts about whether or not Ergopower levers are properly called brifters.
I have an 8 speed Sachs Ergopower gruppo and now that I have a set of Campagnolo’s current cables & housing the shifters work great. Both shifters had a tendency to freeze & lockup and this stopped with the new cables.
I don’t have any particular thoughts about whether or not Ergopower levers are properly called brifters.
I have an 8 speed Sachs Ergopower gruppo and now that I have a set of Campagnolo’s current cables & housing the shifters work great. Both shifters had a tendency to freeze & lockup and this stopped with the new cables.
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That's some pretty rare gear around my way, only come across it once.
And it was on a rather interesting bike - dude was rocking a weird Suntour RD with it that didn't use a housing loop, the bare cable just came straight from the cable guide, onto a pulley/cam bit on the RD (kinda like SRAM), and he reckoned the indexing was spot on. Couldn't find that RD on Disraeli Gears, either.
Anyone know anything about the cable pull on these? I seem to recall it was different to the Campy ones.
And it was on a rather interesting bike - dude was rocking a weird Suntour RD with it that didn't use a housing loop, the bare cable just came straight from the cable guide, onto a pulley/cam bit on the RD (kinda like SRAM), and he reckoned the indexing was spot on. Couldn't find that RD on Disraeli Gears, either.
Anyone know anything about the cable pull on these? I seem to recall it was different to the Campy ones.
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Half-step triple, using double gear ~~~ 6400 STI rebuild walkthrough ~~~ Want 8/9/10s @126mm OLD? OCR. ~~~ Shimano cassette body overhaul ~~~ Ergopower Escape wear repair ~~~ PSA: drivetrain wear
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Careful What You Ask For...
That's some pretty rare gear around my way, only come across it once.
And it was on a rather interesting bike - dude was rocking a weird Suntour RD with it that didn't use a housing loop, the bare cable just came straight from the cable guide, onto a pulley/cam bit on the RD (kinda like SRAM), and he reckoned the indexing was spot on. Couldn't find that RD on Disraeli Gears, either.
Anyone know anything about the cable pull on these? I seem to recall it was different to the Campy ones.
And it was on a rather interesting bike - dude was rocking a weird Suntour RD with it that didn't use a housing loop, the bare cable just came straight from the cable guide, onto a pulley/cam bit on the RD (kinda like SRAM), and he reckoned the indexing was spot on. Couldn't find that RD on Disraeli Gears, either.
Anyone know anything about the cable pull on these? I seem to recall it was different to the Campy ones.
This SunTour Superbe Tech L RD on Disraeli?
(Photo from Velobase.)
Last edited by machinist42; 06-07-21 at 11:31 PM.
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Half-step triple, using double gear ~~~ 6400 STI rebuild walkthrough ~~~ Want 8/9/10s @126mm OLD? OCR. ~~~ Shimano cassette body overhaul ~~~ Ergopower Escape wear repair ~~~ PSA: drivetrain wear
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Maybe @Dfrost will stop by. He has a couple bikes running Sachs brifters. Yes, cable pull is different than Campy.
I mention that because the setup on the black Miyata 912 shifts fabulously with Shimano 8-speed spacing (4.8mm), while the red Marinoni is equally nice with Campy spacing (5.0mm). No, that is NOT an insignificant difference - they don’t play nice if I switch wheels between bikes without correcting cog spacing. This reinforces information that Sachs changed pawl increments sometime in the late 90’s. FWIW, both use loose cogs on either Ultegra or 600 tri-color hubs, primarily Shimano plus a few Miche or SRAM cogs. The cassettes are always one of my “custom” arrangements. I’ve tried using a Shimano RD as an experiment (‘cuz I’m a former test engineer!) but that didn’t work all that well. Those Sachs NS RD’s last forever, and I’ve got spares.
For the OP, I (obviously!) really like Sachs NS with Ergo brifters, especially as an older rider on tall bikes in a hilly urban riding environment - long reach to DT levers when your back is old, bars are high, and shifts are frequent. The brifters are easily rebuilt using available (often inexpensive) Campy parts. But I’ve only needed to do so twice in more than 25 years and over 50,000 miles of use. They are much easier to setup and maintain indexing precision than similar Campy, having also spent plenty of years/miles keeping my wife’s former Campy Chorus 8-speed Ergo working acceptaby. They share the Campy Ergo advantages of easy triple conversions, FD trimming, and complete compatibility with just about any FD. I slightly prefer the front shifts with Campy “Racing T” over several later Suntour FD’s,
———————————————-
And on a different note, I see ABSOLUTELY no value in having discussions about brifter shifting over certain number of gears on a forum other than C&V. I’d much prefer that this and similar information was available to the significant audience over there. Shifting variations are NOT a reason to differentiate.
Last edited by Dfrost; 06-10-21 at 12:25 PM.
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That'd seem to suggest a longer cable pull than Campy...
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And on a different note, I see ABSOLUTELY no value in having discussions about brifter shifting over certain number of gears on a forum other than C&V. I’d much prefer that this and similar information was available to the significant audience over there. Shifting variations are NOT a reason to differentiate.
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Sheldon Brown's bike info ~~~ Park Tools repair help
Half-step triple, using double gear ~~~ 6400 STI rebuild walkthrough ~~~ Want 8/9/10s @126mm OLD? OCR. ~~~ Shimano cassette body overhaul ~~~ Ergopower Escape wear repair ~~~ PSA: drivetrain wear
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Half-step triple, using double gear ~~~ 6400 STI rebuild walkthrough ~~~ Want 8/9/10s @126mm OLD? OCR. ~~~ Shimano cassette body overhaul ~~~ Ergopower Escape wear repair ~~~ PSA: drivetrain wear
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I put Sachs NS Ergos and rear derailleur on my 1994 Cannondale R500, way back in about 1995. It came with RX100 kit with DT shifters. I ran it with a Campy 8-speed cassette, I think.
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For "shifting while standing" the "why you shouldn't do that" case is this:
You try for a way-too-late desperation bail-out shift to your lowest gear, standing on the pedals, heaving on the bars, at full honk, and in time with your stroke. And then your rear derailleur blows into three pieces, and then your rack your 'nads on the top tube, and then you crash.
(This is why I stopped using GripShift on mountain bikes, despite my intense dislike for under-the-bar push-with-your-thumb MTB shifters. And thumb throttles on ATVs.)
--Shannon
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Just because you can doesn't mean that you should.
For "shifting while standing" the "why you shouldn't do that" case is this:
You try for a way-too-late desperation bail-out shift to your lowest gear, standing on the pedals, heaving on the bars, at full honk, and in time with your stroke. And then your rear derailleur blows into three pieces, and then your rack your 'nads on the top tube, and then you crash.
(This is why I stopped using GripShift on mountain bikes, despite my intense dislike for under-the-bar push-with-your-thumb MTB shifters. And thumb throttles on ATVs.)
--Shannon
For "shifting while standing" the "why you shouldn't do that" case is this:
You try for a way-too-late desperation bail-out shift to your lowest gear, standing on the pedals, heaving on the bars, at full honk, and in time with your stroke. And then your rear derailleur blows into three pieces, and then your rack your 'nads on the top tube, and then you crash.
(This is why I stopped using GripShift on mountain bikes, despite my intense dislike for under-the-bar push-with-your-thumb MTB shifters. And thumb throttles on ATVs.)
--Shannon
BTW, sounds like you should invest in a higher class of derailer.
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Sheldon Brown's bike info ~~~ Park Tools repair help
Half-step triple, using double gear ~~~ 6400 STI rebuild walkthrough ~~~ Want 8/9/10s @126mm OLD? OCR. ~~~ Shimano cassette body overhaul ~~~ Ergopower Escape wear repair ~~~ PSA: drivetrain wear
List of US/Canada bike co-ops ~~~ Global list
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Half-step triple, using double gear ~~~ 6400 STI rebuild walkthrough ~~~ Want 8/9/10s @126mm OLD? OCR. ~~~ Shimano cassette body overhaul ~~~ Ergopower Escape wear repair ~~~ PSA: drivetrain wear
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I'm loving the Sachs-Huret New Success gruppo on my newly acquired 1970s Liberia. This is my first experience with lever shifters, as everything else I own or have owned has been down tube, bar end, or thumb shifters.
Received the bike on Thursday of this week, and went on a 30 mile shakedown ride yesterday. Everything was buttery smooth. I won't be switching everything to this type of setup, but it is definitely very nice!
Received the bike on Thursday of this week, and went on a 30 mile shakedown ride yesterday. Everything was buttery smooth. I won't be switching everything to this type of setup, but it is definitely very nice!
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Maybe @Dfrost will stop by. He has a couple bikes running Sachs brifters. Yes, cable pull is different than Campy.
Yes, as @tricky notes, both of my bikes use Sachs New Success Ergo brifters. (And I call them brifters all the time. No reason not to!) The RD are both Sachs NS medium cage that appear to be identical.
I mention that because the setup on the black Miyata 912 shifts fabulously with Shimano 8-speed spacing (4.8mm), while the red Marinoni is equally nice with Campy spacing (5.0mm). No, that is NOT an insignificant difference - they don’t play nice if I switch wheels between bikes without correcting cog spacing. This reinforces information that Sachs changed pawl increments sometime in the late 90’s. FWIW, both use loose cogs on either Ultegra or 600 tri-color hubs, primarily Shimano plus a few Miche or SRAM cogs. The cassettes are always one of my “custom” arrangements. I’ve tried using a Shimano RD as an experiment (‘cuz I’m a former test engineer!) but that didn’t work all that well. Those Sachs NS RD’s last forever, and I’ve got spares.
For the OP, I (obviously!) really like Sachs NS with Ergo brifters, especially as an older rider on tall bikes in a hilly urban riding environment - long reach to DT levers when your back is old, bars are high, and shifts are frequent. The brifters are easily rebuilt using available (often inexpensive) Campy parts. But I’ve only needed to do so twice in more than 25 years and over 50,000 miles of use. They are much easier to setup and maintain indexing precision than similar Campy, having also spent plenty of years/miles keeping my wife’s former Campy Chorus 8-speed Ergo working acceptaby. They share the Campy Ergo advantages of easy triple conversions, FD trimming, and complete compatibility with just about any FD. I slightly prefer the front shifts with Campy “Racing T” over several later Suntour FD’s,
I mention that because the setup on the black Miyata 912 shifts fabulously with Shimano 8-speed spacing (4.8mm), while the red Marinoni is equally nice with Campy spacing (5.0mm). No, that is NOT an insignificant difference - they don’t play nice if I switch wheels between bikes without correcting cog spacing. This reinforces information that Sachs changed pawl increments sometime in the late 90’s. FWIW, both use loose cogs on either Ultegra or 600 tri-color hubs, primarily Shimano plus a few Miche or SRAM cogs. The cassettes are always one of my “custom” arrangements. I’ve tried using a Shimano RD as an experiment (‘cuz I’m a former test engineer!) but that didn’t work all that well. Those Sachs NS RD’s last forever, and I’ve got spares.
For the OP, I (obviously!) really like Sachs NS with Ergo brifters, especially as an older rider on tall bikes in a hilly urban riding environment - long reach to DT levers when your back is old, bars are high, and shifts are frequent. The brifters are easily rebuilt using available (often inexpensive) Campy parts. But I’ve only needed to do so twice in more than 25 years and over 50,000 miles of use. They are much easier to setup and maintain indexing precision than similar Campy, having also spent plenty of years/miles keeping my wife’s former Campy Chorus 8-speed Ergo working acceptaby. They share the Campy Ergo advantages of easy triple conversions, FD trimming, and complete compatibility with just about any FD. I slightly prefer the front shifts with Campy “Racing T” over several later Suntour FD’s,
https://lecycleur.com/parts/history-...s-new-success/
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As to "higher class of derailleur"... It was a Deore XT, so, no, that wasn't the problem.
This was the problem:
Shifting chain-and-derailleur drivetrains under high pedalling force is always and everywhere bad for them. I'd bet a sixer of your favorite malted beverage that, if one were to conduct a poll here on BF as to "How did you break your chain", "I tried to downshift on a steep section while pedalling hard" would be the #1 answer, and by a big margin. And, if you break your drivetrain in this, the most likely way for you to do so, it's going to really, really suck.
There are many good reasons to like, and even to prefer, integrated brake/shift levers. "They allow me to shift while standing" is not a particularly good reason, because you pretty much shouldn't be doing that.
--Shannon
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I've never even come close to having a problem shifting to larger cogs while standing, but I've always used close ratio cassettes. I'd also assert there's nothing wrong with dropping to smaller cogs while giving it the beans no matter what your cassette.
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Sheldon Brown's bike info ~~~ Park Tools repair help
Half-step triple, using double gear ~~~ 6400 STI rebuild walkthrough ~~~ Want 8/9/10s @126mm OLD? OCR. ~~~ Shimano cassette body overhaul ~~~ Ergopower Escape wear repair ~~~ PSA: drivetrain wear
List of US/Canada bike co-ops ~~~ Global list
Sheldon Brown's bike info ~~~ Park Tools repair help
Half-step triple, using double gear ~~~ 6400 STI rebuild walkthrough ~~~ Want 8/9/10s @126mm OLD? OCR. ~~~ Shimano cassette body overhaul ~~~ Ergopower Escape wear repair ~~~ PSA: drivetrain wear
List of US/Canada bike co-ops ~~~ Global list
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Yes, as @tricky notes, both of my bikes use Sachs New Success Ergo brifters. (And I call them brifters all the time. No reason not to!) The RD are both Sachs NS medium cage that appear to be identical.
Those Sachs NS RD’s last forever, and I’ve got spares.
For the OP, I (obviously!) really like Sachs NS with Ergo brifters, especially as an older rider on tall bikes in a hilly urban riding environment - long reach to DT levers when your back is old, bars are high, and shifts are frequent. They share the Campy Ergo advantages of easy triple conversions, FD trimming, and complete compatibility with just about any FD. I slightly prefer the front shifts with Campy “Racing T” over several later.
Those Sachs NS RD’s last forever, and I’ve got spares.
For the OP, I (obviously!) really like Sachs NS with Ergo brifters, especially as an older rider on tall bikes in a hilly urban riding environment - long reach to DT levers when your back is old, bars are high, and shifts are frequent. They share the Campy Ergo advantages of easy triple conversions, FD trimming, and complete compatibility with just about any FD. I slightly prefer the front shifts with Campy “Racing T” over several later.
#2. Old... Check. Tall Bikes... Check. Hilly urban light to light sprinting ... Check. Campy or Sachs ergo levers with random FD's and Triples... Check.
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Those floating pulleys are a significant difference from similar era Campy RD’s, and seem to be the reason that the Sachs are so easy to adjust, and keep in adjustment, based on a long-term “relationship” with Campy 8-speed Chorus on my wife’s former custom Erickson.
Last edited by Dfrost; 07-09-21 at 11:45 AM. Reason: Not sure why BF didn’t like the word above. It was not an obscenity
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On a hill climb, I'm way more likely to be dropping from the big to the little chain ring as I cruise on the big chain ring at all other times, but if I shift to a bigger cog going uphill, it makes a bit of noise, but I've never busted a chain or broke a derailleur while shifting in about 45 years of riding with them, and I'm the king of bad habits. I shift while standing a lot.
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I’m running Sachs ergos and new success in the rear, and it shifts well over a 7 speed shimano freewheel. More fun than reaching between my legs on a 10% hill to shift.
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It appears that the Sachs Ergo/Brifters are the equivalent of the first gen of the Campagnolo.
See Rebuilding Ergo Levers — Branford Bike
See Rebuilding Ergo Levers — Branford Bike
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