tetonrider

can we agree to not disagree?

Hermes

@tetonrider USAC cannot send out invitations until UCI provides them with authorization. IMO, USAC does a good job in managing this matter but most of it is out of their control.

Doge

I've looked up a lot of those names. I just looked up Steve. To this point it is primarily a SoCal competition, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it change. We've had visiting World Tour Pros contest, and some out-of-state riders.

It is the epitome of grass roots racing. The ride roles out slowly and stops after 30 min for a remembrance/prayer time. Then it is a race to an imaginary line or intersection - all categories, all ages, dopers and non dopers. Riders must stop at traffic controls and self police. Last couple years the finish was moved to not have 3 lights affect it (good idea). Much of this route was used for the 2008 national TT.

Here is a 2014 write-up and clip.
SoCalCycling.com Video: Roger's Cup

rubiksoval

To qualify for that single UCI GF world championship, you have to place in the top 30 of your age group at a qualifying race, leading to a potential water-downed peloton of lackluster racers and participants. That's been said repeatedly. Not sure what's so confusing about that.

I'm wrong? You don't seem to understand how opinions work, nor how to actually refute cogent claims and assertions related to that opinion. Simply regressing to quips of "dog" and "you're wrong" is sorely lacking and is a conspicuous indication of an inability to provide an appropriate counter-claim.

You think getting one of a dozen top 30s in one of a dozen qualifying races leads to a vetted, credible, and distinguished "world champion bike racer"? I do not. I think it's just a money grab for a participation event that has a title that really doesn't mean anything.

topflightpro

Some thoughts:

I see Gran Fondos a lot like the Boston Marathon. It's a legit race at the front, and they guy who wins is generally pretty bad ass. Yeah, there are a lot of participants in the back, but that is OK. And sometimes, it's cool to be able to say you "raced" against so and so.

At masters nationals, I don't see many Cat 3s in the RR or Crit. And the ones who do show up tend to be locals doing it because it's local. They also tend to be near the back or off the back. (I know from experience.)

Speaking of masters track nationals, for the individual events, there is no category requirements for racing. And for the UCI Masters Track Worlds, the only prerequisite is to sign up. I've started racing track this year. I could sign up for Masters Worlds in LA.

As Teton said, money is a major component for any masters championship. Those who have the money to travel to races can do it. Money also seems to be a component in doping (to bring this back around to the focus of this thread.) I'm guessing it's not cheap to get on a good doping regimen.

(Side note, I'm competing in the masters track nats this year. I have minimal experience, but I meet the qualifications to enter. And it's local to me. I would not have traveled to compete. But if I were to win something, I'd totally do stripes on my kit. Hell, I'd probably do a one-off kit to change the colors to red, white and blue, instead of the shades of green we use. And I'd probably wear my medal around my neck for the first week, or month.)

merlinextraligh

I'm a mediocre, at best, Cat 3.


The only Gran Fondo I've ever done was L'Etape de Tour. At the front of that there are some seriously talented riders.


I wasn't even close to top 30 for my age group ( there were over 8000 entrants), and I actually felt pretty good finishing in the top 30%.


One of my teammates for the event, also a Cat 3 was swept, not making the time limit.


My understanding is that American Gran Fondos are not as uniformally hard as the one's in Europe. But to me a top 30 in about any age group in a GF like Etape would be much harder than just getting to Cat 3.

miyata man

Since you went there. I once told a BF alumni's wife that contesting a fondo was like jumping on the course of the Boston marathon and mixing in with the participants near the front. People still do both to the benefit of their own selfishness.

Ygduf

yes.

first you compared it to usac category champions which have a barrier of cat-3 which is a much lower qualifier. Now you're pissing into the wind about "world championship" when not every single racer in the world is in the race, ignoring that's the way every single "world championship whatever" works. "world series", "world cup", pro "world RR champ", etc... At the minimum, the GFWC at least has qualifying events and participants from all over the world.

I was salty yesterday from RL stuff, but I'm out now on this. You're being purposefully ignorant at this point. Hold your breath for that UCI World RR Championship, though.

revchuck 

@rubiksoval - You seem to be convinced that all cyclists who do gran fondos belong to the helmet mirror brigade. Your use of the qualifier "potential" applies as much to regular races as to gran fondos. At a national-level qualifier you'll find folks who have trained specifically for that event, be it road race, crit, gran fondo or whatever. Of course there are folks who are just doing it as participants, just as there are racers who show up knowing they have no chance of winning.

I was there at the event, doing the longer/harder version because I had never climbed more than 12k feet in one ride. My group started before the qualifier and the peloton passed us at about 25-27 mph. And later in the ride I passed some of them. The guy who took first did 100 miles/9800 (?) ft in just over four hours IIRC. Not too shabby. I'm pretty sure he wasn't using a helmet mirror.

Heathpack 

@topflightpro, I know you promote races. Is there a standard "cut" of the proceeds that goes to USAC?

rubiksoval

Well, I've certainly neither stated nor implied that. What I did state was that a fondo is not a race, it is a participation event. Which it is. And qualifying (by finishing top 30 in an age group) to go to the "world championships" is not in any way a rigorous task for most bike racers, and apparently some club riders who don't race in the first place.

I don't know why "training" for an event is supposed to give it credibility. Would it make it less credible if guys were using the event for "training" for other races?

The guy who took first is my teammate. He also got third at master's nats, and is racing tomorrow at elite nats. Three of my other teammates also qualified by podiuming their age group. So what? I doubt they'd even list that on their resumes. I cared so little I didn't even bother going just for the training.

Anyway, we all have our opinions. Mine is this. I know my teammate is taking a holiday in France and is going to do the worlds. He wants to do well but he wants to do well at everything. None of my other teammates are because, well, they don't particularly care...

So there's that.

rubiksoval

You've gotten to the point where you're simply ignoring all of my rebuttals to your points and making up something new entirely. I'd assert I'm quite a bit more knowledgeable about this than you based on that alone.

rubiksoval

I think globecanvas already made that comparison, which is a decent one.

But the guys that win it are not doing the same event as everyone else. They have their own separate race. It's my understanding (and I know this for fact for certain races, though not all) if you are not in that elite corral you're not even eligible for the prize money. Meaning you can go and win the Boston Marathon and you won't officially win it. Same as triathlon. You're in the same event, but you're not racing the pro field and even if you were to beat them, you wouldn't get any of that prize money.

But yes, triathlon and running, both participatory, both involving races. But the actual races are for the actual racers, and that's kind of the point all along.

TheKillerPenguin

back on topic.

Tour de France cyclist Talansky uses neuroscience technology Halo - Business Insider

whadaaaafugggg!

rubiksoval

You're a 3 who got there by moving up through the ranks of bike racing. That's the entire gist of my post on bike racing being in comparison to gran fondos.

I know little about the competitive aspect of l'etape and the haute routes and all of that in Europe, other than some cursory reading. Oh, and that Michelle Ferrari's son has won a bunch and thinks he should be on a protour team or something because of that but can't get a contract because he's Michelle Ferrari's son.

I'm sure you would have done just fine in Alabama unless you had a pretty rough day.

rubiksoval

Oh, Talansky.

TheKillerPenguin

He's on my fantasy team! Why do I do these things to myself?!

topflightpro

Sort of. There isn't a cut but there are upfront fees.

There is the permit fee, which ranges from $50 to $250 depending on type of event, number of participants, and how far in advance you file the permit paperwork.

Then there is a per-rider insurance fee. It is $2.50 per rider for USAC sanctioned charity rides, $3.75 for races, and $3.50 for gravel races and Gran Fondos.

On top of that, there are local association fees. The LAs are USAC affiliated but independent nonprofits. If I remember correctly, our LA charges $1 per rider if the entry fee is $25 or less, and $1.25 or $1.50 if it's more than $25.

The LA handles most of the local race stuff, including officials, cameras, computers.... I think the LA also would be responsible for implementing any doping controls at its events, as well as funding state/LA championship events.

Ygduf

placebo at a minimum!

Heathpack 

And then after you as a promoter pay all those fees, you keep all the rest of the money you collect?

topflightpro

Not quite.

You have to pay the officials - they are organized and certified by the LA, but you have to pay for each one, and their rates vary based on level and experience. Plus, you have to pay their mileage to drive to the event. Sometimes you get stuck with officials who are driving 200-300 miles to your event, and you have no say over it. And USAC tells you how many officials you need.

Then there are venue fees. Sometimes it's rental for a track or city permits or barriers. There may be police fees or porta potty rentals. Police are probably the most expensive piece there. It's usually about $35 per hour per officer, and the police tell you how many officers you need and where.

Then you have to pay for other race related stuff, like numbers, pins, medals, prizes, printing waivers....

Then there is the purse.

If there is anything left after that, you get to keep it.

tetonrider

is there something wrong with talansky that i missed? serious question.

gerundium

Comparing a Gran Fondo to a marathon is roughtly accurate. It's a participation event with a race aspect. The front of a gran fondo is crazy strong though. The most famous one La Marmotte has previous winners such as Laurens ten Dam before he went pro just to give you an indication of the level required to be in the front there.

Grumpy McTrumpy

In my case, the club treasury kept it. I got basically nothing at all for being the promoter of record. I don't think that's a rare case either.

Racer Ex 

Pretty sure the headset box they sent him after his agent inked the contract had a check in it.