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Old 10-24-17, 01:34 PM
  #4601  
JimiMimni
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Speaking of data requests:

Does anyone know of, or have comparison data for bar width vs shape? Specifically, and I realize this is a specific use case, can you compare a 38cm round aluminum bar vs. a 40cm 3T Aeronova bar? I have the Fairwheel data set that compares stiffness measured by deflection, but nothing about actual savings in drag. Watching the Euros, and most of the high level track bunch races I see a mix of narrow bars and aero bars.

I've been told that in regards to track cycling, narrow is aero, but in this specific case, is it?

Better still, does anyone know of an aero-profile bar that's 38cm? I'm sure Scattos would be a better purchase, but: having a bit more versatility, and price are arguments against them. (See: No sphinx/alternate hand positions)
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Old 10-24-17, 01:38 PM
  #4602  
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Zipp SL comes in a 38. Granted, it flares out to 40cm at the drops.
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Old 10-24-17, 02:00 PM
  #4603  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Nobody asked you what you do for a living. You kept volunteering it, "I'm a photographer.", "I'm an engineer.", "I'm a programmer.", "I'm a guitarist". So?
Please don't pick up single words/sentences from posts. Read the context first!
Example:
Ok. I have never introduced myself but... I am news photographer. I know what parallax is. In fact each picture you posted has this issue. I was actually aware of it but decided not to go with details as if you use bad samples I was sure you will not notice wrong angle on my picture(...)In fact, I used a spirit level for measurement but since I don't have more than 2 hands I took a picture without it cause it was easier to do it and I thought nobody will notice it ;-) Anyway, I just retried it with homemade "piece of proof". Again, the contact points are NOT behind the front axle.
I have a low tolerance for bull****. If my bull**** meter needs calibration, then somebody let me know.
I don't mind, seriously. Everyone makes mistakes. In the same post I quoted above you can find some bull**** from your side that I pointed out, you just simple ignored it and focused on "I am news photographer" in the reply. This is populism. I have a right to defend myself. I think there is nothing more to add here.

Cheers.
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Old 10-24-17, 03:19 PM
  #4604  
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Originally Posted by Divebrian View Post
This is true to a point, but what works for Rider A (more powerful) is not always a good choice for Rider B. Not trying to be nit picky, but there are difference between each rider. Now, if your looking for the strongest or most durable, then Rider A to B comparison will work. However, something that is better for Rider A, may be stronger, stiffer, etc and may work for Rider A as their weight gives it a different characteristic that may not be so good for Rider B. Think of shocks for vehicles. If I take the shocks off my 1 ton truck and put them on your passenger car, then they will not work well...they will be too stiff and not forgiving enough.

With bikes, with me weighing well over 200 lbs, my set up may be wary too harsh for a 150 lb rider and they may end up being slower as the bike is too twitchy and moves all over the track on them, which makes them slower in the end as "smoother is faster" and they can't be smooth on my bike. What is best for one track will not necessarily be best for another track due to track construction materials, radius of turns, bumps, etc.
This is true. These are also things that can be determined using anecdotal experience. Although the point I was trying to make is not inclusive of every choice that can be made, I was referring to the example given of pedal release tensions, where something like that would apply (if the pedal retains a stronger rider, then it will be strong enough for a weaker rider, regardless of knowing it's actual retention value).

As with all things cycling related, we invest a lot of time and money into our choices. It's good to have information, and more information helps us to make educated decisions. Information also needs to be looked at in it's proper context. Different parameters will apply to differing pieces of equipment, as well as how and who they are for. It's important to keep in mind what matters to whom and when. Some things can be true for everyone across the board. It's been mentioned before, just because something isn't the strongest, doesn't mean it's not strong enough. Then again, strongest is still strongest. How you use the information is up to you.
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Old 10-26-17, 07:22 PM
  #4605  
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Originally Posted by JimiMimni View Post
Speaking of data requests:

Does anyone know of, or have comparison data for bar width vs shape? Specifically, and I realize this is a specific use case, can you compare a 38cm round aluminum bar vs. a 40cm 3T Aeronova bar? I have the Fairwheel data set that compares stiffness measured by deflection, but nothing about actual savings in drag. Watching the Euros, and most of the high level track bunch races I see a mix of narrow bars and aero bars.

I've been told that in regards to track cycling, narrow is aero, but in this specific case, is it?

Better still, does anyone know of an aero-profile bar that's 38cm? I'm sure Scattos would be a better purchase, but: having a bit more versatility, and price are arguments against them. (See: No sphinx/alternate hand positions)
I think it was Zipp that came out with some data that suggested a 40cm round bar is more aerodynamic as package (with rider) than an wing shaped 44cm bar. Going from an aero 40cm bar to a round might be reasonably similar as you would possibly gain more from the positional change that what you're losing with the bar shape.

As mentioned the Enve aero bars are quite narrow towards the front of the drops, Almost the same width as the considerably cheaper Zipp 36cm bars https://www.pushys.com.au/zipp-servi...hed-black.html
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Old 10-27-17, 09:06 AM
  #4606  
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Originally Posted by pierrej View Post
I think it was Zipp that came out with some data that suggested a 40cm round bar is more aerodynamic as package (with rider) than an wing shaped 44cm bar. Going from an aero 40cm bar to a round might be reasonably similar as you would possibly gain more from the positional change that what you're losing with the bar shape.

As mentioned the Enve aero bars are quite narrow towards the front of the drops, Almost the same width as the considerably cheaper Zipp 36cm bars https://www.pushys.com.au/zipp-servi...hed-black.html
Oooh, good to know. That's what I was curious about. Seems like bar shape is much less important than bar size, which means you can use a stiffer, narrower bar without aero penalty. Thanks for the info!

Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
If your wallet is really weighing you down these days, you can get these ENVE aero road bars: https://enve.com/products/ses-aero-road-bar-v2/ They're 35 cm at the hoods and flare to 40 in the drops.

These Giant SLR aero bars are 38s: https://bobs-bikes.com/product/giant...r-244230-1.htm

And Bontrager offer 38s for both their alloy and carbon aero road bars: https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/e...lebar/p/11292/ and https://www.trekbikes.com/us/en_US/e...lebar/p/11289/
Thanks! I forgot to mention, I have the Giant bars on my road bike, and they're FLEXY. As in I thought I was going to break them doing hard efforts on the trainer last winter. The drops really move a lot when all 75-78kg of spindly armed me torque them. I'll have to look in to the Bontragers, since their logo is on our team kits!
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Old 10-28-17, 11:40 AM
  #4607  
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What sort of super cheap brake would work on a track fork?
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Old 10-28-17, 01:01 PM
  #4608  
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...it's drilled. That's why I'm asking in the first place
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Old 10-28-17, 01:28 PM
  #4609  
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
...it's drilled. That's why I'm asking in the first place
Just go to a local bike shop. They should have new and used options in stock as well as levers. You may need short or long reach brake calipers.

You'll want a non-shifting lever. A shifting lever from a road bike will work (if it's free). But don't pay extra $$ because you won't need to shift.

Have a look here for options. This is a common thing in the street fixed gear scene.

https://www.retro-gression.com/colle.../brakes-levers
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Old 10-29-17, 08:59 PM
  #4610  
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I'm looking for an aero stem that can be mounted with positive angle. Something like 3T Integra or similar. Unfortunately it looks like they can are only negative angle compatible.

Seems like Look had C-STEM but they are not available anymore.
Anything in the market?
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Old 10-30-17, 06:19 AM
  #4611  
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Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
FWIW I don't remember where I saw this, but I think more headset spacers and a flatter stem angle is "more aero" than fewer spacers with a positive rise stem.
You saw it from Specialized.

They came out with a study that it is more aero to have a -17 stem and their 25mm riser than to go with a stem that is angled up (anything less than -17) and flatter bars.
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Old 10-30-17, 06:53 AM
  #4612  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
You saw it from Specialized.

They came out with a study that it is more aero to have a -17 stem and their 25mm riser than to go with a stem that is angled up (anything less than -17) and flatter bars.
I was wondering how they were marketing that abomination of a bar. Riser road bars.
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Old 10-30-17, 07:43 AM
  #4613  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
You saw it from Specialized.

They came out with a study that it is more aero to have a -17 stem and their 25mm riser than to go with a stem that is angled up (anything less than -17) and flatter bars.
The bike manufacturers have all of the wind tunnel studies...and they only publish the ones that move products off of the shelf. That's why when bike company engineers write things on forums, I pay particular attention.

Imagine how many studies they have that say, "That old part that you can get from the corner bike shop is better than the new carbon doo-dad..." that they simply won't publish for obvious reasons.

That's why I took particular interest in the "Mavic IO vs Zipp 808" thread on Slowtwitch.

Most of us will never own most (or any) of the high-end gear we see at the highest levels of racing. So, we assume that the latest-greatest doodads are faster than normal doodads...with little or no proof. This is a reasonable assumption. But, the most reasonable assumption we should make is that the latest-greatest doodads are not slower than normal doodads.


...maybe it makes us faster because our wallets are lighter

Last edited by carleton; 10-30-17 at 02:19 PM.
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Old 10-30-17, 03:50 PM
  #4614  
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Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
FWIW I don't remember where I saw this, but I think more headset spacers and a flatter stem angle is "more aero" than fewer spacers with a positive rise stem.
There is actually a thread about it on this forum :-)
https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cyc...be-height.html

Anyway, I was more interested in the esthetic overview than pros/cons ;-)
In fact, I read about the Look C-Stem and this is not an option for a regular steerer tube. It works only with specifically designed ones (provided by Look )

Originally Posted by topflightpro
They came out with a study that it is more aero to have a -17 stem and their 25mm riser than to go with a stem that is angled up (anything less than -17) and flatter bars
Hmmmm haven't seen the Specs data (so maybe they also mentioned about it) but wondering how someone can judge -17 stem as more aero then any other value if not taking head tube angle in calculation?

Last edited by bartek.; 10-30-17 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 10-30-17, 05:13 PM
  #4615  
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Originally Posted by bartek. View Post
Hmmmm haven't seen the Specs data (so maybe they also mentioned about it) but wondering how someone can judge -17 stem as more aero then any other value if not taking head tube angle in calculation?
That's because on road/track bikes, the headtube angles are within 2-3 degrees of each other, (72-74/75). So you're not going to be far off from perfectly horizontal with a -17 degree stem. Perfectly horizontal is the most aerodynamic stem set up. Deviate from this and it gets worse the more you go. Obviously of you have a 72* head tube, then -18 is going to be perfect, and 74* would need -16. As 73 degrees is right down the middle, this is what works best.
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Old 10-31-17, 03:29 PM
  #4616  
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Interval Training

During the offseason, those focused on points and scratch races, how much of your on the bike training is doing high intensity intervals (power zone 6, and Vo2 Max)?
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Old 10-31-17, 06:34 PM
  #4617  
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None. I'll get some efforts in naturally during some of my rides, but no formal intervals. The break is psychological as much as it is physiological.
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Old 10-31-17, 07:28 PM
  #4618  
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Originally Posted by JuiceWillis View Post
During the offseason, those focused on points and scratch races, how much of your on the bike training is doing high intensity intervals (power zone 6, and Vo2 Max)?
I'm an enduro. I work on my sprint throughout the offseason - what better time to improve it? And Vo2max work (Z5) is a key part of aerobic development that I do in the offseason. I do less Z6 stuff in the winter. Some, but not much. That comes into my schedule more during spring builds.

There's a traditional approach of taking a big chunk of time off and starting from a clean slate with a lot of endurance work and foundational miles, but I'm a proponent of a very flipped approach - that the offseason is a great time to build power, even if you're letting some endurance wither.
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Old 11-01-17, 09:45 AM
  #4619  
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Originally Posted by JuiceWillis View Post
During the offseason, those focused on points and scratch races, how much of your on the bike training is doing high intensity intervals (power zone 6, and Vo2 Max)?
What do you mean by off-season? The reduced training after the racing season or the entire period between racing seasons? Many racers will take a break and then start building in a training season for the next racing season.
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Old 11-01-17, 09:48 AM
  #4620  
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Originally Posted by spartanKid View Post
I've heard of other enduros and crit racers who do this during the off season as well, especially because they'll actually do weights in the "off-season", but once weekly racing is in full swing, they drop the weights all together.
yup. honestly i can't believe that i used to go all fall and winter without sprinting and then expect to sprint well in the spring. it doesn't make any sense.

i got some weights goin' on now, too, and while i've heard of people who incorporate them in the season, i never tried too hard to make that work.
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Old 11-05-17, 05:32 PM
  #4621  
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Elbows out vs elbows in, opinions?
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Old 11-05-17, 07:01 PM
  #4622  
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Originally Posted by pierrej View Post
Elbows out vs elbows in, opinions?
Whichever makes *you* go faster.
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Old 11-06-17, 01:18 PM
  #4623  
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Originally Posted by pierrej View Post
Elbows out vs elbows in, opinions?
Time trials, elbows in; mass start and match sprint, elbows used as appropriate to the situation.
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Old 11-06-17, 03:23 PM
  #4624  
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Elbows in for aero. While elbows out may make you a bigger obstacle to get around, my thoughts (with zero data to back it up) are that the cost to speed may cancel out the extra width you make your opponent travel around you
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Old 11-06-17, 06:38 PM
  #4625  
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When doing a 200, I try to tuck elbows in after crossing the 100m line as it's basically hanging on from there.
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