Notices
Track Cycling: Velodrome Racing and Training Area Looking to enter into the realm of track racing? Want to share your experiences and tactics for riding on a velodrome? The Track Cycling forums is for you! Come in and discuss training/racing, equipment, and current track cycling events.

Interesting finds around the web

Old 11-11-17, 05:25 PM
  #1376  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,956
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1382 Post(s)
Liked 88 Times in 73 Posts
Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
I believe Roy came over from the BMX team.
Good call. I think Hoogland was a BMXer, too.

You know, outside of the women's TP team (which seems to be it's own entity), the US has some of the best speed skating, BMX, and track and field feeder programs in the world...yet we can't tap into those and pull out great athletes to put on track bike.

It's a failure of our National Team system, not the pool of available talent.
carleton is offline  
Old 11-12-17, 04:35 PM
  #1377  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,956
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1382 Post(s)
Liked 88 Times in 73 Posts
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Who says that 33cm sprint bars are too small for Madison throws:

I also think these are 33cm Alpinas:



So, 33cm Alpinas were used by the men's (DEN) and women's (GBR) winning Madison teams at the World Cup this weekend.

Does this change the "meta" regarding handlebars for the Madison?
carleton is offline  
Old 11-12-17, 07:21 PM
  #1378  
Godsight
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Qc,Canada
Posts: 159

Bikes: Felt TK FRD

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I think the narrower handlebar meta was already there in endurance racing (considering the number of riders on 35cm scatto or 33cm alpina in omnium events). Mostly a case of old habits die hard and the reluctance of pro rider trying new stuff when they are still winning with the old stuff. More riders winning on narrow handlebars will push the rest of the peleton to atleast try narrow handlebar. I think the same will happen for skinsuit with number pockets in the near future. A good example of this would be the usage of short TT helmets in mass-start events, during less important events it is less seen but come the World Championship or the Olympics and the use of short TT helmets goes up.
Godsight is offline  
Old 11-12-17, 07:56 PM
  #1379  
queerpunk
aka mattio
 
queerpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,583

Bikes: yes

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 343 Post(s)
Liked 56 Times in 34 Posts
what does this term "meta" mean in this context? i don't know this usage.
queerpunk is offline  
Old 11-12-17, 09:17 PM
  #1380  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,956
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1382 Post(s)
Liked 88 Times in 73 Posts
Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
what does this term "meta" mean in this context? i don't know this usage.
Sorry. I learned this term from video gaming. I used to play video games competitively (as in esports). So, there is a lot of talk about techniques, strategies, loadouts (character weapon choices), etc...

The "meta" is the current "Best Practices" for the sport. For example, for track racing, some of the "new meta" for sprinting would include things like:

- Big gears for F200
- Double-disc for all time trials indoors.
- Longer cranks (for some)
- 33-37cm bars

"Old meta" would be:
- Spin to Win
- 38-40cm bars

So, when a new weapon or character is introduced to an esports game, there is a lot of chatter in the competitive community about whether the meta will change. "Will the new thing change how we've been doing things in the past. Is it better or worse?"

Another example: Felt introduced a high-end left-side drive bike for the Olympics, going against the meta of right-side drive. This did not seem to change the meta as there haven't been a big shift to LSD with cranks or hubs...but people wondered about it.

Last edited by carleton; 11-12-17 at 09:41 PM. Reason: Clarification
carleton is offline  
Old 11-12-17, 09:18 PM
  #1381  
Godsight
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Qc,Canada
Posts: 159

Bikes: Felt TK FRD

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 59 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
meta is the Most Effective Tactic Available, mainly used in video games context or strategy games. Also the proper spelling of esports has no capital letter in it and it's definitely not E-Sports

Last edited by Godsight; 11-12-17 at 09:23 PM.
Godsight is offline  
Old 11-12-17, 09:38 PM
  #1382  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,956
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1382 Post(s)
Liked 88 Times in 73 Posts
Originally Posted by Godsight View Post
meta is the Most Effective Tactic Available, mainly used in video games context or strategy games. Also the proper spelling of esports has no capital letter in it and it's definitely not E-Sports
HAHAHAHA. Thanks for the clarification!
carleton is offline  
Old 11-12-17, 09:48 PM
  #1383  
pierrej
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 152
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
I'd imagine it wasn't necessarily the width that was the limiting factor, more the available hand position for the sling. Most of the narrower bars tend to be sprint oriented and obviously slope away from the clamp area, the alpina have more of this than most other narrow bars.
Also without any negative connotations, the bars are comparitively bigger for the women using them than they would be for their male counterparts.
pierrej is offline  
Old 11-12-17, 09:52 PM
  #1384  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,956
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1382 Post(s)
Liked 88 Times in 73 Posts
Originally Posted by pierrej View Post
Also without any negative connotations, the bars are comparitively bigger for the women using them than they would be for their male counterparts.
It's not negative to say that women would likely have more narrow hands.

But those are both women's (blue/white) and men's (red/white) winning teams in the photos above.
carleton is offline  
Old 11-12-17, 09:55 PM
  #1385  
pierrej
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 152
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
So they are haha, I'd seen a few alpinas in the women's mass start races at the euro championships so it does look like a developing trend
pierrej is offline  
Old 11-12-17, 11:56 PM
  #1386  
tobukog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 233
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Liked 17 Times in 9 Posts
Originally Posted by pierrej View Post
I'd imagine it wasn't necessarily the width that was the limiting factor, more the available hand position for the sling. Most of the narrower bars tend to be sprint oriented and obviously slope away from the clamp area, the alpina have more of this than most other narrow bars.
Also without any negative connotations, the bars are comparitively bigger for the women using them than they would be for their male counterparts.
This. Wider bars are actually a disadvantage in a madison exchange.
tobukog is offline  
Old 11-13-17, 12:44 AM
  #1387  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,956
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1382 Post(s)
Liked 88 Times in 73 Posts
Originally Posted by tobukog View Post
This. Wider bars are actually a disadvantage in a madison exchange.
No doubt.

But, Alpinas have no flat top. They are designed from the ground up as sprint bars without a nod to The Madison. The original Alpina sprint bars came in 38 and 40cm and were very similar to in shape, reach, and depth to Nitto B123 and Easton EC90. The 33cm bars showed up around the time Team GB was experimenting with gear AND they were still riding Dolan bikes. I think Hoy and/or Pendleton were the first to have some unbranded 33cm Alpinas. Methinks that Team GB asked Alpina to make them. Before that, Hoy was seen riding 34cm Nitto B123.

The reason I was told that road bars were preferred for the Madison is because riders wanted the wid flat/horizontal grip area for the left hand to hold on to for the exchange.

Apparently the amount of area needed for the left hand to grip isn't as much as people thought

EDIT:

Also, there's nothing like seeing people win with a novel idea that inspires others to try it as well. I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing more "super narrow" (not just narrow) bars in all levels in all events.
carleton is offline  
Old 11-13-17, 02:03 AM
  #1388  
SyntaxMonstr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 88
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Sorry. I learned this term from video gaming. I used to play video games competitively (as in esports). So, there is a lot of talk about techniques, strategies, loadouts (character weapon choices), etc...

The "meta" is the current "Best Practices" for the sport. For example, for track racing, some of the "new meta" for sprinting would include things like:

...

So, when a new weapon or character is introduced to an esports game, there is a lot of chatter in the competitive community about whether the meta will change. "Will the new thing change how we've been doing things in the past. Is it better or worse?"

Another example: Felt introduced a high-end left-side drive bike for the Olympics, going against the meta of right-side drive. This did not seem to change the meta as there haven't been a big shift to LSD with cranks or hubs...but people wondered about it.
As a former competitive gamer, I love everything about this post.
SyntaxMonstr is offline  
Old 11-13-17, 04:13 AM
  #1389  
tobukog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 233
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Liked 17 Times in 9 Posts
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
No doubt.

But, Alpinas have no flat top. They are designed from the ground up as sprint bars without a nod to The Madison. The original Alpina sprint bars came in 38 and 40cm and were very similar to in shape, reach, and depth to Nitto B123 and Easton EC90. The 33cm bars showed up around the time Team GB was experimenting with gear AND they were still riding Dolan bikes. I think Hoy and/or Pendleton were the first to have some unbranded 33cm Alpinas. Methinks that Team GB asked Alpina to make them. Before that, Hoy was seen riding 34cm Nitto B123.

The reason I was told that road bars were preferred for the Madison is because riders wanted the wid flat/horizontal grip area for the left hand to hold on to for the exchange.

Apparently the amount of area needed for the left hand to grip isn't as much as people thought

EDIT:

Also, there's nothing like seeing people win with a novel idea that inspires others to try it as well. I wouldn't be surprised if we started seeing more "super narrow" (not just narrow) bars in all levels in all events.
I think most Madison riders still prefer a flat horizontal grip. But it's a question of being able to adapt to inconveniences for a perceived advantage. A narrower bar is often preferable in a Madison in order to do a proper throw where you want the two riders as close as possible. That 2nd photo is pretty text book. It's not so good if it cuts down on stability by decreasing reach or makes the grip on the tops questionable. I've adapted to doing madison's on my scattos despite the questionable top section, but I would definitely prefer a different shape near the stem. It's an interesting idea.
tobukog is offline  
Old 11-13-17, 05:20 AM
  #1390  
seau grateau
Senior Member
 
seau grateau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: PHL
Posts: 9,944

Bikes: Litespeed Catalyst, IRO Rob Roy, All City Big Block

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1328 Post(s)
Liked 385 Times in 186 Posts
Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Another example: Felt introduced a high-end left-side drive bike for the Olympics, going against the meta of right-side drive. This did not seem to change the meta as there haven't been a big shift to LSD with cranks or hubs...but people wondered about it.
I remember reading that they were using a more narrow hub spacing on those bikes too, but haven't heard anything about that since.
seau grateau is offline  
Old 11-13-17, 07:55 AM
  #1391  
topflightpro
Senior Member
 
topflightpro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,484
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1822 Post(s)
Liked 622 Times in 392 Posts
Originally Posted by tobukog View Post
I think most Madison riders still prefer a flat horizontal grip. But it's a question of being able to adapt to inconveniences for a perceived advantage. A narrower bar is often preferable in a Madison in order to do a proper throw where you want the two riders as close as possible. That 2nd photo is pretty text book. It's not so good if it cuts down on stability by decreasing reach or makes the grip on the tops questionable. I've adapted to doing madison's on my scattos despite the questionable top section, but I would definitely prefer a different shape near the stem. It's an interesting idea.
Welcome back.

Did you see there is a Madison clinic at Rock Hill on Nov. 30. If the weather is good, I'm going to go down for it.
topflightpro is offline  
Old 11-13-17, 04:23 PM
  #1392  
Banchad
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 152

Bikes: Planet X Pro Carbon, Dolan FXE, Fuji Transonic

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Looks like Planet X/Selcof are doing scatto knockoff's now.

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/HBSELV...rack-handlebar
Banchad is offline  
Old 11-13-17, 05:54 PM
  #1393  
ruudlaff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 201
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 85 Post(s)
Liked 11 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by Banchad View Post
Looks like Planet X/Selcof are doing scatto knockoff's now.

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/HBSELV...rack-handlebar
Already got them, were on sale at 89 last month. Really like them, ultra stiff
ruudlaff is offline  
Old 11-13-17, 06:53 PM
  #1394  
brawlo
Senior Member
 
brawlo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,201
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 287 Post(s)
Liked 73 Times in 55 Posts
Originally Posted by Banchad View Post
Looks like Planet X/Selcof are doing scatto knockoff's now.

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/HBSELV...rack-handlebar
I don't think I'd really call them a Scatto knock off. Their shape is fairly different in the drops area. The flat aero profile top seems to be about the only thing they share, but they share them with a whole array of other sprint style bars.
brawlo is offline  
Old 11-13-17, 07:10 PM
  #1395  
taras0000
Lapped 3x
 
taras0000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 43.2330941,-79.8022037,17
Posts: 1,723
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 325 Post(s)
Liked 23 Times in 20 Posts
Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
I don't think I'd really call them a Scatto knock off. Their shape is fairly different in the drops area. The flat aero profile top seems to be about the only thing they share, but they share them with a whole array of other sprint style bars.
I thought LOOK copy when I first saw them, the first gen LOOK sprint bars at least.
taras0000 is offline  
Old 11-13-17, 07:17 PM
  #1396  
pierrej
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 152
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 75 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Originally Posted by tobukog View Post
I think most Madison riders still prefer a flat horizontal grip. But it's a question of being able to adapt to inconveniences for a perceived advantage. A narrower bar is often preferable in a Madison in order to do a proper throw where you want the two riders as close as possible. That 2nd photo is pretty text book. It's not so good if it cuts down on stability by decreasing reach or makes the grip on the tops questionable. I've adapted to doing madison's on my scattos despite the questionable top section, but I would definitely prefer a different shape near the stem. It's an interesting idea.
You'll know more than I on the subject, but I'd imagine as long as you can fit a hand next to he stem there should be enough room for the throw.
Even with the narrow top on my nitto's I could probably make do, though I'd prefer the oversized alpina top or a lot of tape for my big mits
pierrej is offline  
Old 11-13-17, 10:39 PM
  #1397  
JimiMimni
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 112
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by seau grateau View Post
I remember reading that they were using a more narrow hub spacing on those bikes too, but haven't heard anything about that since.
They do have goofy spacing. If you actually want/can pony up the money for the FRD version, it's sold with two wheelsets (training/racing) because of said proprietary hubs. They bike is pursuit only, according to everything I've heard with regards to riding it. They're apparently too soft for bunch races.
JimiMimni is offline  
Old 11-14-17, 06:50 AM
  #1398  
queerpunk
aka mattio
 
queerpunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,583

Bikes: yes

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 343 Post(s)
Liked 56 Times in 34 Posts
Originally Posted by JimiMimni View Post
They do have goofy spacing. If you actually want/can pony up the money for the FRD version, it's sold with two wheelsets (training/racing) because of said proprietary hubs. They bike is pursuit only, according to everything I've heard with regards to riding it. They're apparently too soft for bunch races.
I remember Felt saying that and thinking, how soft can they really be? They do need to handle starts without flexing the BB into the wheels, and Valente/Dygart/Hammer/Catlin ride their first kilo faster than a lot of racers can kilo. And Lea rode one in the Olympics too - he's huge, and powerful. I'm sure they made some sacrifices in the design, but I'm guessing the "TT use only" designation is as much due to Felt not making a stem for it that accommodates a drop bar as it is whatever stiffness/narrowness tradeoffs they made. TT integration only.

All speculation though. Haven't heard feedback from any of its users.

Last edited by queerpunk; 11-14-17 at 07:13 AM.
queerpunk is offline  
Old 11-14-17, 11:18 AM
  #1399  
Poppit
Senior Member
 
Poppit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Nottingham, UK
Posts: 271
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 111 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Sir Chris Hoy interview: GB icon on the cut-throat world of elite sport, personal sacrifices and life after the track - Mirror Online
Poppit is offline  
Old 11-14-17, 02:51 PM
  #1400  
carleton
Elitist
Thread Starter
 
carleton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 15,956
Mentioned: 88 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1382 Post(s)
Liked 88 Times in 73 Posts
In the book Heroes Villains and Velodromes , Hoy is quoted as saying that he trains even on Christmas day. Why? Because he assumes that his competition is taking the day off and every little advantage helps. That's the state of mind that it takes to accomplish what he's accomplished.

Team GB even had a Sports Psychologist on staff to help the team deal with the mental stress of training, racing, and personal life. It worked. I believe his name was Dr. Steve Peters.
carleton is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.