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Old 12-19-17, 05:06 AM
  #4676  
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I don't have experience with this method, but I've glued a good number of tubulars, here's what I think. (take for granted there is some speculation)

In theory, if you were methodical in doing it and you used good glue, you'd probably be alright riding a tyre glued like this on "normal" roads or on a keirin track. (pretty shallow banks) In my mind, I'm gluing my tyres with the "worst case" scenario in mind, not "normal conditions."

I wouldn't want to glue my cyclocross tyres like that. (or my track tyres that I expected to bomb sharply off the top of the boards on)

*I do think most people (myself included) use much more glue than is necessary (I glue my own 2 coats on the tyre, 2 on the rim with a days drying between each coat, then a final wet layer on the rim, mount, although I've done 1/2 coats within a day when in a hurry for a race before with no ill effect. *for a road tt)
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Old 12-19-17, 06:44 AM
  #4677  
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Regarding pump for high pressure tubular, the best design I found is the Silca pumps. The cheapest and travel friendly Pista work wells and they also make a locking adapter for disc called the hiro side-lever chuck. They are not cheap but with parts still available for 25+ year old silca pump, it is a decent long term investment.
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Old 12-19-17, 08:06 AM
  #4678  
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I have an old Silca pump. It has been a nightmare. I've replaced the gasket more times than I can count, and it never works well.

But I realize my experience tends to be the exception.
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Old 12-19-17, 08:07 AM
  #4679  
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Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post
https://youtu.be/URZEK3-DIfQ
So he is Keirin racer in Korea so he speaks in Korean, but my question is do you think this is save way of glueing tubular tire?
He only put one heavy coat of glue and wait 24 hours.
He uses this method to glue his race wheel and other.
What do you think about this?

His step.
1) remove old tire
2) stretch tire
3) put tire
4) put really heavy coat of glue without removing the tire
5) pump the tire
6) clean excess glue with finger
7) look for gaps and add glue
8) wait a day
There is some more discussion about tubular gluing in the track tires sticky, I think.

The common dogma I was taught regarding track tubs is that high pressure in the tires does as much, or more, than the glue.

I personally do two layers on rim and tire with a wet mounting layer. I run through the whole process in one sitting. Normally I do a wheel, a tire, the other wheel, and the other tire. By the time I've come back to the start of the cycle, the first layer of glue is dry and I apply another. When the second round is finished, it's mounting time. This doesn't count stretching the tires, which is either superfluous, or SUPER necessary (Continentals!! ).

Several others I've spoken with wait entire days between layers, and when I worked in a shop this is how we glued tubs. This is one of those black voodoo things in gluing tubs. There isn't any real hard evidence on the effect of waiting vs. not.

Do good work, make your layers nice and even, and you should be fine. Treat it like painting a picture, not just slobbing glue on.
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Old 12-19-17, 11:54 AM
  #4680  
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I am very happy using the Lezyne pump for my track tires. It gets and holds 180 psi without problem.
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Old 12-19-17, 04:44 PM
  #4681  
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I use an old Silica pump that I put the Hirame head on: Hirame / Kuwahara pump head / (Presta/French) adapter + 3 pack of seals - Staff Picks
The pump easily reaches 200psi, and the head stays put. This head has the added benefit of fitting in the hole in my disc. No more crack pipe.
PI
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Old 12-19-17, 06:56 PM
  #4682  
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Originally Posted by rensho3 View Post
I am very happy using the Lezyne pump for my track tires. It gets and holds 180 psi without problem.
I have used my Lezyne high pressure pump (220 psi) for around ten years. It has a screw-on chuck.
The o-ring seal on my pump still good (although I have replaced the seal using a Home Depot o-ring a couple of times on a Lezyne pump at my local track but then maybe it gets lots of abuse).
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Old 12-19-17, 10:36 PM
  #4683  
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Thank you.
I think I will justbstick with multiple layers of glue.
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Old 12-19-17, 11:13 PM
  #4684  
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Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post
Thank you.
I think I will justbstick with multiple layers of glue.
Gycho77, Did you ever take delivery of your custom track frame and if so how do you like it?
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Old 12-19-17, 11:51 PM
  #4685  
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Originally Posted by 700wheel View Post
Gycho77, Did you ever take delivery of your custom track frame and if so how do you like it?
Oh...
beause I donít have that much time I just decided to buy Dixie Flyer.
But he will be preparing for NAHBS but not this year.
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Old 12-20-17, 02:45 AM
  #4686  
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Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post
Oh...
beause I donít have that much time I just decided to buy Dixie Flyer.
But he will be preparing for NAHBS but not this year.
Let's see that Dixie then!
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Old 12-20-17, 09:56 AM
  #4687  
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Here's a thing I'm struggling with right now. I think the power is there to do much better times for 200m and 500m (I can hold 1000w for 20s, 850w for 30s), but I really struggle getting cadences over 110-120 in race gears. For example, I'm hitting turn 3 in 500m starts at 118rpm, but that's just not fast enough. I have a similar problem in 200m starts: I jump from 90-95rpm, but I just can't get it up over 120 by the time I'm hitting corner 1.

So how do you translate power into *speed* and cadence in race gears?

(And yes I have a coach, and yes we've talked about this...but I'd like more help.)
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Old 12-20-17, 10:07 AM
  #4688  
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That's pretty common when roadies transition to track racing. My coach rolls his eyes at training power ("yeah, anyone can do XXX watts at 60rpm - the hard part is doing it at 120 rpm"), and closer to the season, we do a lot of work to make sure that I'm putting down power at speed. We call it "activation."

You have a few other options. You can use big gears - that's what a lot of people do. The drawback to big gears is that while they tend to be good for qualifying, they can be pretty rough in sprint rounds.

But really you just need to train power application at those cadences. There are a few components of this. You need to be generally comfortable at higher cadences, and this comes from prolonged intervals at higher cadences than you'd ever do on the road. Then, you need to have the neuromuscular ability to apply lower torque faster faster - and that means overcadence spinups. The final piece of the puzzle is pulling those together into actual power application at the cadences. A lot of sprint work is focused just on hitting cadence targets; once the max creeps up, it's time to gear up. That's when you're truly applying power at race-appropriate cadences.

This is the time when I point out that if your coach doesn't understand the specific demands of track racing then you might not be getting what you need given your goals. I've seen road coaches try to train track athletes and grope blindly in the dark because there is stuff that they just don't get.
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Old 12-20-17, 10:17 AM
  #4689  
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(FWIW, these power numbers are usually 120-130rpm)

Oh my coach is track-specific and is decently well-known. We're doing all the things you list.

I can put down good power at 150rpm, and all my power PBs are 120-130rpm. But I struggle getting past 120rpm when I have to go spin up in a single gear (without shifting on the road bike, for example). My peak cadence is 210rpm, so the issue isn't that I can't hit cadences with low power. We do a lot of sprints where I roll at 20mph at 90-110rpm then sprint aiming to peak at 150-160rpm and then hold it for however long (often 10s but up to 20s).

Last edited by southernfox; 12-20-17 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 12-20-17, 10:24 AM
  #4690  
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
Here's a thing I'm struggling with right now. I think the power is there to do much better times for 200m and 500m (I can hold 1000w for 20s, 850w for 30s), but I really struggle getting cadences over 110-120 in race gears. For example, I'm hitting turn 3 in 500m starts at 118rpm, but that's just not fast enough. I have a similar problem in 200m starts: I jump from 90-95rpm, but I just can't get it up over 120 by the time I'm hitting corner 1.

So how do you translate power into *speed* and cadence in race gears?

(And yes I have a coach, and yes we've talked about this...but I'd like more help.)
Train to cadence and increase gears as you go. Don't put on your race gear for next summer and train until you spin it fast enough.

As you advance as a racer: Cadences stay the same. Gears get bigger.

This happens at a meso level (the gears you use in your winter and early season training phases into your race season and your peak) AND at the macro level (as you become a local, regional, national, and international standout).

I can show you that cadences used in the Team Sprint or 500M at a local velodrome championship are the same that are used at the World Championships...across genders.

The gears that top racers use at the beginning of the season are smaller than those they use at the peak of the season...but the cadences are the same.

Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
That's pretty common when roadies transition to track racing. My coach rolls his eyes at training power ("yeah, anyone can do XXX watts at 60rpm - the hard part is doing it at 120 rpm"), and closer to the season, we do a lot of work to make sure that I'm putting down power at speed. We call it "activation."

You have a few other options. You can use big gears - that's what a lot of people do. The drawback to big gears is that while they tend to be good for qualifying, they can be pretty rough in sprint rounds.

But really you just need to train power application at those cadences. There are a few components of this. You need to be generally comfortable at higher cadences, and this comes from prolonged intervals at higher cadences than you'd ever do on the road. Then, you need to have the neuromuscular ability to apply lower torque faster faster - and that means overcadence spinups. The final piece of the puzzle is pulling those together into actual power application at the cadences. A lot of sprint work is focused just on hitting cadence targets; once the max creeps up, it's time to gear up. That's when you're truly applying power at race-appropriate cadences.

This is the time when I point out that if your coach doesn't understand the specific demands of track racing then you might not be getting what you need given your goals. I've seen road coaches try to train track athletes and grope blindly in the dark because there is stuff that they just don't get.
+1 on everything, especially about the coach.

As mentioned before, a lot of road coaches think that training for track is easy, "How hard can it be?! They don't even have hills or gears." There is so much nuance.

Last edited by carleton; 12-20-17 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 12-20-17, 10:26 AM
  #4691  
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So maybe that's an idea: train on smaller gears hitting the cadences.
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Old 12-20-17, 10:28 AM
  #4692  
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Ah, gotcha. Yeah, that's a different issue that what I interpreted at first.

You'll need to train to apply power through a cadence range, and you can do that on the track or on the road with rolling accelerations that start at 60rpm and take you above 120. You'll have to find the right gear that gets you what you want. The important part here, too, is steady power duration more so than spikes; you need to be able to still be applying that peak power 10+ seconds into the effort so that you can continue to accelerate past your former stall points. For top-end speed, the power you do at 15-20 seconds in to the effort is a lot more important than the first 5 or 10 seconds.

Separately but related, I was reading a report from an acquaintance who was training with Jair Tjon En Fa - doing solo top end accelerations followed by dropping behind the motor and accelerating again. Jair would hit 70kph on his own and then accelerate up to 90kph behind the motor.

Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
So maybe that's an idea: train on smaller gears hitting the cadences.
A mix of smaller gears and full gearing - the top-end cadence isn't the problem, it's getting there after spending time applying power through the lower ranges. So improve the power application through that range (full gearing), AND improve your ability to climb out of it (undergearing).

As with a lot of sprint work, this should be done when fresh, with full rest between, and absolutely stop an effort once you start bogging down. Max power only. Do these wkos 2x/week and in a month, PBs will start pouring from the sky*.






*results not guaranteed.
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Old 12-20-17, 10:32 AM
  #4693  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
Ah, gotcha. Yeah, that's a different issue that what I interpreted at first.

You'll need to train to apply power through a cadence range, and you can do that on the track or on the road with rolling accelerations that start at 60rpm and take you above 120. You'll have to find the right gear that gets you what you want. The important part here, too, is steady power duration more so than spikes; you need to be able to still be applying that peak power 10+ seconds into the effort so that you can continue to accelerate past your former stall points. For top-end speed, the power you do at 15-20 seconds in to the effort is a lot more important than the first 5 or 10 seconds.

Separately but related, I was reading a report from an acquaintance who was training with Jair Tjon En Fa - doing solo top end accelerations followed by dropping behind the motor and accelerating again. Jair would hit 70kph on his own and then accelerate up to 90kph behind the motor.
Most of my long power PRs are during standing starts, and I'm really consistently applying power the whole time until I hit my max cadence, then power drops to 500-600w for the rest of the effort.

Also: holy sh**.
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Old 12-20-17, 10:33 AM
  #4694  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
A mix of smaller gears and full gearing - the top-end cadence isn't the problem, it's getting there after spending time applying power through the lower ranges. So improve the power application through that range (full gearing), AND improve your ability to climb out of it (undergearing).

As with a lot of sprint work, this should be done when fresh, with full rest between, and absolutely stop an effort once you start bogging down. Max power only. Do these wkos 2x/week and in a month, PBs will start pouring from the sky*.






*results not guaranteed.
That is EXACTLY the issue, yes. And I do the efforts fresh, usually doing 4-6 with 15-20min rests between. And as soon as I see peak power decline ~10% I shut it down and go home.
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Old 12-20-17, 10:38 AM
  #4695  
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Here's a follow on to Southernfox's line of questions:

Start with smaller gearing, hit cadence and then start to build gearing as the season progresses. I get that part. However, what is the best way to increase gearing? Start with a small chainring and reduce sprocket size (say 48/15 then go to 47/14 - 86 to 88 inches), or leave the sprocket alone and increase the chainring size (48/15 to 50/15 and up)? I'm sure it has a lot to do with physiology, but is there a rule of thumb?
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Old 12-20-17, 10:41 AM
  #4696  
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
Most of my long power PRs are during standing starts, and I'm really consistently applying power the whole time until I hit my max cadence, then power drops to 500-600w for the rest of the effort.

Also: holy sh**.
Long power PRs that have the standing start are simply skewed by the power spike. You wouldn't see the same avg over time if you did a rolling or flying start, which is a better metric.

Cadence is the best metric.

Cadence is king. ALL HAIL CADENCE!!
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Old 12-20-17, 10:46 AM
  #4697  
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
Most of my long power PRs are during standing starts, and I'm really consistently applying power the whole time until I hit my max cadence, then power drops to 500-600w for the rest of the effort.

Also: holy sh**.
if i were in your shoes i'd fine tune my gearing so that i could drag out that max power as long as possible, and shut it off when the power drops; aim for stretching the duration of that length of max power. a lot of people don't do full efforts until race day. till then it's all about the components.

Originally Posted by sarals View Post
Here's a follow on to Southernfox's line of questions:

Start with smaller gearing, hit cadence and then start to build gearing as the season progresses. I get that part. However, what is the best way to increase gearing? Start with a small chainring and reduce sprocket size (say 48/15 then go to 47/14 - 86 to 88 inches), or leave the sprocket alone and increase the chainring size (48/15 to 50/15 and up)? I'm sure it has a lot to do with physiology, but is there a rule of thumb?
at conventional combinations, 1 chainring tooth is a much smaller difference than 1 sprocket tooth. if you want to REALLY finetune the differences, change both. a gearing chart can help you see what gear combinations make how much of a difference over where you started.
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Old 12-20-17, 10:48 AM
  #4698  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Long power PRs that have the standing start are simply skewed by the power spike. You wouldn't see the same avg over time if you did a rolling or flying start, which is a better metric.

Cadence is the best metric.

Cadence is king. ALL HAIL CADENCE!!
My 30s PB was a hill sprint (out of the saddle at 120rpm the whole way). I don't seem to have huge peaks (my pmax is only 1400). *shrug*
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Old 12-20-17, 10:58 AM
  #4699  
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Originally Posted by queerpunk View Post
if i were in your shoes i'd fine tune my gearing so that i could drag out that max power as long as possible, and shut it off when the power drops; aim for stretching the duration of that length of max power. a lot of people don't do full efforts until race day. till then it's all about the components.



at conventional combinations, 1 chainring tooth is a much smaller difference than 1 sprocket tooth. if you want to REALLY finetune the differences, change both. a gearing chart can help you see what gear combinations make how much of a difference over where you started.
Thanks! My question should be that I'm curious as to what would be, well, gentler progression. Is it "easier" to spin up a smaller chainring vs. a larger one? From my RPE point of view, the few times I rode a 48T (15 sprocket) and then bumped to a 50T in the same workout (simulated match sprint rolling jumps with 100M sprints) my cadence was slightly lower with the 50T but I felt "torquier", if you know what I mean. I'm asking as an older athlete, of course.
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Old 12-20-17, 11:11 AM
  #4700  
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
My 30s PB was a hill sprint (out of the saddle at 120rpm the whole way). I don't seem to have huge peaks (my pmax is only 1400). *shrug*
I wouldn't compare any metrics (speed, power, cadence) from road workouts to track workouts.

Indeed, progress is progress. Numbers going up are always good.

I'm not sure you'd ever do 30s at 120RPM on the track.

Not to mention road bike crank length, power meter differences, terrain, hoods, etc...There are a lot of factors.

A power meter (or simply speed and cadence meter) on the track is a lot more controlled environment. I wouldn't expect the same numbers on the track....ask anyone who's done a Kilo on a road bike on the road then a Kilo the track
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