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Old 12-20-17, 11:34 AM
  #4701  
southernfox
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Still waiting for the f'ing Vector 3 pedals to be available from Garmin directly (b/c they're giving me a discount). Right now I don't have power on the track, so I just have no idea how things are transferring.

And I'm in Charleston There is no 'terrain' lol.
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Old 12-20-17, 11:57 AM
  #4702  
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Power Meter and tri spoke for Fuji Track Elite

I have a 2017 Fuji Track Elite. Two questions here

1. Does anyone have this bike with the SRM Track Science Power meter installed? Any observations, concerns, tips?

2. I have a Zipp 900 track disc on this bike. Any recommendations on a complementary front tri spoke?

Thanks!
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Old 12-20-17, 01:29 PM
  #4703  
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Originally Posted by southernfox View Post
Still waiting for the f'ing Vector 3 pedals to be available from Garmin directly (b/c they're giving me a discount). Right now I don't have power on the track, so I just have no idea how things are transferring.

And I'm in Charleston There is no 'terrain' lol.
Yes there is. The banking on Giordana.
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Old 12-20-17, 02:55 PM
  #4704  
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So Southern Fox, how tall are you and what length cranks are you running?
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Old 12-20-17, 05:14 PM
  #4705  
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Originally Posted by tobukog View Post
So Southern Fox, how tall are you and what length cranks are you running?
6'0" 195lbs (that's up from my roadie weight of 170-175). 165mm.
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Old 12-20-17, 06:35 PM
  #4706  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
I have a 2017 Fuji Track Elite. Two questions here

1. Does anyone have this bike with the SRM Track Science Power meter installed? Any observations, concerns, tips?

2. I have a Zipp 900 track disc on this bike. Any recommendations on a complementary front tri spoke?

Thanks!
I don't remember where, but there is a link on one of these mega threads to a discussion about spoked front wheels vs. tri/four/five spoke wheels. 808s are faster than five spokes. Granted that's from a former Zipp engineer, but this discussion was long after he left the company and he was relating the data they gathered during testing.
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Old 12-21-17, 05:32 AM
  #4707  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
I have a 2017 Fuji Track Elite. Two questions here

1. Does anyone have this bike with the SRM Track Science Power meter installed? Any observations, concerns, tips?

2. I have a Zipp 900 track disc on this bike. Any recommendations on a complementary front tri spoke?

Thanks!
1.) Kind of. I've got a wired model on my Track Elite. Don't know of any issues you'd have with a new one (although I'd suggest against the Rotor model because...well I hate Rotor... ymmv on that.) I 3D printed a behind the saddle holder, but you can also buy one for ~$70 or so... or just use the handlebar mount on a piece of cork stuck to the saddle rail if you want to go ghetto.

2.) I went to A2 last year, and on the same trip helped test an aerostick product (one of the big ones coming to market in 2018) at Rock Hill. I tested an H3 (clincher, 20mm Supersonic) a Jet9 (C2 model clincher, 23mm Supersonic) and an Ebay iO clone (measured 20.5mm by my caliper, with a 19mm Vitt Pista Evo)

The iO clone was fastest on the velodrome by about 5 watt. It was slower by 2 watts in the tunnel (at 0 and 5 sweeps) Both were faster than the Jet9, but all 3 were close. You could read from that that on the track the almost certainly lower rolling resistance from the Evo Pista created a gap the aerostick picked up as a drop in CdA... although that's just guessing.

*just my speculation... if you want the "best" wheel for the front, it's probably (excluding a disc I assume) either a RIO iO with the wider rim profile, or an old H3/H3D tubular. < All of those matched to the right tyre of course. Depends a bit on what yaw you see and how stiff you want the wheel to be. A deep spoked wheel would also be fast of course... tough to know the fork/hub/wheel interactions without having it all there to test a bunch to eliminate the variables.
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Old 12-21-17, 08:18 AM
  #4708  
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
1.) Kind of. I've got a wired model on my Track Elite. Don't know of any issues you'd have with a new one (although I'd suggest against the Rotor model because...well I hate Rotor... ymmv on that.) I 3D printed a behind the saddle holder, but you can also buy one for ~$70 or so... or just use the handlebar mount on a piece of cork stuck to the saddle rail if you want to go ghetto.

2.) I went to A2 last year, and on the same trip helped test an aerostick product (one of the big ones coming to market in 2018) at Rock Hill. I tested an H3 (clincher, 20mm Supersonic) a Jet9 (C2 model clincher, 23mm Supersonic) and an Ebay iO clone (measured 20.5mm by my caliper, with a 19mm Vitt Pista Evo)

The iO clone was fastest on the velodrome by about 5 watt. It was slower by 2 watts in the tunnel (at 0 and 5 sweeps) Both were faster than the Jet9, but all 3 were close. You could read from that that on the track the almost certainly lower rolling resistance from the Evo Pista created a gap the aerostick picked up as a drop in CdA... although that's just guessing.

*just my speculation... if you want the "best" wheel for the front, it's probably (excluding a disc I assume) either a RIO iO with the wider rim profile, or an old H3/H3D tubular. < All of those matched to the right tyre of course. Depends a bit on what yaw you see and how stiff you want the wheel to be. A deep spoked wheel would also be fast of course... tough to know the fork/hub/wheel interactions without having it all there to test a bunch to eliminate the variables.
Did you happen to test a Zipp 808?
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Old 12-21-17, 08:32 AM
  #4709  
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No, honestly I tested wheels very quickly, I had figured A2 would have a front disc I could borrow/try, but they didn't... so it was really just a quick run through what I had with me (and the only reason I tested them was to compare to the velodrome results, as changing wheels in the tunnel eats up a LOT of time/money) I was more interested in skinsuits, helmets and hand positions.

...but you can figure a Jet9 and an 808 are pretty dang close by pretty much every independent test done. Depending on what generation 808 it is, it might be slightly better/worse on certain days/tracks. At really low (inside) yaw you'd expect an old, pre dimpled 808 with a super narrow tyre to be faster than a firecrest. Outside, it's probably a lot closer depending on the day, but you'd still want a pretty narrow (21-23) tyre on the firecrest for best results. I think with good tyres anything mentioned is going to be within a handful of watts at most from it's good day to bad day from the best on that day, but ymmv of course.
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Old 12-21-17, 08:53 AM
  #4710  
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Thanks!

You mention that all 3 wheels were close. I know we all want the absolute best...then we look down into our wallets and reconsider. Some of these wheels are several thousands of dollars apart in price.

If you were to make a suggestion as to what would be the best value or "bang for the buck", what might you suggest?
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Old 12-21-17, 09:26 AM
  #4711  
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Dang, loaded question. If it were road I'd say H3 no question... but I've read it's too flexy for track. (No idea, although I believe that was the reason for Mavic creating the iO) A deep laced wheel like an 808 is more predictable in gusts of wind and you wouldn't have the stiffness issue... you'd also have a slightly wider range of tyres you could pick. (if you pick an H3 or a non-Rio iO you pretty much have to run a 19mm Vittoria or suffer some serious aero consequences.) Unfortunately, you lose some bling with a laced wheel
It'd really depend on the rider I think. An 808/Stinger9 is probably best for a sprinter. An H3 starts making more sense for longer pursuit stuff.

Good news is you can buy any of the fastest wheels (minus an iO or a disc) for ~$400 or less. Triathletes dump tubular race wheels for nothing all the time. 404 is another fine choice that is close to the deeper wheels at most yaw angles... but you do have to fight with the cyclocross guys for the tubulars.

Last edited by Morelock; 12-21-17 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 12-21-17, 09:37 AM
  #4712  
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
1.) Kind of. I've got a wired model on my Track Elite. Don't know of any issues you'd have with a new one (although I'd suggest against the Rotor model because...well I hate Rotor... ymmv on that.) I 3D printed a behind the saddle holder, but you can also buy one for ~$70 or so... or just use the handlebar mount on a piece of cork stuck to the saddle rail if you want to go ghetto.

2.) I went to A2 last year, and on the same trip helped test an aerostick product (one of the big ones coming to market in 2018) at Rock Hill. I tested an H3 (clincher, 20mm Supersonic) a Jet9 (C2 model clincher, 23mm Supersonic) and an Ebay iO clone (measured 20.5mm by my caliper, with a 19mm Vitt Pista Evo)

The iO clone was fastest on the velodrome by about 5 watt. It was slower by 2 watts in the tunnel (at 0 and 5 sweeps) Both were faster than the Jet9, but all 3 were close. You could read from that that on the track the almost certainly lower rolling resistance from the Evo Pista created a gap the aerostick picked up as a drop in CdA... although that's just guessing.

*just my speculation... if you want the "best" wheel for the front, it's probably (excluding a disc I assume) either a RIO iO with the wider rim profile, or an old H3/H3D tubular. < All of those matched to the right tyre of course. Depends a bit on what yaw you see and how stiff you want the wheel to be. A deep spoked wheel would also be fast of course... tough to know the fork/hub/wheel interactions without having it all there to test a bunch to eliminate the variables.
Cool, thanks! 3D holder? I assume this is for SRM's own power head unit? Which I won't be needing. I use the Wahoo Elmnt.

On wheels, my bike already has the deep front wheel on it, made by Oval, which I believe is a re-branded Reynolds. I also have a pair of Zipp 808 Firecrests on my TT bike....but I'm not sure if that front wheel will work on my track bike. Different width? I'll experiment. Too bad Zipp doesn't make a front tri spoke wheel! They used to make a front disc wheel, but they discontinued that.
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Old 12-21-17, 10:06 AM
  #4713  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
On wheels, my bike already has the deep front wheel on it, made by Oval, which I believe is a re-branded Reynolds. I also have a pair of Zipp 808 Firecrests on my TT bike....but I'm not sure if that front wheel will work on my track bike. Different width? I'll experiment. Too bad Zipp doesn't make a front tri spoke wheel! They used to make a front disc wheel, but they discontinued that.
Road wheels will work fine on your track bike, so you can use your 808 if you want. (I've been running my road 404 on the front of my track bike.) You will need to purchase a bolt-on skewer though.

Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
Dang, loaded question. If it were road I'd say H3 no question... but I've read it's too flexy for track. (No idea, although I believe that was the reason for Mavic creating the iO) A deep laced wheel like an 808 is more predictable in gusts of wind and you wouldn't have the stiffness issue... you'd also have a slightly wider range of tyres you could pick. (if you pick an H3 or a non-Rio iO you pretty much have to run a 19mm Vittoria or suffer some serious aero consequences.) Unfortunately, you lose some bling with a laced wheel
It'd really depend on the rider I think. An 808/Stinger9 is probably best for a sprinter. An H3 starts making more sense for longer pursuit stuff.

Good news is you can buy any of the fastest wheels (minus an iO or a disc) for ~$400 or less. Triathletes dump tubular race wheels for nothing all the time. 404 is another fine choice that is close to the deeper wheels at most yaw angles... but you do have to fight with the cyclocross guys for the tubulars.
You mentioned that you tested a knock-off IO. I'm wondering how close it actually is to a real IO.
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Old 12-21-17, 10:49 AM
  #4714  
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You mentioned that you tested a knock-off IO. I'm wondering how close it actually is to a real IO.
I've got my own thoughts on that... but no hard evidence to back it up.

I will say I didn't just buy any random 5 spoke off ebay. I found a seller that would communicate and got certain measurements/pictures before I bought. There are some really bad 3 and 5 spokes out there, worse than just a box rim bad.
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Old 12-21-17, 10:52 AM
  #4715  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
Cool, thanks! 3D holder? I assume this is for SRM's own power head unit? Which I won't be needing. I use the Wahoo Elmnt.

On wheels, my bike already has the deep front wheel on it, made by Oval, which I believe is a re-branded Reynolds. I also have a pair of Zipp 808 Firecrests on my TT bike....but I'm not sure if that front wheel will work on my track bike. Different width? I'll experiment. Too bad Zipp doesn't make a front tri spoke wheel! They used to make a front disc wheel, but they discontinued that.
Yeah, for a PCV. You'll still need to mount the Elmnt out of sight for races though.

The stock Oval's are fine wheels, nothing wrong with them.

Zipp actually did make a trispoke for a while in the late 80's early 90's (google zipp 3000) but the design was found to be worse than the specialized/dupont design. (And Zipp's own spoked wheels)
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Old 12-21-17, 11:19 AM
  #4716  
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I find my H3C tubular wheel is adequately stiff on the track, I'm an enduro but I'm not small at 190lbs. I got it for $250 from a triathlete.

I currently use a 900 disc with the H3C and 22mm EVO CL tires on both. Recently picked up a 808 firecrest front and a Super 9 Disc rear so might shuffle some tires around and get a 19 for the H3C. Then the next question is when should I use the H3 and when should I use the 808? Lol
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Old 12-21-17, 11:42 AM
  #4717  
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5W is less than 1% for a given effort. Probably less than 0.5%. As someone noted before during a similar discussion, that's within a standard margin of error. So, I imagine that for scientific purposes, they could all be considered identical. And the differentiating factors being other things than aerodynamics (e.g. stiffness, tire options, price, aesthetics).

I'm sure that between a $1,000 wheel and a $4,000 wheel, one could probably buy the $1,000 wheel and use that extra $3,000 to find more than 5W somewhere else
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Old 12-21-17, 11:44 AM
  #4718  
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
Yeah, for a PCV. You'll still need to mount the Elmnt out of sight for races though.

The stock Oval's are fine wheels, nothing wrong with them.

Zipp actually did make a trispoke for a while in the late 80's early 90's (google zipp 3000) but the design was found to be worse than the specialized/dupont design. (And Zipp's own spoked wheels)
Very interesting. I have a saved online search for one of those old Zipp front discs...just waiting on the edge of my seat for one to pop up! In the meantime, I may not worry about a tri spoke, or maybe I'll just find a used one on eBay since my 808 is just fine. I just ordered the SRM track science meter......Christmas present to myself! Sometimes I love being single ;-)
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Old 12-21-17, 01:38 PM
  #4719  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post

I'm sure that between a $1,000 wheel and a $4,000 wheel, one could probably buy the $1,000 wheel and use that extra $3,000 to find more than 5W somewhere else
Saving watts is a sickness/addiction. I've spent the last 5 or 6 years (and who knows how much $$) trying to find and add all those 1-2w up And after that time the only thing I know for sure is I don't know crap about it.
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Old 12-21-17, 03:07 PM
  #4720  
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
Saving watts is a sickness/addiction. I've spent the last 5 or 6 years (and who knows how much $$) trying to find and add all those 1-2w up And after that time the only thing I know for sure is I don't know crap about it.
Yeah, the bike industry thrives on it.
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Old 12-21-17, 06:50 PM
  #4721  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Road wheels will work fine on your track bike, so you can use your 808 if you want. (I've been running my road 404 on the front of my track bike.) You will need to purchase a bolt-on skewer though.



You mentioned that you tested a knock-off IO. I'm wondering how close it actually is to a real IO.
I just noticed R&A Cycles has one 2011 Mavic IO Track tubular 5 spoke for $2300. Normally $3999. Still obscenely pricey.
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Old 12-22-17, 12:25 PM
  #4722  
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Miche Supertype SPX5 Track Wheels

Anyone have any experience with the Miche Supertype SPX5 Track Wheels?

More info here: SUPERTYPE SPX5 - Wheels - Pista - Products
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Old 12-22-17, 12:45 PM
  #4723  
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aerodynamically, that Miche looks terrible. More aerospoke than iO.
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Old 12-22-17, 01:46 PM
  #4724  
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
aerodynamically, that Miche looks terrible. More aerospoke than iO.
The iO is more Aerospoke than the iO

New iO:


Aerospoke:


Older iO:



I prefer the older iO.
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Old 12-22-17, 02:57 PM
  #4725  
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Originally Posted by krispenhartung View Post
Anyone have any experience with the Miche Supertype SPX5 Track Wheels?

More info here: SUPERTYPE SPX5 - Wheels - Pista - Products
You should investigate whether this wheel used threaded cogs or splined cogs?
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