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Power meters for track

Old 08-10-18, 11:00 AM
  #26  
Morelock
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She had never used it before that day? You may need to connect to do the initial setup, but not sure if that'd prevent it from working (all the ones I've ever installed we just did the setup at that time)
You need the app to calibrate (which is possibly just as/more important than the recording itself) but it should pair with a head unit like any other ant+ device.

I've definitely seen DLV track center filled with people staring at their phones
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Old 08-10-18, 11:02 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
She had never used it before that day? You may need to connect to do the initial setup, but not sure if that'd prevent it from working (all the ones I've ever installed we just did the setup at that time)
You need the app to calibrate (which is possibly just as/more important than the recording itself) but it should pair with a head unit like any other ant+ device.

I've definitely seen DLV track center filled with people staring at their phones
I'm not sure if she had used it before or not.

I was helping her and I also couldn't get it to work.
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Old 08-10-18, 11:10 AM
  #28  
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Stages does (did?) have issues with signal at distance from the unit, also on the older ones the back of the battery lid didn't always make a solid connection and let the coin battery move. Mine wouldn't pick up my ANT stick in my computer ~5ft away, but reads it fine sitting underneath the trainer (less than a ft) although it always paired to my head unit (~2ft) fine. Some folk I installed for reported the same at short'ish distances (almost exclusively gen1 devices though)

With the cell service I've gotten every time I've been at DLV I could see it being an issue connecting everything.
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Old 08-10-18, 11:23 AM
  #29  
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Possible that the cell service at DLV (mine is never great) could have been the root cause, I think the stages app works offline however. (not sure) If not, that's a big oversight.

Stages did (does?) have some issues with the battery door causing dropouts, and also some issues with distance from head unit to the PM. I believe those were mainly issues with gen1 models.

I've set up a fair number of them, and they are on the verge of plug and play. The distance from ANT+ device to PM was the primary complaint I've heard.

(Speaking of technical issues that are possibly user error, my original reply had to be moderated? That's a first.)
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Old 08-10-18, 06:18 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Dalai View Post
Symmetry is raised in the discussion not as important for power generation, rather for power measurement when measuring only one side and averaging. Especially when testing has shown that the balance can fluctuate depending on your level of effort.

Years ago, there were reports of a dual sided unit under development at Stages. Can you elaborate why this wasn't followed through to market (I haven't looked at the product recently, so apologies if it has been since released).

PS full disclosure - I am an SRM fanboy and own numerous units both wired and wireless across my bikes including two track units. All bought second hand and all but one still going strong!
Https://store.stagescycling.com/Stages-Power-LR-Dura-Ace-9100-crankset-bi-lateral-dual-power-meter

https://store.stagescycling.com/STAGES-POWER-LR-ULTEGRA-R8000-CRANKSET-WITH-BI-LATERAL-DUAL-POWER-METER

The market gets what the market demands! We're still not sure what benefits having the balance metric gives, aside from reference for each individual.
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Old 08-10-18, 10:17 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I know that the bike industry is competitive. But, straight up ignoring this entire segment of the population is nuts.
I think you're ignoring the fact that this "entire segment of the population" is pretty tiny. If it made financial sense to bring to market all this track-specific gear, companies would be doing it.
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Old 08-10-18, 10:38 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by jsk View Post
I think you're ignoring the fact that this "entire segment of the population" is pretty tiny. If it made financial sense to bring to market all this track-specific gear, companies would be doing it.
Quote for emphasis. There are what, 1,000 regular track racers in the US? That's why "everything track racing is hand-me down." By comparison, there is simply no demand.The examples of national teams looking for equipment is kind of null - national teams don't really buy gear. WE gave the US women prototype L/R systems for Rio and their Felt FRDs. There's some more track-specific success I forgot earlier.

@carelton - With regards to the elite at DLV that couldn't set her Stages up: there isn't set up. Bolt it on, pair it to the Garmin, and pedal until you vomit. I realize that doesn't help now, but on the off chance, all you need to do is pair and ride.

@Morelock - Our app works offline for calibration and viewing tools. You need WiFi for firmware updates. Our battery door issues have been solved with the Gen 2 housing from 2015 onward.Thankfully!
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Old 08-11-18, 11:38 AM
  #33  
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I don't think that we actually use L/R information for anything...at all. Am I wrong?

We can measure which leg is stronger just fine in the gym and use that to 'correct' any imbalance issues (but we mostly don't really worry about that). So single-sided isn't really an issue, I don't think. What matters is that the powermeter is consistent with itself: if you're 'really' putting out 1600 vs 1700w doesn't much matter per se (due to averaging the left if one's left is weaker vs stronger than one's right).
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Old 08-11-18, 12:07 PM
  #34  
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Hmmm. I'm surprised that any serious track racer, either sprint or endurance, would think that any PM that uses accelerometers for cadence (and that includes all pedal-based systems, and PMs like the Stages). Every accelerometer-based PM for which I've analyzed data shows a lag in recording power or cadence or both for standing starts, for low-cadence (which is usually when you have the highest crank torque), and for sudden changes in cadence. You can see that when you analyze the ratio of reported speed to reported cadence. The ratio of reported speed to reported cadence for PMs like the SRM (which uses an old-fashioned reed switch for cadence) when paired with an old-fashioned reed switch speed sensor is much more stable. (I think a corollary is that the new-fangled accelerometer-based speed sensors may also be subject to this, but I haven't seen much data from a bike with a reed switch cadence sensor and an accelerometer speed sensor so I'm not yet sure).

I've worked with a few pursuit racers on their aerodynamic and rolling drag. That's an application where you really do need accuracy across the entire range of speeds and powers that you race at. I've had excellent luck with analyzing data from SRMs; I've had terrible luck with analyzing data from two riders who used Stages. Now when someone asks me for help with measuring their drag, I tell them I can't help them if they used a Stages to collect their data.
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Old 08-11-18, 02:00 PM
  #35  
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For those not familiar with Mr. (Dr.?) Chung’s work: https://anonymous.coward.free.fr/watt...direct-cda.pdf
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Old 08-12-18, 06:38 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
For those not familiar with Mr. (Dr.?) Chung’s work:
When my kid was maybe 14 or 15, she brought home a boy for the first time to meet the 'rents. He called me "Mr. Chung." I clapped him on the back and said, "Please -- call me Professor Chung."
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Old 08-12-18, 04:32 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by RChung View Post
When my kid was maybe 14 or 15, she brought home a boy for the first time to meet the 'rents. He called me "Mr. Chung." I clapped him on the back and said, "Please -- call me Professor Chung."
Hahahaha!

Professor Chung. Got it!
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Old 08-13-18, 02:14 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I've even had conversations with engineers at Wahoo Fitness (coincidentally based here in Atlanta) about their Kicker trainer. With some small adaptations, they could have easily added the ability to, by design, mount track bikes as well.

Nope. Not gonna happen.

Same for CycleOps. I've talked to engineers there, too. ONE small change could open up their spin bikes to elite trackies and compete with the Watt Bike.

Nope.


I know that the bike industry is competitive. But, straight up ignoring this entire segment of the population is nuts.
My Magnus trainer accepts my track bike without any modification. It is designed to accommodate three different rear triangle widths.
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Old 08-13-18, 02:20 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post


My Magnus trainer accepts my track bike without any modification. It is designed to accommodate three different rear triangle widths.
I'm referring to their high-end spin bikes. It's possible to modify these to accept any sprint or aero bars and be fixed gear using parts that they already fabricate in-house. No major retooling needed.




I've done it 3 times including one sitting in my home right now. I bought a gently used CycleOps spin bike for $400 off of craigslist. Had some bits modified. Now it rivals any $3,000 WattBike and will handle +2,000W standing starts and any other workout you can give it...and I can put Scattos or my aerobars of choice on it. It has a 31.8mm stem

The mod that I made can be done with any CycleOps spin bike, from the very old to the brand new.
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Old 08-13-18, 09:04 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I'm referring to their high-end spin bikes. It's possible to modify these to accept any sprint or aero bars and be fixed gear using parts that they already fabricate in-house. No major retooling needed.




I've done it 3 times including one sitting in my home right now. I bought a gently used CycleOps spin bike for $400 off of craigslist. Had some bits modified. Now it rivals any $3,000 WattBike and will handle +2,000W standing starts and any other workout you can give it...and I can put Scattos or my aerobars of choice on it. It has a 31.8mm stem

The mod that I made can be done with any CycleOps spin bike, from the very old to the brand new.
Very cool.
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Old 08-14-18, 01:41 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
The mod that I made can be done with any CycleOps spin bike, from the very old to the brand new.
You keep mentioning the mod...but you don't tell us what it is?
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Old 08-14-18, 02:54 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by ruudlaff View Post
You keep mentioning the mod...but you don't tell us what it is?
I'll get around to making a post one day. It's kinda detailed with a few photos.
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Old 08-14-18, 03:13 AM
  #43  
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Indeed! Nice reply with good information.
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Old 08-14-18, 04:20 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I'll get around to making a post one day. It's kinda detailed with a few photos.
I've seen a few of these pop up the last year or two on the cheap. Considered picking on up because why not, but figured it'd be a hassle to make it work "right."

Maybe I'll snag the next one (and find room for it somewhere)
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Old 08-14-18, 09:06 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
I've seen a few of these pop up the last year or two on the cheap. Considered picking on up because why not, but figured it'd be a hassle to make it work "right."

Maybe I'll snag the next one (and find room for it somewhere)
Even with the stock bars, they are great units. 50lb flywheel, overall heavy as hell (you can't rock it), and the older ones come with fixed rear wheels.

The mods are a bonus.

EDIT: If you happen to buy one with a free hub, you can order a fixed hub conversion kit from CycleOps for a few bucks.

The crank arms are 170mm. I think the BB is FSA splined (I can't recall the name for this system). So, if you are adventurous, you can even change out the cranks to the length of choice. The chain is a 3/32 road chain that should be replaced with a strong single speed chain before doing crazy hard efforts. +1800W on an old road chain is scary.

EDIT 2: If you replace the chain, buy 2 and combine them. A standard chain won't be long enough to travel the circuit from chainring to cog and back. I think the wheelbase (from BB to rear hub) is longer than a normal bike.

Last edited by carleton; 08-14-18 at 09:28 AM.
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Old 08-14-18, 10:09 AM
  #46  
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@carleton your faith in my sprint is both appreciated and comical
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Old 08-14-18, 10:19 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
@carleton your faith in my sprint is both appreciated and comical
YOU CAN DO IT.



Check out this thread I made on the topic: https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cyc...oor-cycle.html
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Old 09-10-18, 11:44 PM
  #48  
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Check this out. Start saving your pennies.
https://powermetercity.com/product/v...k-power-meter/
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Old 09-11-18, 07:05 AM
  #49  
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The Infocrank Track has been out for awhile now. There was a pre-order for $1100 a couple years ago.
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Old 09-11-18, 07:15 AM
  #50  
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I do appreciate that infocrank offers shorter crank lengths... never seen one in the wild though.

Been thinking of picking up a cheapo quarq or p2m and trying the bdop 110-144 converter. Not that I need another pm...
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