Maelochs

Hmmm .... Shimano announces it is Ending a "problem" (obviously not a problem for Shimano, which has been selling its group sets readily and plentifully) and people are choosing to complain about the problem which is ending ... and are then predicting that further problems will arise.

Okay .... maybe somebody needs more fiber?

Shimano never had a problem. The problem was with people who wanted to buy Shimano prrducts to use in ways Shimano did not actually approve (I believe their website used to suggest against mixing group sets. And some people wanted to mix road and MTB .... so if Shimano didn't care whether people could do that, and just wanted to build the best parts it could for each discipline, that is Not a Problem.

Basically, people are saying,. "Shimano is bad because they made business decisions based on better business, and did not design their entire product line to cater to My changing whims."

So now Shimano is unifying ... now all drive train parts should be interchangeable, from 8 to 12 speed, MTB, road, whatever. Now we are getting the good stuff ... and people are still complaining and predicting disaster.

Well ... I don't know about anyone else, but with things like Travel Agents, and a little ingenuity, Most of us found ways to make use of the parts we wanted in the ways we wanted anyway. And whatever ... Shimano sure didn't stop any of us from riding.

So ... the "Problem" was our problem and was easily solved, and now the problem will cease to exist ... and you know what? Shimano doesn't owe anyone of us anything anyway. So long as I can get the parts I need so I can ride my bike ... I Win.

But for those people who want to pee into their own cornflakes ... i will stand well clear. Enjoy breakfast.

himespau 

I have to say that I like Microshift's low end shifters better than Shimanos. 2 different levers for up and down and not involving the brake lever, just works.

seypat

I'd agree. That long, crunchy throw of the brake lever shift is like doing a wrist curl(to me) with a small dumbell. On an all day ride, the right forearm gets so tight I have trouble squeezing the brake lever.

Racing Dan

Sure :-) but...

according to the shimano compatibility chart CUES look like the least compatible group of all. It appears to only play nice with other CUES and linkglide components and looking through the EU Shimano webpage, it decidedly looks like mtb style components, - side swing FDs but no band on or braze on, flat bar shifters but no drop bar shifter, post mount brakes but no flat mount, etc. Maybe I'm just dense, but I don't get what it is supposed to solve or "end". Its just one more line of incompatible products that may solve very specific issues that might as well have been remedied by expanding other lines, mtb or road or both.

https://productinfo.shimano.com/#/co...432&acid=C-435

Maelochs

Not sure what anybody else is saying, but as far as I know CUES isn't yet avaialble and no one really knows what will mix and match.

A couple quotes fro Bikepqacking (https://bikepacking.com/news/shimano-cues/) (I am sure the same media releases were sent to all the major bike sites, this is just the first I saw):

The all-new Shimano CUES drivetrain family consolidates the brand’s 9, 10, and 11-speed component groups into a single system with standardized compatibility, interchangeable parts, and… the same pull ratio (hopefully for road and mountain shifters)! [Emphasis Added]

Same Sprocket Spacing… Same Pull Ratio

The beauty of Shimano CUES is a unified sprocket spacing across the entire lineup, allowing components to be intermixed depending on individual needs and wants. The exciting part for us is that (hopefully) means CUES road shifters will work with CUES mountain bike derailleurs and cassettes. Note that Shimano hasn’t yet released road shifters/levers in the CUES family, but there have been suggestions that they’re coming soon and will ultimately replace the Tiagra, Sora, and Claris drop-bar lines. We should finally get a set of drivetrains that have the same pull ratio on curly bar parts as it does on flat bar components! [Emphasis Added]

Nobody knows the details yet. People seem to think that what Shimano has said means that everything from 9-speed up will be compatible across MTB and road platforms.

You Do Not Know unless you are leaking stolen internal Shimano documents.

And yes, this means that Shimano will be phasing out all the stuff it makes currently, no doubt. Since I have current components, i will eventually be forced to switch. I can live with that ... as I said above, with a planned seven-year roll-out, I might not even be alive to see this stuff .....

Anyone who Chooses to see this as a bad thing ... again,as I said above ... enjoy your breakfast.

cyccommute 

Sorry but I’m not going to give credit to Shimano for fixing their own problem. To use your own analogy, they peed in our Wheaties and are now blowing their own horn on how they are going to rescue us from that horrible incompatibility problem.

Most of us who have solved the problem that they created usually did so by not embracing the problematic systems. The “vast improvements” that Shimano made by introducing incompatibility into their line wasn’t all that vast nor much of an improvement. Granted they are going to fix the problem but let’s not let them off the hook for creating the problem in the first place.

mstateglfr 

You fully agree with what? I posted, and you quoted, that you should move on since its been nearly a decade. Are you agreeing with that? If so- then move on. If that isnt what you fully agree with, what are you fully agreeing with?

I do chuckle at how you emphasize that Shimano caused this, as if they are to blame for a mistake or something. They have done something that is no different from SRAM and Campy.
Not all Campy is compatible thru various speed components. Not all SRAM is compatible thru various speed components. Oh no boo hoo, Shimano went this same route almost 10 years ago and you cant move on.

As for what Shimano will do in 5 years, 9 years, or 25 years- I have no idea, but based on CUES- it looks like there will be more plug-n-play and speed neutral components. So since Shimano is investing in this approach, I would think they would stick with it for at least a handful of years. After that- who knows.
Shimano may go to all wireless shifting in 10 years and leave anything mechanical to the 2nd level brands. None of us know.
It would be foolish for any company that innovates and uses technology to promise and stick to some time frame for what may end up being antiquated technology, just to please some cranky guy in the middle of the country.

Racing Dan

Maelochs

Leaking stolen information? Give me a break! :-)

I was linking to the official shimano compatibility chart that doesn't support any of the above citations.

mstateglfr 

Shimano didnt create this problem. You and others(at times me included in this) are upset that not all Shimano products are interchangeable. Shimano never promised all products would be compatible, but here you are claiming they created this problem 10 years ago and you still havent come to terms and moved on.

Racing Dan

I think its fair to claim shimano "created a problem" when they, long ago, broke previous existing compatibility between road and mtb components, making customers jump through hoops to get low gears on their drop bar bikes.

Maelochs

Further CUES stuff---( https://bikerumor.com/shimano-cues-m...fordable-1x/):

Gone are the Alivio, Acera, Altus, and the 10- and 11-speed Deore groups, with Shimano CUES rising up to take their place. (Shimano notes it is not cutting support for legacy groups.)

All these are MTB groups. CUES might not include road bikes at all. Cable pull has been different for 10- and 11-speed MTB, as far as I recall, so That is all that might be changing.

Also:

U6000 11-Speed

We’ll see more of what Shimano calls its “benchmark 11-speed series.” This group can be used for everyday fun bike rides to “enthusiastic trail riding.” At this level, you’ll still find a rear derailleur with a clutch and an option for a two-way release shifter.

and ....

When asked if we’ll see CUES launch for the road and gravel side as well, Shimano stated it has built an ecosystem that’s open for future products, but currently has no comments on anything drop-bar related.

I assume most of us ride road bikes mostly (since this isn't the MTB forum,) and that those of us who ride MTBs as well, have been doing so despite the supposed "problems" and also, that those of us who build bikes and occasionally use an MTB cassette on a road bike or use MTB chain rings on a touring bike or whatever ... that we will somehow not suddenly die because of this.

As for the person who showed a compatibility chart which did not even include any of the CUES stuff .... ummm ... what?

Can we establish a "Yelling at Clouds" forum?

cyccommute 

If Shimano didn’t create this problem, why are they providing a fix for it? Why not just continue with the separation of road and MTB component groups? Cross compatibility existed before 2014 and it stopped existing afterwards. If it was a good idea then, why not just keep going.

You keep saying that it is a problem we created by using different parts across their line. They allowed us to do that for decades and then decided one day that had to stop. Now they are riding to our rescue (again) by allowing cross compatibility. How can you say that the rest of us caused this problem?

By the way, Shimano could have done this whole thing back when they changed the mountain bike pull ratios. Just swap over the whole catalog to the same pull ratio and the problem wouldn’t have ever existed. But they slow rolled it and did all kinds of hinky things to make the problem worse. I really suspect that a lot of this roll out has to do with them seeing that the low end companies are making inroads into their market by providing simpler systems to the bike makers.

Maelochs

So .... as far as we know, CUES will be off-road only, will replace the lower--and incompatible--dirt groups with a single standard so people who are building MTBs or any sort of flat-bar bike can use a single system and easily upgrade, and road stuff is not even involved.

Anyone who simply cannot survive after learning this horrendous news ... See ya.

As I said, the world is ending, but not because of bike parts.

Racing Dan

"As for the person who showed a compatibility chart which did not even include any of the CUES stuff .... ummm ... what?"

Well it does. The u6000 and u8000 components are CUES.

bedolaga

It's not bad at all.

icemilkcoffee 

Precisely the opposite. My 'whims' haven't changed at all. I am using tried and true drivetrains that continuously date back to 1987. Shimano is the one changing on a whim.

Yes, from a 'clean sheet' point of view, Shimano is doing the right thing. However Shimano and the bike world is not at all a clean sheet. As I said from the opening sentence- a lot of us have built up quite a stash of the old stuffs, and now Shimano is rewarding us faithful stalwarts by cutting us off and disowning us.

Well herein lies the problem. Once these drivetrains become orphans, parts will dry up. Do you see Sunrace re-creating Uniglide cassettes, Campy 8 speed cassettes or Ultra-6 freewheels? Nope and Nope- these things are permanently off the market and people still hanging onto these parts now have to pay a premium to find them on Ebay. Even something so simple as replacement rubber hoods for the Shimano 7-9 speed brifters are permanently out of stock. You can find tons of aftermarket hoods for the 10+ speed brifters in every color known to man. But none of these aftermarket companies bother to make them for the 7-9 speed non-R series brifters. So don't assume the second line companies will pick up the slack.

himespau 

That's kind of where I'm stuck right now. I have all the parts to build a touring bike up with a 26x36x48 touring triple front and 10-speed 11-36 shimano rear (well, shimano-compatible long cage Microshift RD). A couple of different options for shifters (bar-ends, Kelley Take-Off with 10s DA DT shifters, Campagnolo wtih Shiftmate). Was soon to start building it up. If sourcing cassettes is going to be an issue in the future, do I want to wait to see what the standard is? Just buy a half dozen or so now and store them up?

mstateglfr 

Are they providing a fix for it?...or are they rolling out a new ecosystem of drivetrain components which is stand alone and separate from the old stuff that was cross-compatible? Remember, cable pull will be the same across 9, 10, and 11sp 1x mtb drivetrain components with CUES.

I have not said that it is a problem 'we' created. Nor will I agree that it is a problem 'they' created. You continue to phrase this as an 'us vs them' issue and continue to demand someone be blamed for the change. You want to blame someone because you dislike the change. But thats on you due to your mentality, not Shimano.

I dont know why they changed pull ratios- I think Ive read about it before, though if I did then Ive forgotten. It just isnt critical to me- its something that stopped nearly a decade ago. Like there are people who have been riding for almost a decade who dont even know what you are throwing a tantrum over. Thats how long its been and you still cant move on.
And whats really funny is I can still interchange components.
- I can put a 7sp RD with 9sp shifters and cassette.
- I can have an Ultegra RX RD, 105 FD, and Ultegra shifters. Or 105 shifters, DA FD, and Ultegra RD.

Interchangeability still exists, it just isnt the type or way that you want. I am sorry for your loss.
Oh, and thinking more- I believe its actually been over a decade for the split. 2010 for Dynasis and 2012 for road...right? So you are complaining about something that stopped happening a decade ago(except for all the current interchangeability you dont seem to acknowledge).

sjanzeir

From the Horse's Mouth:

"introducing SHIMANO CUES: a brand-new approach to our mid-tier lifestyle component lineup."

"SHIMANO CUES makes the bike buying experience easier."

"SHIMANO CUES offers smoother shifting, more durable components, and standardizes compatibility across a wide range of categories."

"interchangeable components, including common derailleur pulleys, cassette sprockets and chains, SHIMANO CUES reduces shop inventory needs and simplifies the servicing process"

"bike shops will have the right parts on hand for servicing your bike."

"the unique needs of the everyday rider."

"unified sprocket spacing across our 9-, 10-, and 11-speed drivetrains"

Jeez, how dare they?!

Nyah

Will that be true? I've deliberately stayed below 11spd because I wasn't interested in compromizing chain-durability for the sake of having 1 or 2 more cogs. Now they are unifying everything to the 11spd chain standard that I've chosen to avoid.

sjanzeir

Jeez, how dare they?!

Jughed

Makes perfect sense.

Shimano/SRAM have way too many options.

Must be a nightmare of SKU’s, materials and machining for them to manage, the difference in performance and weight is minimal.


Personally I have some SRAM Apex, 11 speed 105 and 10 speed Dura Ace… all of them shift, stop and ride down the road just fine. I think the tiers and levels are way overhyped.

Maelochs

You added that later .... it was not there when I looked .....

Okay ... I missed it, sorry. I still don't see a problem, but you are right. I missed U6K and U8K entry.

Nyah

Yes, I got that the first time you wrote it. I was/am wondering if Shimano is really being honest when they say that the Cues 11spd chain will be more durable than the 9spd and 10spd chains that it will be replacing.

sjanzeir

Okay, two questions here:

1. What is it that makes you - well, obviously not you, but anyone, really - believe that an 11-speed chain is any less durable than a 10> chain? If anything, a cynic could argue that an 11-speed chain is actually stronger than the wider, fewer-speed chains on account of it having shorter pins, but let's not go there (no, seriously, let's not!)

2. In the grand scheme of things, does it really matter if an 11-speed chain lasts only 2,500 kilometers (compared, say, to a nine-speed chain that may or may not last 3,500km) when the cheapest 11-speed KMC chain is $30?

I mean, come on! Let's just go out and ride our bikes or something!