Maelochs

In my understanding, motorcycle chains handle the higher loads for longer times because they have seals inside to keep the oil in and the water out. https://www.tvsmotor.com/media/blog/...orcycle-chains

livedarklions

We breathe air.

Take the free oxygen out of the air and we suffocate. You're making a distinction without a difference. Air without oxygen would still be air, fromn our perspective it just wouldn't be breathable air. Water without dissolved oxygen would still be water, from the perspective of a fish, it just wouldn't be breathable water.

livedarklions

Yes, they are structurally quite different from bicycle chains. They're also built much stronger, bigger, and heavier. Hence, citing one particular factor as being key to bicycle chains not lasting as long is a fool's errand.

Lombard

In the grand scheme of things, it really isn't. And you know why? Because no matter what you use, your chain will get dirty. Re-lubing the chain with an oil based lube will itself flush any excess grunge. Lube each link every 500 miles and wipe. Chain comes fairly clean. If I can get 8-10K miles doing that, then tell me. How many extra miles will you get with all these heroic chain cleaning rituals people here seem to be obcessed with? It's a freaken chain, not The Crown Jewels.

Lombard

If you're only getting 3000 miles out of your chains, you're doing something terribly wrong. Maybe these solvent based wax lubes you like so much aren't that good?

IDK, I have never heard this "grit grinding" you speak of. I do know that "pearl rattling" is not a sound I want to hear while I'm riding.

smd4

I don’t think grit is making the sound when the OP twists his chain. I think it’s the smacking, sticking sound of the lube itself as it gets worked by the motion.

wolfchild

A chain is the most disposable part of the bike so it's pointless to invest any time and money into trying to extend it's life... I ride all year round, during winter our roads are a mess of salt, sand. de-icing chemicals and all types of crap. Impossible to keep the chain clean. It's pointless to remove the chain for cleaning because all it takes is one ride and your chain will be all messed up and dirty. All I do is just wipe the chain down with a rag soaked with rubbing alcohol or solvent and lube it with a DIY chain lube which is a mixture of motor oil and WD40.. If you're riding in bad conditions there is no magic lube out there which will extend the life of your chain.

Lombard

You mean you haven't discovered that magic space age lube with unicorn dust that can make your chain last for 50,000,000 miles?

Lombard

He's probably regressing to the anal stage - the time period around 1-2 years of age where little kids are fascinated with crap.

elcruxio

Well, I haven't had to buy any new chains or drivetrains for our bikes in over a year. And I haven't had to clean or relube a chain in three weeks now.

Last winter our family went through three drivetrains (granted, they were used by the time but not that used). My touring bike, wife's touring bike and wife's road bike. None of them indicated worn chains but the drivetrains were still shot. Wouldn't mate with new chains.

My lubing interval during the worst period of the salt slush season was from every two to three days to once a week. For five bikes. And yet I wasn't able to keep the rusting or squeaking in check. Salt water just washes even the wettest lube right orf. And you can imagine what a drivetrain looks like with lubing intervals like that.

Nowadays I swap a chain for a fresh one every two to three to four weeks and do a rewax of all used chains every two months or so. And no black gunk.

So for me it really isn't obsessing about chains. It's about saving time and effort and just riding bikes rather than maintaining them.

Lombard

Salt and slush would definitely present a special challenge. I'm glad you found something that works for those conditions.

livedarklions

You're both describing completely different approaches to the same problem. I don't think either of you are wrong, you just have different preferences as to how you want to do the maintenance.

I think salt is also a completely different factor than sand, so winter biking is a special use case.

cyccommute 

Grit sticks to the oil. More importantly, the small grit that sticks to the chain gets pumped into the chain since the oil is a liquid that flows into and out of the chain constantly. Relubing the chain just flushes the grit from the outside to the inside. Wiping the chain pushes the small grit that does the damage to the chain into the gaps of the chain where the oil pumps it right into the internals of the chain where it grids away.

Grit gets deposited on the outside of a wax chain but it doesn’t stick to the wax. External wax sloughs off taking the smaller amount of grit with it. It doesn’t get pumped into the chain because the wax doesn’t flow. Adding new solvent wax to the chain carries a small amount of grit with it but not that much and, because the wax doesn’t move, the grit is far less of a wear problem. But, as I detail below, there is a different wear mechanism for wax which leads to about the same wear interval.

Frankly, I don’t believe your 8000 km claim. 3000 miles is just a rough estimate. It’s a range of 3000 to 4000 miles and isn’t that much less than 8000km. It’s just a whole lot cleaner.

I’ve heard it and felt it. Depends on where you ride. I used oil on mountain bikes…Phil’s Tenacious oil, to be exact…for many years and am well aware of the “crunchy” problem elcyc is talking about.


You are completely misunderstanding what I am saying. I don’t do heroic chain cleaning nor drivetrain cleaning rituals. I’ve long been an advocate of doing exactly the opposite. That’s the reason I use solvent wax instead of oil or hot wax. I don’t clean my chain more than the initial install. I don’t have to clean or wipe or take apart my drivetrain for any given interval you’d like to specify…daily, weekly, biweekly, etc. Those are all intervals I’ve heard people claim that they have to do to keep their bikes clean. Here’s a picture of my drivetrain in the middle of winter (January, I think) that has not be cleaned before the picture was taken

IMG_1153 by Stuart Black, on Flickr
IMG_1155 by Stuart Black, on Flickr

My drivetrains always look like this and I do minimal cleaning even when I put on a new chain.

The only reason I clean the chain before an install is because I’ve found the factory lube to be a lot dirtier if I don’t.

You are missing the point. Motorcycle chains aren’t that much more overbuilt than a bicycle chain. Yes, they are wider but they do undergo a whole lot more strain and stress than a bicycle chain ever does. Yet they last a whole lot longer because they are overbuilt and sealed and run through oil baths that remove the grit problem. We can’t do that because of our low power motors so we wear out an unsealed chain a whole lot faster than a high power motor of a motorcycle.

No, I’m not saying that a bicycle chain can last 25,000 miles on a bicycle if wax is used. There is a different pathway for a waxed chain to wear out that doesn’t significantly increase the life of the chain. Wax doesn’t move back into the pressure points like oil does so there is more metal on metal wear. Grit isn’t the problem it is with oil since oil pumps grit into the pressure points where it does its wear but metal on metal wear is. You can’t win. The only advantage wax has is in cleanliness of the drivetrain. Since the mileage is equivalent, the difference in cleaning makes wax very attractive.

I’ll state again that water does not remove wax in anyway, shape, or form. Wax, by its very chemical nature, is much less water soluble than oil and oil doesn’t have much water solubility. You could spray the contents of Lake Superior on a chain that has been waxed and the wax would outlast the metal…it’s that insoluble in water. The issue with a waxed chain squeaking after getting wet is due to that lack of movement of the wax from above.

That said, oil doesn’t do any better in the wet than wax does. It just happens to flow back into the spaces that get rusty with waxed chain. But the water separates from the oil and the water has a higher affinity for the metal than the oil does…has to do with that water solubility issue. And, since you already acknowledge that water has dissolved oxygen in it, that oxygen does what oxygen does to metal - it oxidizes it. The squeak that is there with wax is still there with oil, it’s just masked by the oil. Any bicycle chain that is used in wet conditions should be lubricated afterwards to prevent oxidation.

​​​​​​​There’s no free lunch.

Lombard

Yeah, I know all about the claims people make that dry wax lubes are cleaner than wet oil lubes. From my experience, that is not the case. Dry wax lubes get gummy. I also hear ad nauseam about how grinding paste gets sucked into chain internals and grinds them away to dust.

First off, re-read my post below. I said 8K miles, not 8000 km. Big difference:

Second, if you don't believe me, I can't help you. That's your own problem. Or you don't want to believe me because you are so set in wanting to be right. And 3000-4000 miles is much less than 8000 miles as in half or less.

livedarklions

A masked squeak?!?!?! Sorry, but when you assert something as absurd as that, I really don't need to discount my experience to fit your sophistry. There's no squeak because it's properly lubricated, the squeak is just the audible symptom. I don't have problems with rusting with oil-based lubes in rain, I don't experience any squeaking or grinding sounds, and my experience with the performance of solvent wax in heavy rain was simply intolerable for me. My riding is almost exclusively on pavement, my calculations might be somewhat different if I had different riding habits. I won't pretend to know the comparative hydrophobic chemistry of solvent wax or mechanical "flow" issues, I just know that the properly lubricated chain is easier to pedal and the ride is a lot more pleasant. I get that with oil-based lubes, I don't like wax.

Yes, outside of the facts that motorcycle chains are completely different structurally and used in a fundamentally different way than bicycle chains, they are indeed chains. I'm not missing your point, you basically just admitted the two things have virtually no relevant similarities.

​​​​​​​OP doesn't know whether he has a grit problem, he just knows some of his chains make a funny sound when he twists them. Bike chains are not designed to be silent while twisted. I've got one weird trick to solve that problem-- I don't twist my chains.

Lombard

Winner, winner, chicken dinner! Who woulda thunk?? 👍

Revelation #2! 👍

BlazingPedals

Chain threads never fail to entertain.

GhostRider62

Molten Speed Wax and Silca melted dry wax does not get gummy.

Liquid wax like Squirt, Smoove, and Silca secret sauce get gummy when applied incorrectly

cyccommute 

The oxidation occurs with both wax and oil. That’s the way that dissolved oxygen in water works. The water provides a vehicle for the oxygen to convert the metal to an ionic metal oxide. Oil doesn’t stop it. Ever heard the old saw of “oil and water don’t mix”. They don’t and the oil floats on the water because of density differences. Oxidation happens whether you believe it or not.

No, I’m not admitting that they have no relevant similarities. Motorcycle and bicycle chains are exactly the same mechanisms using the same kinds of parts in slightly different sizes. Motorcycle chains have some enhancements that lead to longer life that bicycle chains can’t reproduce due to the differences in power output of the motors. You could make a bicycle chain with o-ring seals and automatic oilers but you couldn’t pedal it with a 1/5 to 1/4 horsepower power plant. I’m not even sure you could pedal it with a bicycle electric motor which is only 1.2 horsepower. It’s just not an option so we have to live with short lived chains.

​​​​​​​Oh, he knows he has a grit problem. We all know what that “teeth on edge” grinding noise means. He just wants to confirm that he has that problem.

And, yes, you do twist your chains…every time you shift gears.

cyccommute 

I don’t know what wax lubricants you have been using but I’ve never had one that becomes gummy. Factory lubricant…a soft wax…can be a little gummy but that is why I strip it off before installation. It cleaner.

My mistake. However if your claim is true, you are an outlier by several times over what most people claim for chain mileage. Very few people claim that kind of mileage for a chain.


It’s an extraordinary claim and I’d need far more than “trust me” to believe it. I’ve been riding bikes for more than 40 years using both oils and wax. I’ve never gotten anywhere close to 8000 miles out of a chain nor have many people.

GhostRider62

16 out of 93 posts by the least technically qualified.

Chains don't twist? Unless chainline is perfect and you are running a fixie, all chains twist.

smd4

I submit that flexing a chain side-to-side is different than twisting.

GhostRider62

I submit that is a distinction with no difference. Twist will be in two dimensions while shifting and when in say big-big or small-small combinations, the chain will flex in both orientations but some chains are better than others.

Lombard

Well I don't have a way of proving this to you, so if you don't believe me, that's on you. And this might come as a surprise, but there are quite a few people who get 8000 miles out of their chains and even a few people who get over 10,000 miles out of their chains.

I maintain that if you are only getting 3000 miles out of your chains, you're doing something wrong. Either your lube isn't very good, your lubing methods aren't effective, you ride a lot in foul weather and other challenging conditions or you're changing your chains before they need to be changed.

livedarklions

Oh, gosh, will it satisfy your pedantry if I specify "twisted by hand"? Or how about "twisted forcibly to any significant degree"?

OP is describing taking the chain into both hands and rotating his hands in opposite directions. That doesn't resemble the lateral forces you two are discussing in any relevant way.