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Can we make Bicycles Sustainable Again?

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Can we make Bicycles Sustainable Again?

Old 03-27-23, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
We know most of them will end up in the "EV Battareez--Hazerdis" section of some landfill in some small town somewhere, leaching away through the never-maintained liner ..... .
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=recycling+...=v314-1&ia=web

...one class I took over at the autotech place near me, on the LEAF, was about half filled with guys who worked for Central Valley recycling yards.
The battery is an expensive component of the car, and they were tired of not knowing how to test and resell the ones out of wrecks. There have also been some spectacular fires at salvage yards.

Even though I live in a place where this technology was adopted early on, we are still early in the lifespan of the BEV tech cycle.

There's at least one company in Japan that does nothing but rebuild the old battery packs for Nissan LEAF, at about half the price for a new battery. I don't know what they do with the old cells they strip out of them.
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Old 03-27-23, 12:54 PM
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[QUOTE=Koyote;22842080]"The scientific consensus that humans are altering the climate has passed 99.9%, ​/QUOTE] That's good enough for me as it should be for anyone who doesn't have their own heavy duty climate science credentials.
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Old 03-27-23, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
There have also been some spectacular fires at salvage yards.
Outstanding. I hope the "Fire Hot" sign was clearly visible.
Originally Posted by 3alarmer
There's at least one company in Japan that does nothing but rebuild the old battery packs for Nissan LEAF, at about half the price for a new battery. I don't know what they do with the old cells they strip out of them.
Yup ..... so they reuse the containers, but the chemically spent rare-earth cells? Who knows?

The fact that we care so little about crapping in our own food and water supplies already doesn't fill me with hope. Waste disposal is usually determined by the "cheapest method for which we are not likely to get heavily fined" factor .... including burying under neighborhoods and dumping down storm drains.
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Old 03-27-23, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote


The people who generated this are actual climate scientists who are working with actual data. You know, as opposed to people with no actual education or training in the subject who nonetheless think they know more than those who do have education and training in the subject.
Originally Posted by PeteHski
The MIT report released a couple of years ago comparing EV vs combustion engine lifecycle emissions concluded that EVs are significantly less polluting overall (especially when used on cleaner electricity grids), but still not enough on their own to meet long-term government emission targets. But interestingly, the popular media deliberately mis-quoted this report to make it sound like EVs were environmentally worse. I read both the media stories and the actual MIT report and they were like chalk and cheese. The authors of the report actually wrote a complaint letter about this mis-representation to a number of newspapers, but nobody really paid attention beyond the original click bait.
Scientists aren't known for being great communicators. And most of their funding comes from government and some corporate funding provided their research and findings do not conflict against their corporate donors.

Whereas the fossil fuel and auto industry have deep pockets for hiring marketing professionals who know all the right buttons to hit that manipulate popular opinion and generate confusion.

Ever see the Rand Paul / Anthony Fauci debate? Rand Paul was a doctor but more importantly, is a politician. He's been coached and trained to convince the masses to make his adversaries look bad. That's the nature of his job. Dr. Fauci is good at what he does but his job does not depend upon discrediting his opponent and the only person he needs to convince is the President all based on his interpretation of data.

A few other good communicators are Neil DeGrasse Tyson, and Brian Greene. But if they get into Climate Change debates the deniers as they shrug off the science, criticize them as celebrities.

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Old 03-27-23, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Outstanding. I hope the "Fire Hot" sign was clearly visible.
Yup ..... so they reuse the containers, but the chemically spent rare-earth cells? Who knows?

The fact that we care so little about crapping in our own food and water supplies already doesn't fill me with hope. Waste disposal is usually determined by the "cheapest method for which we are not likely to get heavily fined" factor .... including burying under neighborhoods and dumping down storm drains.
Rare earth elements aren’t used in EV battery construction. EV batteries use lithium, nickel, manganese, and cobalt. Lithium is the 33 most common element in the crust, between Scandium and Nioblum, at about 17ppm. That may not seem like a lot but Lead is lower on the list at about 10 ppm. Even the typical “rare earth” metals aren’t all that rare. Scandium, for example is called a rare earth but it has about a 26ppm concentration in the crust. These metals also aren’t “chemically spent”. The lithium is present in the battery as lithium carbonate which isn’t toxic nor does the use in a battery change it into something else that can’t be recovered. When batteries go bad, it is usually something to do with separators and membranes that goes wrong. In other words, it’s a mechanical problem, not a chemical one.

I agree that disposal is usually the cheapest method but that problem could be solved if we made disposal far more expensive than recycling. The political will isn’t there to do that…yet!
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Old 03-27-23, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4
Scientists aren't known for being great communicators. And most of their funding comes from government and some corporate funding provided their research and findings do not conflict against their corporate donors.
Scientists are, indeed, great communicators. That’s how science gets pushed forward all the time…through communication between people who know what they are talking about..The population, at large, is very poor at understanding that conversation. I also take umbrage at the idea that scientist lie for their funders. Any scientist who would willingly lie about something is quickly found out and will risk their professional standing. Even making a honest mistake can be devastating. Scientist don’t rush any idea to press as they have to check it ten ways from Sunday before they release it to the world. And then their communications…i.e. publications…are checked ten ways from Sunday before it is published. Even after it has been published, findings and results are checked further through application and use as a basis for further scientific advances.

Whereas the fossil fuel and auto industry have deep pockets for hiring marketing professionals who know all the right buttons to hit that manipulate popular opinion and generate confusion.

Ever see the Rand Paul / Anthony Fauci debate? Rand Paul was a doctor but more importantly, is a politician. He's been coached and trained to convince the masses to make his adversaries look bad. That's the nature of his job. Dr. Fauci is good at what he does but his job does not depend upon discrediting his opponent and the only person he needs to convince is the President all based on his interpretation of data.
.
And herein lies some of the problem. Those with an agenda can easily miscommunicate information…or out and out lie…while a scientist has to stay within the bounds of their reputation. There’s even a term for it…the Gish gallop…where you just lie about all kinds of stuff and make the other person…the one with morals…try to respond to all your specious points. It’s far easier to lie than to tell the truth.
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Old 03-27-23, 05:06 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Carbon emissions from fossil fuel use are declining, but atmospheric CO2 levels are still rising; I'm not current enough to give a definitive explanation for this seeming paradox, (snip)
If you are filling a bathtub with both taps running at full blast, and then you turn the taps down a little, the tub still fills.
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Old 03-27-23, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by genejockey
If you are filling a bathtub with both taps running at full blast, and then you turn the taps down a little, the tub still fills.
Yes, of course. Thanks.

I guess I was explaining why global temps may rise at faster rates even as carbon emissions slow down, which is a different thing.
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Old 03-27-23, 05:12 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Scientists are, indeed, great communicators. That’s how science gets pushed forward all the time…through communication between people who know what they are talking about..The population, at large, is very poor at understanding that conversation. I also take umbrage at the idea that scientist lie for their funders. Any scientist who would willingly lie about something is quickly found out and will risk their professional standing. Even making a honest mistake can be devastating. Scientist don’t rush any idea to press as they have to check it ten ways from Sunday before they release it to the world. And then their communications…i.e. publications…are checked ten ways from Sunday before it is published. Even after it has been published, findings and results are checked further through application and use as a basis for further scientific advances.



And herein lies some of the problem. Those with an agenda can easily miscommunicate information…or out and out lie…while a scientist has to stay within the bounds of their reputation. There’s even a term for it…the Gish gallop…where you just lie about all kinds of stuff and make the other person…the one with morals…try to respond to all your specious points. It’s far easier to lie than to tell the truth.
Another problem we Scientists have is that we don't like to speak in absolutes because Science is not so much a way to prove things as it is a way to disprove everything else. So we say "the data are consistent with the hypothesis" rather than "This thing is true", or we couch what we say in layers of conditionals. Even something as thoroughly proven as Evolution, we are loath to say is definitively proven to be true. And laymen take that to mean that "it's just a theory!", by which they mean what we would call an hypothesis, rather than something that has been exceptionally well supported by all the data and is not seriously disputed.
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Old 03-27-23, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Yes, of course. Thanks.

I guess I was explaining why global temps may rise at faster rates even as carbon emissions slow down, which is a different thing.
Warmer is only part of it. Disruption of weather patterns we've been able to depend on since the dawn of civilization is another. We farm where we farm and built cities where they are because we could depend on those weather patterns. Now? Not so much.
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Old 03-27-23, 06:23 PM
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Weather patterns change fairly frequently actually. They bring droughts and floods and other disasters which made life interesting for the poorest people (75% of the people) up until mechanization and such made everything more abundant. How much of "global warming" is indeed climatic is unknowable.

of course the issue is way more than "warming," or C)2 .... it is mass pollution, deforestation, paving over wetlands .... diverting rivers to grow rice and raise cows in California and grow lawns in Arizona .... groups of humans have always had the power to render small areas of the planet uninhabitable through deforestation or whatever ..... now we are working away, destroying dozens of ecosystems everywhere, and wondering why band-aids don't stop the arterial bleeding.

Plus we have seen everything that is not our house---including the other guy's house--as a legitimate place to dump waste, often toxic. In many areas the local tax base is unwilling to pay more to deal with their own sewage .... and if they did pay more the politicians would find a way to steal the money and not fix the issues .... but how stupid do we need to be not to deal with our own human waste?

We depend on science to increase health and life span and work against it by poisoning our environment and selling processed food with less nutrients for more profit ..... and as Cyccommute hints, the political will to actually speak the hard truth about Anything big and serious and expensive , simply isn't there. Housewives would rather complain that their kids are all getting sick than pay enough to keep toxins out of the food supply. Taxpayers will spend whatever amount for "Defense" yet next to nothing for the actual life-saving necessities. ...... It would be funny if the bill wasn't going to come due in a real way for the kids growing up today ..... We lament that we cannot drink tap water, but what we will we do when you can only drink commercially available processed water and the cost for a filtration system capable of cleaning any other water source is astronomical? When the municipality sells water for more than we now pay for gas?

We are a slowly boiling frog, except this frog has powers of denial that would be ridiculous in a fairy tale. A frog would hop out of hot water .... we deny that the temperature is increasing.

I don't see science or technology getting us out of this one. This has been a monumental and ongoing and very deliberate failure of will and intellect. People have repeatedly made the stupidest possible choices and rejected the best possible information. No one else to blame but ourselves.
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Old 03-27-23, 07:25 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Weather patterns change fairly frequently actually. They bring droughts and floods and other disasters which made life interesting for the poorest people (75% of the people) up until mechanization and such made everything more abundant. How much of "global warming" is indeed climatic is unknowable.
Actually, it's becoming more knowable all the time.
https://theconversation.com/climate-...tural%20causes.
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Old 03-27-23, 07:51 PM
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To the comment above about me attempting to push this to P&R, sorry but the premise of the thread (or at least the quoted article) is inherently political. This whole "sustainability" buzzword is by its very nature a political stunt.

For the life of me, I cannot understand people's desire, nay, need to feel guilt over something about which they either have no control over or responsibility for.
Actually, I do. I think all it is is people who have a desperate need to feel like they matter. "I'm doing something to 'save the planet', so I matter". Doesn't hurt that nobody can ever disprove the contribution. Weather is different, hey you had an impact. Weather is the same, those darn soccer moms and their Explorers! And then there are the people who really believe themselves to be brilliant because they parrot what people who are supposed to be brilliant tell them. Sorry folks. Data can be and has been corrupted (East Anglia anyone?). Not only that, but all these measurements we're using as comparison. Are we seriously going to use data collected today and compare that to the eyeball reading old Jedediah wrote down from his mercury thermometer back in 1882 and pretend they're even remotely comparable? Come on, people! There is a serious lack of critical thinking here.

So, sorry folks. All the crap you want to do isn't going to amount to crap in the long run. This whole up-ending the world as we know it reminds me so much of the paper/plastic argument back in the 80s. "We have to save the forests!!! Use plastic bags." 30 years later, uh oh. Plastic bags are bad, mkay? SSDD. But I guess some people just have to feel like their life has meaning. I get that. Just don't drag me into your psychosis.
Originally Posted by rossiny
I love the debate about climate change. The reason being is that magically all pollution has been cured and magically disappeared miraculously!!! Currently no airplanes, car, pollute , nor plastic clogg our oceans, waterways. No problem with the push towards EVs, requiring vast amounts of lithium mining, electric power demand if we go that route, no landfill problems overflowing, and fake recycling programs shipping stuff to China.. .
You see , climate change debate has cured all of these, ,, just prove it's a normal phase earth goes through , and our conscience is clear as a new born 👶 baby 🤥
I know, right? Climate change also has absolutely nothing to do with the giant nuclear reactor in the sky either. Amiright?
Originally Posted by tcs
Sustainable? I dunno. I ordered newly made HSA120 Pawl Springs for an overhaul of my pre-War Sturmey AW.



Fun fact: As they were before the 11th century.
Ans as they were during the Roman occupation of Britannia.
[QUOTE=shelbyfv;22842101]
Originally Posted by Koyote
"The scientific consensus that humans are altering the climate has passed 99.9%, ​/QUOTE] That's good enough for me as it should be for anyone who doesn't have their own heavy duty climate science credentials.
Sorry, but that's utter BS. More like 99.9% of the people pushing that narrative simply disregard anyone who disagrees with them. Hence my comment earlier about an echo chamber. Take this very thread as an example. Echo chamber. Folks, that's not science. That's just dogma.
Originally Posted by Daniel4
Scientists aren't known for being great communicators. And most of their funding comes from government and some corporate funding provided their research and findings do not conflict against their corporate donors.

Whereas the fossil fuel and auto industry have deep pockets for hiring marketing professionals who know all the right buttons to hit that manipulate popular opinion and generate confusion.

Ever see the Rand Paul / Anthony Fauci debate? Rand Paul was a doctor but more importantly, is a politician. He's been coached and trained to convince the masses to make his adversaries look bad. That's the nature of his job. Dr. Fauci is good at what he does but his job does not depend upon discrediting his opponent and the only person he needs to convince is the President all based on his interpretation of data.

A few other good communicators are Neil DeGrasse Tyson, and Brian Greene. But if they get into Climate Change debates the deniers as they shrug off the science, criticize them as celebrities.
You are really pushing the bounds of credibility bringing up the Falsi argument. That little ****ing troll should be in jail.
Originally Posted by genejockey
Warmer is only part of it. Disruption of weather patterns we've been able to depend on since the dawn of civilization is another. We farm where we farm and built cities where they are because we could depend on those weather patterns. Now? Not so much.
Right. I recall as a teenager seeing a comercial with Ted Danson (of Cheers fame) warning that Miami would be underwater by the year 2000. We're 23 years past that now and last I checked, Miami is still there.
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Old 03-27-23, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by VegasJen
To the comment above about me attempting to push this to P&R, sorry but the premise of the thread (or at least the quoted article) is inherently political. This whole "sustainability" buzzword is by its very nature a political stunt.

For the life of me, I cannot understand people's desire, nay, need to feel guilt over something about which they either have no control over or responsibility for.
Actually, I do. I think all it is is people who have a desperate need to feel like they matter. "I'm doing something to 'save the planet', so I matter". Doesn't hurt that nobody can ever disprove the contribution. Weather is different, hey you had an impact. Weather is the same, those darn soccer moms and their Explorers! And then there are the people who really believe themselves to be brilliant because they parrot what people who are supposed to be brilliant tell them. Sorry folks. Data can be and has been corrupted (East Anglia anyone?). Not only that, but all these measurements we're using as comparison. Are we seriously going to use data collected today and compare that to the eyeball reading old Jedediah wrote down from his mercury thermometer back in 1882 and pretend they're even remotely comparable? Come on, people! There is a serious lack of critical thinking here.

So, sorry folks. All the crap you want to do isn't going to amount to crap in the long run. This whole up-ending the world as we know it reminds me so much of the paper/plastic argument back in the 80s. "We have to save the forests!!! Use plastic bags." 30 years later, uh oh. Plastic bags are bad, mkay? SSDD. But I guess some people just have to feel like their life has meaning. I get that. Just don't drag me into your psychosis.
I know, right? Climate change also has absolutely nothing to do with the giant nuclear reactor in the sky either. Amiright?

Ans as they were during the Roman occupation of Britannia.

Sorry, but that's utter BS. More like 99.9% of the people pushing that narrative simply disregard anyone who disagrees with them. Hence my comment earlier about an echo chamber. Take this very thread as an example. Echo chamber. Folks, that's not science. That's just dogma.

You are really pushing the bounds of credibility bringing up the Falsi argument. That little ****ing troll should be in jail.

Right. I recall as a teenager seeing a comercial with Ted Danson (of Cheers fame) warning that Miami would be underwater by the year 2000. We're 23 years past that now and last I checked, Miami is still there.

Yes, I'm sure you know more than all of those pointy-headed scientists with their PhDs and peer-reviewed research.
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Old 03-27-23, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by VegasJen
You are really pushing the bounds of credibility bringing up the Falsi argument. That little ****ing troll should be in jail.
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Old 03-27-23, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv
Oh, man, ouch! You really let me have it with that one!
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Old 03-27-23, 08:16 PM
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Yeah, suits those of us who didn't learn much science.
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Old 03-27-23, 08:18 PM
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You tell yourself whatever makes you feel better at night.
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Old 03-27-23, 08:21 PM
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Not wrong about you and science though, am I?
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Old 03-27-23, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Outstanding. I hope the "Fire Hot" sign was clearly visible.
...initially, this was why salvage yards were reluctant to deal with stripping oiut and reselling the batteries.
AS time went on, this became less of a problem. Again, the economics of reuse of these wrecked car batteries has played a large part.

Yup ..... so they reuse the containers, but the chemically spent rare-earth cells? Who knows?
...no. They replace the cells that are not up to spec. Those that still work are reused. Given that it's Japan, if I had to guess, the spent cell disposal is regulated.
Again, this technology is in its infancy, as is BEV battery technology. But I guess we can all throw up our hands and just decide it's impossible.

I don't know the current status of this Japanese facility. I have not followed it in the news. But Nissan, at least, was once firmly focused on this sustainability model.
The old batteries have also been experimented with in electricity storage banks. Just because they will no longer push a car 140 miles doesn't mean they are useless.

Originally Posted by Maelochs
The fact that we care so little about crapping in our own food and water supplies already doesn't fill me with hope. Waste disposal is usually determined by the "cheapest method for which we are not likely to get heavily fined" factor .... including burying under neighborhoods and dumping down storm drains.
...this sort of waste disposal is the subject of substantial legal regulation here in California. Will it work ? I can't guarantee it, but the economics of it will (and have) dictate(d) parts of it.
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Old 03-27-23, 09:13 PM
  #96  
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Moving right along.

By the way, ladies & gentlemen, thank you for keeping things peaceful and agreeing to disagree when needed.
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Old 03-27-23, 09:15 PM
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VegasJen
There is nothing political about sustainability unless you make it so. We all live on this planet together and if we trash it completely well we trash it for everyone regardless of political or non-political affiliation. Fascists, Conservatives, Liberals, Libertarians, Socialists, Anarchists, Parliamentarians, Nihilists, Theocrats, Autocrats... wherever you are on the political spectrum and also all of those who aren't on the political spectrum are all effected without any regard to any of that. It is the don't drop a load of fecal matter where you sleep idea.

I am sorry you fail to realize that and must make things political because so many people these days feel the need to do that for some silly reason.

A bicycle that will last longer and be able to be reused or recycled has no politics attached. It is an inanimate object that does so many great things for so many people all over the world. You are here presumably because you like bicycles why does it have to then be political? If you don't like bikes and prefer politics then find a good political forum I can imagine there are plenty of those for all over the spectrum so you can find a community to suit your political beliefs if that is so needed.

To me a long lasting bicycle of quality that is better for the place I live and would like to continue living for a very long life, sounds like a win-win and doesn't need to get involved in anything more than some fun times on the trail or road or wherever you want to ride : )
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Old 03-27-23, 10:15 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by VegasJen
You tell yourself whatever makes you feel better at night.
I enjoy your counter posts. Not because I agree with the., and not because I think it's noble to take the unpopular opinion. I enjoy them because a petty and shallow part of me actually smiles when I see someone spouting ignorance with confidence. It's just a genuinely enjoyable experience.

I wish I were a better person and didn't find such joy, but it's fine because I still sleep well knowing I am better than some others.
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Old 03-27-23, 10:19 PM
  #99  
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I have a hunch that the sustainability of a bike has a lot to do with the commitment of the owner. Keep it maintained, don't let it deteriorate, prepare to find a good home for it if you get a new bike. And ride it. Find ways to eliminate car trips.

The more exotic a bike, the fewer made, to the point where the consumption of materials such as carbon fiber probably doesn't matter very much. Cheaper bikes that are made in larger quantities still tend to be made from mostly recyclable materials.
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Old 03-27-23, 10:48 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv
Not wrong about you and science though, am I?
You are most assuredly wrong about this. I can only imagine what else.
Originally Posted by veganbikes
VegasJen
There is nothing political about sustainability unless you make it so. We all live on this planet together and if we trash it completely well we trash it for everyone regardless of political or non-political affiliation. Fascists, Conservatives, Liberals, Libertarians, Socialists, Anarchists, Parliamentarians, Nihilists, Theocrats, Autocrats... wherever you are on the political spectrum and also all of those who aren't on the political spectrum are all effected without any regard to any of that. It is the don't drop a load of fecal matter where you sleep idea.

I am sorry you fail to realize that and must make things political because so many people these days feel the need to do that for some silly reason.

A bicycle that will last longer and be able to be reused or recycled has no politics attached. It is an inanimate object that does so many great things for so many people all over the world. You are here presumably because you like bicycles why does it have to then be political? If you don't like bikes and prefer politics then find a good political forum I can imagine there are plenty of those for all over the spectrum so you can find a community to suit your political beliefs if that is so needed.

To me a long lasting bicycle of quality that is better for the place I live and would like to continue living for a very long life, sounds like a win-win and doesn't need to get involved in anything more than some fun times on the trail or road or wherever you want to ride : )
I disagree. "Sustainability" is now a buzz word inexorably linked to a particular agenda. And that agenda is particularly political. And for the record, I hate politics. I hate it with a passion. Sadly, it has seeped into every facet of daily life. You can't listen to music without it. You can't watch a movie without it. You can't enjoy a football game without it. It's like the Matrix now. It is everywhere. It is inescapable.

For those of you still in denial, there is a very simple formula you need to learn and apply to your daily life: X + politics = politics, where X is any subject you choose. For example, sports + politics = politics, music + politics = politics, environment + politics = politics, weather + politics = politics, etc, etc. Politics is like a cancer. It is all-consuming. It devours and suffocates and consumes everything it touches.

As for me, I'm old enough to remember a time when you could watch the nightly news all week and you might not hear or see a single thing about Washington DC. Those days are long gone. The cancer has spread. So please, don't blow smoke up my butt and tell me it's sunshine, because, sweetheart, I'm old enough to know better.
Originally Posted by mstateglfr
I enjoy your counter posts. Not because I agree with the., and not because I think it's noble to take the unpopular opinion. I enjoy them because a petty and shallow part of me actually smiles when I see someone spouting ignorance with confidence. It's just a genuinely enjoyable experience.

I wish I were a better person and didn't find such joy, but it's fine because I still sleep well knowing I am better than some others.
Irony. I could say exactly the same thing about you.
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