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So 853 was calling my name....

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So 853 was calling my name....

Old 08-10-22, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
Unless they're Jan Heine and are absolutely convinced the consensus is wrong. I think he's been talking about planing and useful flex almost as long (longer?) than he has the benefits of wide tires with supple sidewalls. Of course, he's a publish who also has a bicycle product to sell, so having a controversy to teach allows him to differentiate his product from the masses.
I'm not sure that he has been using a controversy to sell products as much as he has identified a preference for a style/characteristic of a product and then gradually started to offer them for sale.

Clearly Jan H. gets credit for getting us to talk about frame flex in a positive way, and most of the credit for advancing the idea that high quality larger tires are not slower than smaller tires of the same quality (this summary overlooks the details and caveats, though). He was the first to offer test data that backed up this claim.

Looking back through my issues of Vintage Bicycle Quarterly and an index to articles, I see that it was in VBQ volume 4, number 2 where he has a short article titled "Frame Stiffness Revisited". This was the 14 issue of the quarterly publication. The index to articles doesn't offer any hint as to when/where the stiffness issue was first discussed.





As for tires, issue 13 does have a review of the Grand Bois Cypres 650B x 32 tires. I suppose Grant Petersen gets credit for popularizing the 650B tires and finding manufacturers to source them, IIRC. In this VBQ issue, Jan says that he will make a one-time offer to sell these Grand Bois tires. As such, it doesn't appear that he is simply providing a favorable review to a product that he was already selling. While this issue does include a small ad indicating that Jan was acting as a distributor(?) for Alex Singer cycles, I don't see any sign that he is selling tires or other goods at that time.

I think I've made the argument in the past that the bike industry has been happy to argue that certain bike or component characteristics are desirable without presenting any sort of test data to prove it. It seems like it has been up to private individuals or groups to run some tests to demonstrate what is better or worse. Unless the characteristic is something that the consumer can easily verify, such as weight, the manufacturers don't appear to be interested in performing tests.

Steve in Peoria
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Old 08-10-22, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. 66 View Post
The 853 sure makes a nice road touring bike, that Rocky Mountain Sherpa 30 is just outstanding. I guess all would say the Sherpa is made of the oversize tubing. I thought of it as springy, and quick in correction. Fully loaded, rides great. I had it built as flat bar hybrid.
Now that is probably the 853 I would get into. It wasn't 100.00 on Facebook marketplace unfortunately.
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Old 08-10-22, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy View Post
I'm not sure that he has been using a controversy to sell products as much as he has identified a preference for a style/characteristic of a product and then gradually started to offer them for sale.

Clearly Jan H. gets credit for getting us to talk about frame flex in a positive way, and most of the credit for advancing the idea that high quality larger tires are not slower than smaller tires of the same quality (this summary overlooks the details and caveats, though). He was the first to offer test data that backed up this claim.

Looking back through my issues of Vintage Bicycle Quarterly and an index to articles, I see that it was in VBQ volume 4, number 2 where he has a short article titled "Frame Stiffness Revisited". This was the 14 issue of the quarterly publication. The index to articles doesn't offer any hint as to when/where the stiffness issue was first discussed.





As for tires, issue 13 does have a review of the Grand Bois Cypres 650B x 32 tires. I suppose Grant Petersen gets credit for popularizing the 650B tires and finding manufacturers to source them, IIRC. In this VBQ issue, Jan says that he will make a one-time offer to sell these Grand Bois tires. As such, it doesn't appear that he is simply providing a favorable review to a product that he was already selling. While this issue does include a small ad indicating that Jan was acting as a distributor(?) for Alex Singer cycles, I don't see any sign that he is selling tires or other goods at that time.

I think I've made the argument in the past that the bike industry has been happy to argue that certain bike or component characteristics are desirable without presenting any sort of test data to prove it. It seems like it has been up to private individuals or groups to run some tests to demonstrate what is better or worse. Unless the characteristic is something that the consumer can easily verify, such as weight, the manufacturers don't appear to be interested in performing tests.

Steve in Peoria
For me, the idea than any race bike would have anything to do with how I use a bike is kind of ridiculous. I should have seen that before buying the peleton but the price and the fact that it was 853 confused me. In any case, I'll dial it in before I move it along. I could probably sell the frame to someone. Rode grand record again today and I am not sure I have liked any bike better except possibly the trek 720 I have and it's pretty close. I obviously like springy touring bikes.
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Old 08-10-22, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by steelbikeguy View Post
I'm not sure that he has been using a controversy to sell products as much as he has identified a preference for a style/characteristic of a product and then gradually started to offer them for sale.


Steve in Peoria
Oh, I'm not saying that he cynically did/published the research with the sole aim to sell more products, but Mark B had said that magazines were unlikely to go against the norm of what pros were using/their advertisers were paying them for/what their customers were riding and believed, so I was just bringing Jan H. up as the exception that proved the rule and was then instrumental in changing tire preferences of pros, manufacturers, magazines, and amateur riders. As a scientist, every publication I submit has to end with a statement of any possible conflicts of interest (so readers can know whether to trust what I've just told them), so it's just sort of my nature to throw that type of caveat to the end of my statement that some could say that his business might have benefited from his publication of his findings. Of course, a more clear reading of the timeline would probably say, his research found this result, he published it, he saw there there was a lack of businesses taking advantage of his understanding, so he did it. And it's not like he's challenging the Continentals or Schwalbes of the world in terms of sales volume even so (and he doesn't even sell frames that take advantage of his ideas about planing).
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Old 08-10-22, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilroy1988 View Post
bulgie Mark,
<snip>quite heavy-handed.
<snip>rather petty
<snip>ignorance, complete bias or total disregard.
OK, message received!

Mark B
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Old 08-10-22, 04:51 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
Oh, I'm not saying that he cynically did/published the research with the sole aim to sell more products, but Mark B had said that magazines were unlikely to go against the norm of what pros were using/their advertisers were paying them for/what their customers were riding and believed, so I was just bringing Jan H. up as the exception that proved the rule and was then instrumental in changing tire preferences of pros, manufacturers, magazines, and amateur riders. As a scientist, every publication I submit has to end with a statement of any possible conflicts of interest (so readers can know whether to trust what I've just told them), so it's just sort of my nature to throw that type of caveat to the end of my statement that some could say that his business might have benefited from his publication of his findings. Of course, a more clear reading of the timeline would probably say, his research found this result, he published it, he saw there there was a lack of businesses taking advantage of his understanding, so he did it. And it's not like he's challenging the Continentals or Schwalbes of the world in terms of sales volume even so (and he doesn't even sell frames that take advantage of his ideas about planing).
I think Jan does a pretty good job of pointing out his potential conflicts. Better than most bike magazines anyway. And the products definitely came after the testing, not the other way. He's a True Believer, not a shill.

I like his magazine, have subscribed from day 1, but it might be confirmation bias. You tend to like writers who say things that you already agree with. I've been promoting the benefits of fatter tires and frame flex since the '70s... I raced on Del Mondos when everyone else thought they were just needlessly heavy and "slow". And the third frame I ever made, in '77 at age 19, was a Herse-inspired rando/campeur with thin light tubing (had custom racks but not optimized for heavy loads, more rando than campeur). I was lucky to have a mentor who was into French and Japanese constructeurs, so I got an early exposure to them.

So Jan didn't invent these ideas (nor did I!) but he sure picked up the baton and ran with it. What do you all think, is he a big part of why pros are riding wider tires now? Hard to say, could be "parallel evolution", but I'm inclined to say Yes.

The pros are still being stupid about tire width though IMHO. All these flats in the cobblestone classics, so unnecessary. To win or place in one of those monuments can be the highlight of your career. The first strong guy to try 48+ mm supple tires will have such an advantage he'll be hard to beat. Seems obvious to me, but to the best of my knowledge, not one of them has tried it.

Wait, is there a UCI rule disallowing fatter tires? Sounds like the kind of stupid pointless rule those jerks would have... I know they do put a max width on cyclocross tires.

Mark B
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Old 08-10-22, 04:58 PM
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I'd say he was a big influence on the wider tires. If nothing else for showing that the perfectly smooth roller as a test for rolling resistance wasn't the be-all and end-all of testing. Not sure his roll down method is perfect either, but it is definitely a great compliment.
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Old 08-10-22, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bulgie View Post
Wait, is there a UCI rule disallowing fatter tires?
Not currently, but after reading your post they probably will.
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Old 08-10-22, 05:38 PM
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Given the new trend that super wide forks and seatstays might be more aero, it would seem to allow for fat tires. Allowing fat tires and dropper seatposts at the same time might cause someone at the UCI to faint from "the vapors" though.
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Old 08-10-22, 07:59 PM
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As Mark mentioned above, the UCI began regulating maximum tire size for cyclocross events several years ago. I'd bet money that if a trend emerged among particular riders/teams in the pro peloton to use much wider tires than the norm and if they clearly gained some advantage by it, then a similar ruling may come about for sanctioned road racing as well.

-Gregory
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Old 08-11-22, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Kilroy1988 View Post
As Mark mentioned above, the UCI began regulating maximum tire size for cyclocross events several years ago. I'd bet money that if a trend emerged among particular riders/teams in the pro peloton to use much wider tires than the norm and if they clearly gained some advantage by it, then a similar ruling may come about for sanctioned road racing as well.

-Gregory
If I remember correctly (but it's quite likely that I don't), the UCI put in the tire width restriction on cyclocross bikes after mountain bikes started gaining popularity in the US. They didn't want mountain bikes lining up with cyclocross bikes, so that's one of the rules they put in. You could still race a mountain bike in a cyclocross race in the United States, though, as long as you didn't mind the side glances from your competitors.
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Old 08-11-22, 01:28 PM
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And I traded my 100.00 purchase for a set of touring wheels with Phil wood hubs. My stress is gone!
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Old 08-11-22, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 52telecaster View Post
And I traded my 100.00 purchase for a set of touring wheels with Phil wood hubs. My stress is gone!
Since it looked like you were a bit more of an investment away from getting it on the road that sounds like a wise deal! My dream for the Peloton I have is to get an 853 Mercian Pro Lugless made that's actually the right size for me and swap all of those nice Ultegra components over.

-Gregory
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Old 08-11-22, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Kilroy1988 View Post
Since it looked like you were a bit more of an investment away from getting it on the road that sounds like a wise deal! My dream for the Peloton I have is to get an 853 Mercian Pro Lugless made that's actually the right size for me and swap all of those nice Ultegra components over.

-Gregory
Nice plan!
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Old 08-11-22, 04:06 PM
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On the question of stiffness, I have a relatively recent experience that points to the wheels/rims as a major factor. I have a custom Waltly Ti bike that sees most of my miles. Last year, I became carbon curious and sprang for a fairly expensive carbon wheelset from BTLOS. They arrived, weighed less than a feather, and I mounted them up with the 700 x 38mm tires that I had been running on an alu set of wheels. Did a bunch of riding, including a century and a 230-mile 3-day tour and just felt like the bike had become somewhat sluggish, particularly when climbing. I attributed it to my being in early season physical condition, but then figured I’d go back to the previous wheels. Voilŗ! The springy ride, the return on my effort, all of the reasons I prefer this bike over most others had returned! The only variable I changed was the wheels, not the tires, the rider, the frame. I assume they’re just kind of overbuilt and unduly inflexible.

Now I didn’t learn my lesson and this year went for some very lightweight and relatively cheap Chinese carbon wheels from a vendor on AliExpress. These were very springy! And on the same route for a 3-day tour as the previous one, I hit a pothole on a fast descent and destroyed both front and rear rims (front tire went flat, bot not the rear). It’s unclear if I’ve learned my lesson.
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Old 08-11-22, 04:38 PM
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I'd go for the Phil hubs too @52telecaster . Good job trading. You got what you want and someone got a really nice bike.

It is odd for me because during my influential teens and early 20's, I didn't see the value in Phil hubs. Phil grease, yea, but the hubs were pricey. Recently, I paid $125 for a bike because it had vintage Phil hubs and Super Champion rims. I don't mind repacking bearings on my ball bearing hubs. But I have to admit that the Phil hubs I bought were probably 30 or more years old. They spun so smoothly that it bothered me. Grease creates drag and these had almost no drag. I was concerned that the grease had dried up. So, I removed the dust seals on three sides (I couldn't get the SunTour freewheel of to get to the last dust seal) and they had grease in them that still looks good. It was no longer green. More of an olive or Guden's mustard color, but the consistency and slipperiness is still there. So, I'm won over in my old age.

I still do like the looks of some vintage hubs over the tomato can look of the Phil hubs.



Another VeloMule rant. Sorry. Maybe I should have just left it at "I'd go for the Phil hubs too.". Enjoy the new wheels.

This is on my LeTour Luxe


Pictures of the new wheels?
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Old 08-11-22, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Velo Mule View Post
I'd go for the Phil hubs too @52telecaster . Good job trading. You got what you want and someone got a really nice bike.

It is odd for me because during my influential teens and early 20's, I didn't see the value in Phil hubs. Phil grease, yea, but the hubs were pricey. Recently, I paid $125 for a bike because it had vintage Phil hubs and Super Champion rims. I don't mind repacking bearings on my ball bearing hubs. But I have to admit that the Phil hubs I bought were probably 30 or more years old. They spun so smoothly that it bothered me. Grease creates drag and these had almost no drag. I was concerned that the grease had dried up. So, I removed the dust seals on three sides (I couldn't get the SunTour freewheel of to get to the last dust seal) and they had grease in them that still looks good. It was no longer green. More of an olive or Guden's mustard color, but the consistency and slipperiness is still there. So, I'm won over in my old age.

I still do like the looks of some vintage hubs over the tomato can look of the Phil hubs.



Another VeloMule rant. Sorry. Maybe I should have just left it at "I'd go for the Phil hubs too.". Enjoy the new wheels.

This is on my LeTour Luxe


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When I actually get them. I think tomorrow.
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Old 08-11-22, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. 66 View Post
I like the tubing, I have it in the Rocky Mountain Sherpa.
Hello, do you mind me sending you a PM on this?
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Old 08-11-22, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 52telecaster View Post

And I traded my 100.00 purchase for a set of touring wheels with Phil wood hubs. My stress is gone!
All's well that ends well

DD
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Old 08-11-22, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post

...I hit a pothole on a fast descent and destroyed both front and rear rims...
You know, I thought you'd posted a pic of at least one of the borked rims in a recent post, but damned if I can find it. Did I imagine that?

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Old 08-11-22, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
You know, I thought you'd posted a pic of at least one of the borked rims in a recent post, but damned if I can find it. Did I imagine that?

DD

Front




Rear:
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Old 08-11-22, 08:47 PM
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Thanks - now I know I'm not crazy

Knowing now how the damage occurred, it sounds like you were mighty lucky not to end up on the deck, particularly with a flat front tire in addition to the carbon fiber mayhem.

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Old 08-11-22, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
Thanks - now I know I'm not crazy

Knowing now how the damage occurred, it sounds like you were mighty lucky not to end up on the deck, particularly with a flat front tire in addition to the carbon fiber mayhem.

DD
Yeah, youíre right though Iíve experienced other emergency stops that have felt more dicey (and crashes, too). One factor in my favor is that I have disc brakes on this bike, so stopping power wasnít affected by the borked rims. I actually replaced the front tube and tried to ride, but it was a no go, and I didnít realize the rear rim was borked until after my long walk to civilization.
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Old 08-12-22, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by nlerner View Post
Yeah, youíre right though Iíve experienced other emergency stops that have felt more dicey (and crashes, too). One factor in my favor is that I have disc brakes on this bike, so stopping power wasnít affected by the borked rims. I actually replaced the front tube and tried to ride, but it was a no go, and I didnít realize the rear rim was borked until after my long walk to civilization.
Sounds like a terrifying experience. My last good crash had folks wanting me to get in an ambulance, which I refused. Bikes are amazing and fortunately when bad things happen we can usually limp away.
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Old 08-12-22, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Velo Mule View Post
I'd go for the Phil hubs too @52telecaster . Good job trading. You got what you want and someone got a really nice bike.

It is odd for me because during my influential teens and early 20's, I didn't see the value in Phil hubs. Phil grease, yea, but the hubs were pricey. Recently, I paid $125 for a bike because it had vintage Phil hubs and Super Champion rims. I don't mind repacking bearings on my ball bearing hubs. But I have to admit that the Phil hubs I bought were probably 30 or more years old. They spun so smoothly that it bothered me. Grease creates drag and these had almost no drag. I was concerned that the grease had dried up. So, I removed the dust seals on three sides (I couldn't get the SunTour freewheel of to get to the last dust seal) and they had grease in them that still looks good. It was no longer green. More of an olive or Guden's mustard color, but the consistency and slipperiness is still there. So, I'm won over in my old age.

I still do like the looks of some vintage hubs over the tomato can look of the Phil hubs.



Another VeloMule rant. Sorry. Maybe I should have just left it at "I'd go for the Phil hubs too.". Enjoy the new wheels.

This is on my LeTour Luxe


Pictures of the new wheels?
I only got the front today. The back has a sachs freewheel for which I don't have a tool. So I get the rear tomorrow. Anyway they match so here's the front.


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