Spoke broke again....
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Spoke broke again....
Last summer I went for a 20 mile ride on this bike and about two-miles shy of home I heard a noise and the rear brake started rubbing badly. Today I took the same bike on the same ride and just as I pulled into my driveway, which is on a steep grade, I heard a loud "twang" and the same thing happened. Not surprised as this wheel was badly out of true, out of round and had pretty rusty spokes before I cleaned it up and straightened it out, and it has gone a thousand miles or more over the last year. Hopefully I will be able to throw another spoke in this weekend and get it back on the road for another year.
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So...is there a question? Sounds and looks like that wheel is hammered.
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I have not had any questions since 1998. I just thought it was amusing and lucky to have two spokes break at the end of two identical rides on the same bike two years in a row. Here's to next summer..........
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It obviously needs more than a spoke. Get a new rim and new spokes and rebuild the thing.
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It is likely you will continue to break spoke after spoke based on the condition you describe.
You'll save a lot of money and aggravation by having all the spokes replaced at one time.
If you're a heavy person consider having them replaced with a larger diameter spoke. We just did a wheel with 22 gauge spokes...it should hold up but it is for a heavy person...we'll see.
You'll save a lot of money and aggravation by having all the spokes replaced at one time.
If you're a heavy person consider having them replaced with a larger diameter spoke. We just did a wheel with 22 gauge spokes...it should hold up but it is for a heavy person...we'll see.
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Spoke broke at either the nipple or the elbow. That's where spokes fatigue out. Your bike is old. The wheels are old. They don't have an infinite fatigue life.
When you reach the end of the fatigue life of a spoke it will break at one of the natural stress risers in the geometry of the spoke: elbow/head, thread. If the tension balance isn't correct or the wheel was never properly stress relieved, etc then the fatigue life of the spokes will be shortened.
All of this led to the axiom that we use in the wheel industry: break one spoke-Replace it. Break the second spoke - Replace it. Break the third and it's time to re-spoke the wheel.
We have that axiom because a spoke can have all sorts of weird one off issues that might cause it to have a lower fatigue life or simply to fail earlier (inclusions, damage, etc). But by the time it happens to 3 of them in close succession then that is a clear indication that you are at the end of the fatigue life for all the spokes and it's time to simply replace them.
While you are at it replace the rim because rims of that generation are like floppy wet noodles.
When you reach the end of the fatigue life of a spoke it will break at one of the natural stress risers in the geometry of the spoke: elbow/head, thread. If the tension balance isn't correct or the wheel was never properly stress relieved, etc then the fatigue life of the spokes will be shortened.
All of this led to the axiom that we use in the wheel industry: break one spoke-Replace it. Break the second spoke - Replace it. Break the third and it's time to re-spoke the wheel.
We have that axiom because a spoke can have all sorts of weird one off issues that might cause it to have a lower fatigue life or simply to fail earlier (inclusions, damage, etc). But by the time it happens to 3 of them in close succession then that is a clear indication that you are at the end of the fatigue life for all the spokes and it's time to simply replace them.
While you are at it replace the rim because rims of that generation are like floppy wet noodles.
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I think the steel rims on old ten speeds are much stronger than a lot of newer alloy rims. I think some Schwinn rims were carbon steel, I tried bending them to fit them into the trash and had to give up and cut them into pieces with a saw.
Redoing the entire wheel sounds like a nice project for next winter, for now I will just throw in another spoke so I can ride the bike in that time-trial coming up in a month.
Redoing the entire wheel sounds like a nice project for next winter, for now I will just throw in another spoke so I can ride the bike in that time-trial coming up in a month.
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Well, to each his own.
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Spoke broke at either the nipple or the elbow. That's where spokes fatigue out. Your bike is old. The wheels are old. They don't have an infinite fatigue life.
When you reach the end of the fatigue life of a spoke it will break at one of the natural stress risers in the geometry of the spoke: elbow/head, thread. If the tension balance isn't correct or the wheel was never properly stress relieved, etc then the fatigue life of the spokes will be shortened.
All of this led to the axiom that we use in the wheel industry: break one spoke-Replace it. Break the second spoke - Replace it. Break the third and it's time to re-spoke the wheel.
We have that axiom because a spoke can have all sorts of weird one off issues that might cause it to have a lower fatigue life or simply to fail earlier (inclusions, damage, etc). But by the time it happens to 3 of them in close succession then that is a clear indication that you are at the end of the fatigue life for all the spokes and it's time to simply replace them.
While you are at it replace the rim because rims of that generation are like floppy wet noodles.
When you reach the end of the fatigue life of a spoke it will break at one of the natural stress risers in the geometry of the spoke: elbow/head, thread. If the tension balance isn't correct or the wheel was never properly stress relieved, etc then the fatigue life of the spokes will be shortened.
All of this led to the axiom that we use in the wheel industry: break one spoke-Replace it. Break the second spoke - Replace it. Break the third and it's time to re-spoke the wheel.
We have that axiom because a spoke can have all sorts of weird one off issues that might cause it to have a lower fatigue life or simply to fail earlier (inclusions, damage, etc). But by the time it happens to 3 of them in close succession then that is a clear indication that you are at the end of the fatigue life for all the spokes and it's time to simply replace them.
While you are at it replace the rim because rims of that generation are like floppy wet noodles.
If I re-spoked wheels every time one broke, I'd have been doing it every 500 miles!
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Since I started building my own wheels over 20 years ago, I've never broken a spoke. I do 2 things: use a Park TM1 tensiometer and double-butted 14-15-14 (2.0-1.8-2.0) spokes. Double-butted spokes are much less likely to break and they put less stress on the places where they commonly break. On our tandem, I use CX-Ray spokes and also never broke one. It's my belief that heavier spokes are more likely to break, not less. When I wear out a rim with my rim brakes, I lace in a new rim using the same spokes. I'm slow, so it takes me a couple hours to do that.
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I am reasonably fortunate, but I'd get it respoked after one spoke breaks and it's limped home out of true. If one failed, another could be nearing its limit, and they were all overstressed in the limp home. No desire to break another.
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It is likely you will continue to break spoke after spoke based on the condition you describe.
You'll save a lot of money and aggravation by having all the spokes replaced at one time.
If you're a heavy person consider having them replaced with a larger diameter spoke. We just did a wheel with 22 gauge spokes...it should hold up but it is for a heavy person...we'll see.
You'll save a lot of money and aggravation by having all the spokes replaced at one time.
If you're a heavy person consider having them replaced with a larger diameter spoke. We just did a wheel with 22 gauge spokes...it should hold up but it is for a heavy person...we'll see.
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Since I started building my own wheels over 20 years ago, I've never broken a spoke. I do 2 things: use a Park TM1 tensiometer and double-butted 14-15-14 (2.0-1.8-2.0) spokes. Double-butted spokes are much less likely to break and they put less stress on the places where they commonly break. On our tandem, I use CX-Ray spokes and also never broke one. It's my belief that heavier spokes are more likely to break, not less. When I wear out a rim with my rim brakes, I lace in a new rim using the same spokes. I'm slow, so it takes me a couple hours to do that.
Spokes fail because of fatigue. Fatigue life is determined by the stress cycle that loading and un-loading a spoke goes through with it's relation to it's tensile strength.
"Double-butted spokes are much less likely to break and they put less stress on the places where they commonly break" - incorrect. Most double butted spokes that we use (2-1.8-2) made out of the stainless alloys we tend to use just happened to hit the sweet spot where the stress induced by the appropriate tension needed to build the wheel and dish it correctly places the delta of the stress cycle in just the right sweet spot to give us a great (long) fatigue life for the most susceptible spokes (non-drive side) for the weights and loading we do most commonly on bikes. The double butted spoke in and of itself doesn't do anything different with how the spokes apply a load and its resulting stress. Spokes are simple tension carrying members. The shapes are meaningless as long as they transfer the tension. The only time the shape comes into account is when the spoke is a) aerodynamic or b) in determination of it's stress which is a function of its cross-sectional area for the load it carries.
You could make square spokes if you'd like but they'd be hard to draw. This is also why we an use fiber spokes (basically a rope as spokes).
"On our tandem, I use CX-Ray spokes and also never broke one" - congrats but this is the equivalent of saying, "I use the premium rope from Home Depot and I have never had it snap...and I lift heavy things." The CX Ray has an extremely high fatigue life. One of the highest available in readily available spokes. This is because in order to create a CX Ray they take a laser and then forge/form/shape it into the oval profile of the CX Ray. This working of it is cold working that moves the grain structure enough to make it "harder". The result is a spoke with a higher tensile strength and therefore higher corresponding fatigue life. The tradeoff is that it is MUCH more brittle because of how hard it is. There's always a tradeoff. How does that show up in your wheels? if you got a stick in your wheel those CX rays is way more likely to snap than bend. The double butted spoke is more likely the bend than snap in the same scenario.
"When I wear out a rim with my rim brakes, I lace in a new rim using the same spokes. " - absolutely. I have done this as well hundreds of times over the years when customers get in wrecks or wear out a rim. BUT you must know that by continuing to use the same spokes in a new rim you haven't "reset" the fatigue life of the spokes. If they were halfway through their fatigue life they will still be halfway through their fatigue life.
Also - not that you mention this really but - not breaking a spoke is not much of any sort of accomplishment. Well built wheels almost never need a replacement spoke unless you truly have gotten to the fatigue life of them (varies by the rider and application but I know of wheels of mine that are closer to 200,000 miles than 100,000 and they have had no issues). If you end up breaking spokes "earlier" then it's the build quality, spoke material, loading and riding style. Any spoke manufacturer can have a bum spoke or two. I have even seen inclusions in spokes that would have resulted in failures regardless of build, etc.
So...spokes don't determine stiffness or durability. Spoke count and rim area moment of inertia will determine the stiffness. Lacing pattern is near meaningless as well (~1% in stiffness effect) outside of disc brakes and for considerations for flange durability (tangential is best)
I have a blog post about it on my wheel site somewhere but, yeah. Most wheel builders don't even really understand this stuff BTW.
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I've noticed even if you haven't, that most broken spoke tales on BF involve un-butted spokes. By the same reasoning, butted spokes are less likely to create cracks in rims. The changes in stress are lower.
The same reasoning applies to our tandem. As long as the ends of the spokes are strong enough and the spokes are not so thin as to cause the wheel to bend laterally too much, all is well. It's my understanding that wheels which are too stiff laterally fail more quickly, same reasoning.
.
Of course I understand that re-using spokes does not extend their life! Good grief. Maybe someday I'll hit the fatigue life of one of my spokes, but I doubt it. I might mention that I extend my spoke life further by using deep section alu rims on the bikes I use the most, with 36H rims on the tandem.
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Anyway, took the wheel out of the bike tonight, took off the tire and freewheel and almost magically found a spoke with nipple the right length laying in my garage on one of the shelves al by itself, weird. I will true up the wheel, make sure the end of the spoke is not proud of the nipple
When I originally went over the bike I had to put a dozen or so spokes in the back wheel because they broke while trying to true it up, either from the nipple being seized on it's threads or the spoke just being rust pitted enough to snap.
While the bike is apart I have a set of much better tires I am going to throw on it, and I think I will adjust the brakes and make sure the brake arms are twisted the right way for the proper shoe contact. Then it should be ready for the time-trial next month.
When I originally went over the bike I had to put a dozen or so spokes in the back wheel because they broke while trying to true it up, either from the nipple being seized on it's threads or the spoke just being rust pitted enough to snap.
While the bike is apart I have a set of much better tires I am going to throw on it, and I think I will adjust the brakes and make sure the brake arms are twisted the right way for the proper shoe contact. Then it should be ready for the time-trial next month.
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Ha... Took me a day and a half just to change out spokes. If your slow that makes me??? Well I don't know what...
But really it has been worth it. I never really considered building my own wheels until recently as the prices have gone up so high. Normally I just get some machine built wheels then loosen them all up and true them down again. Recently I have had to re-lace two good condition Wheel Master wheels due to the spokes not holding up.
The OP looks like he is showing steel rim wheels and getting another used wheel set should not be a hard problem. I do think it is well worth the time and effort to learn how to properly tension and true your wheels. Taking your bike to a bike shop is just not economically feasible now days and often ya still end up doing some tuning yourself even after you have paid someone else to do it...
Do note that I feel for today's small bike shop owners and workers. I really don't see them lasting long. I suspect Dealerships will soon rule the roost...
But really it has been worth it. I never really considered building my own wheels until recently as the prices have gone up so high. Normally I just get some machine built wheels then loosen them all up and true them down again. Recently I have had to re-lace two good condition Wheel Master wheels due to the spokes not holding up.
The OP looks like he is showing steel rim wheels and getting another used wheel set should not be a hard problem. I do think it is well worth the time and effort to learn how to properly tension and true your wheels. Taking your bike to a bike shop is just not economically feasible now days and often ya still end up doing some tuning yourself even after you have paid someone else to do it...
Do note that I feel for today's small bike shop owners and workers. I really don't see them lasting long. I suspect Dealerships will soon rule the roost...
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Ha... Took me a day and a half just to change out spokes. If your slow that makes me??? Well I don't know what...
But really it has been worth it. I never really considered building my own wheels until recently as the prices have gone up so high. Normally I just get some machine built wheels then loosen them all up and true them down again. Recently I have had to re-lace two good condition Wheel Master wheels due to the spokes not holding up.
The OP looks like he is showing steel rim wheels and getting another used wheel set should not be a hard problem. I do think it is well worth the time and effort to learn how to properly tension and true your wheels. Taking your bike to a bike shop is just not economically feasible now days and often ya still end up doing some tuning yourself even after you have paid someone else to do it...
Do note that I feel for today's small bike shop owners and workers. I really don't see them lasting long. I suspect Dealerships will soon rule the roost...
But really it has been worth it. I never really considered building my own wheels until recently as the prices have gone up so high. Normally I just get some machine built wheels then loosen them all up and true them down again. Recently I have had to re-lace two good condition Wheel Master wheels due to the spokes not holding up.
The OP looks like he is showing steel rim wheels and getting another used wheel set should not be a hard problem. I do think it is well worth the time and effort to learn how to properly tension and true your wheels. Taking your bike to a bike shop is just not economically feasible now days and often ya still end up doing some tuning yourself even after you have paid someone else to do it...
Do note that I feel for today's small bike shop owners and workers. I really don't see them lasting long. I suspect Dealerships will soon rule the roost...
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Doesn't that make you concerned that the other two dozen you left in are on the brink of failure and could easily cause a catastrophic mess should more than one or two snap at the same time?
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Yeah, dead wheels just aren't worth it. OTOH, you have the hubs. All you need is spokes, rims, and a TM1. You'll be very happy you did the build, like for years.
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I do think it is well worth the time and effort to learn how to properly tension and true your wheels. Taking your bike to a bike shop is just not economically feasible now days and often ya still end up doing some tuning yourself even after you have paid someone else to do it...Do note that I feel for today's small bike shop owners and workers. I really don't see them lasting long. I suspect Dealerships will soon rule the roost...