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Overspreading a steel frame? Rear wheel not inline anymore...

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Overspreading a steel frame? Rear wheel not inline anymore...

Old 12-02-20, 07:43 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Millstone
...I might even do an Eroica on it...
Jan, sounds like this is a special bike for you, if so I would listen to Doug Fattic. I have cold set two frames with Sheldon's method thinking they were OK and then a beat up custom Reynolds 753r that was luckily my perfect geometry came along that I bought for the DA groupset. Reynolds engineers published warnings that 753 could not be cold set after brazing. The frame could not be ridden, fork pulled hard left, string show frame off as well. Being a mechanical engineer and retired after years in maintenance I gave the fork a go. It would align on my cast iron table but snap back when I mounted the bike. Took it to local framebuilder who used his Marchetti frame and fork tables to cold set. I then could ride around the block no hands, this was ~5 or 6 years ago and it has thousands of beautiful miles. I can not remember what I paid but am sure it was not much as I would not have put the money out for this frame that badly needed a respray at the time.
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Old 12-02-20, 08:20 AM
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Jan, another dutch framebuilder I'm acquainted with is Caspar Drenth. I don't have contact information on him any more. I'm not sure of his frame building status now either. I met him somewhere in the middle of the Netherlands when he took me to a bicycle distributor. I am involved in a charity bicycle project in Ukraine and my flights often go through Amsterdam. I work with a few Dutch companies to help supply us the parts we need (like Hessling chain cases) to make bicycles in Ukraine. He knew I was/am a bicycle frame building instructor and we were able to help each other out. When Marten G. came to the States a few years ago for a bike show, he stayed with me a week while I showed him how to paint using one of his frames.
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Old 12-02-20, 10:50 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo
Doug out here making me wish I lived in Niles, Michigan, so I could pop into his shop with a few frames! Good stuff...
There are frame builders in NYC and probably also in Nassau County.
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Old 12-02-20, 11:43 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
the tools and knowledge required does not lend itself well for an amateur home mechanic to be able to do a good job. That doesn't mean it is impossible but just that a typical or average person is unlikely to do so.
Hear hear. Let this be the last word on this 'just spread your frame with a 2X4 on a garage floor' talk. Keep your 126mm frame at 126mm. Keep your 120mm frame at 120mm.
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Old 12-02-20, 11:54 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee
Keep your 120mm frame at 120mm.
I did with my grocery getter. 5-speeds works well for that, and the stronger rear wheel gives me confidence to load the pannier.

But I'm a lot happier with my 1960 Paramount's spread frame (using a 2x4) and its new 7-speed cluster.

Did the same with my new 1972 Torpado! The Campy Record shifting works a lot better for me over 6- and 7-speeds. And it was a free upgrade!

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Old 12-02-20, 12:30 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa
I did with my grocery getter. 5-speeds works well for that, and the stronger rear wheel gives me confidence to load the pannier.

But I'm a lot happier with my 1960 Paramount's spread frame (using a 2x4) and its new 7-speed cluster.

Did the same with my new 1972 Torpado! The Campy Record shifting works a lot better for me over 6- and 7-speeds. And it was a free upgrade!

I agree that a hobbyist can DIY this. I've done it few times and have also just shoved a wheel in the rear triangle. Either way, it all worked for me. Doug Fattic's post is right (and much appreciated! I love when the pros post here) that you won't ever approach a pro without some serious tools. If you want perfect frame alignment, or more advanced steel like 753 mentioned above then go to a pro, but for most riders you can get totally away with it.
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Old 12-02-20, 01:02 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by noglider
There are frame builders in NYC and probably also in Nassau County.
Jamie Swann, for one. Northport.
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Old 12-02-20, 01:04 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by noglider
There are frame builders in NYC and probably also in Nassau County.
Any names you can share off the top of your head? I've done a little bit of research (not a deep dive, mind you), and didn't find anything convincing. It was a while ago now, but my impression of most was that they were sort of hypster types that got into frame building because it seemed cool, and they wanted to build some funky bikes. I'm looking for someone more traditional, with experience, that doesn't mind simply tidying something up, and won't be bored because it's just some 'stock' bike. Does that make sense?
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Old 12-02-20, 01:15 PM
  #34  
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@robertorolfo, @ascherer nailed it. Jamie Swan has been doing it for a long time, and he's got all the white hair. Very nice guy, too. I've met him a few times, such as at the Brooklyn Bike Jumble, and I think he came on the Ruff Stuff ride in October (but not this year). Ruff Stuff rides the Old Croton Aqueduct Trail and is a big pile o' fun.
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Old 12-02-20, 01:24 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by noglider
I used the threaded rod method to spread a frame recently. The same thing went wrong for me. So I corrected it with the Sheldon Brown method that @nlerner cites, and all is good now.
The threaded rod is good if you need to spread both sides the same, because it should automatically do that. If you have ended up with an asymmetry the first thing is to correct that and then if it's overall too wide or too narrow you can go with the threaded rod from there.
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Old 12-02-20, 01:26 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee
Hear hear. Let this be the last word on this 'just spread your frame with a 2X4 on a garage floor' talk. Keep your 126mm frame at 126mm. Keep your 120mm frame at 120mm.
Some live in their safe little box and some are adventurous and wander out of it. I'll be be the wanderer! Live life, loosen up, spread a little frame! Come on, deep down inside you know you want to!
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Old 12-02-20, 01:26 PM
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Wow, this thread is chock full of information, lots of good info! Definitely one of the best discussions on this subject I have ever come across.

Thanks especially to Doug Fattic for chiming in with such a clear explanation of generating complete bike frame alignment!

At one time, I modified a crankarm by extending it and adding a bent-wire indicator. I decided that (with my inability to confirm the accuracy of both the threaded bores and faces of the bb shell) I should only reference off of my as-installed, symmetrical 112mm bottom bracket spindle.
This was when I was developing my Pedersen race bike, on which I had to move everything around quite a bit, starting with spreading from 114mm to 130mm, increasing rear tire clearances, aligning seat tubes and then the front end. I would eventually break it in a couple of places while racing, but left repairs to professionals like Hugh Enox and Steve Rex. It still rides straight today.

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Old 12-02-20, 02:59 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by guy153
The threaded rod is good if you need to spread both sides the same, because it should automatically do that. If you have ended up with an asymmetry the first thing is to correct that and then if it's overall too wide or too narrow you can go with the threaded rod from there.
The rod presses equally on both sides but the two sides of the frame are of different stiffnesses since the drive side has a dimple for the chainring. That's why when I used it, the drive side bent out more than the non-drive side.
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Old 12-02-20, 03:59 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by noglider
The rod presses equally on both sides but the two sides of the frame are of different stiffnesses since the drive side has a dimple for the chainring. That's why when I used it, the drive side bent out more than the non-drive side.
They don't all have dimples.

But it is true, the threaded rod method cannot be trusted. Even a set of stays with no (or symmetrical) dimples may well not bend equally. Doing them one at a time makes it so much easier to be sure you finish with them in the right place.
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Old 12-02-20, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
This process because of the tools and knowledge required does not lend itself well for an amateur home mechanic to be able to do a good job. That doesn't mean it is impossible but just that a typical or average person is unlikely to do so.
Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee
Hear hear. Let this be the last word on this 'just spread your frame with a 2X4 on a garage floor' talk. Keep your 126mm frame at 126mm. Keep your 120mm frame at 120mm.
What I took away from @Doug Fattic's post was that if the fork and the main triangle of the frame are not well aligned a hobbyist will not be able to correct the error and will likely compound the problem when attempting to cold set the rear dropouts. I also understood from Doug's post that a hobbyist probably won't have the means to determine if the fork and main triangle are properly aligned to begin with and that in many cases they are not. That's a very significant caveat and not to be taken lightly.

That said, as a hobbyist, I would infer from this information that if the main triangle and fork are properly aligned to begin with, I can possibly cold set the rear dropouts using the methods described earlier in this thread whether that be Sheldon Brown's 2x4 and string method or RJ the Bike Guy's DIY tools. As a hobbyist, if I tell myself that I can certainly do this and there is no risk that I'll screw it up, I'm deluding myself. However, most of us understand that with anything we do there is a chance that we're going screw it up. So it comes down to risk tolerance and risk management.

This is a very common theme in the C&V bike world. There are questions that come up over and over -- Should I repaint this bike? Should I build it with modern components? Should I have braze-ons added? Should I convert it to 650B? If your mental model of a C&V bike is something like Confente number 1, every one of these questions will make you cringe. If your mental model of a C&V bike is an early 70's Schwinn Varsity, your response should be to shrug and say, "It's your bike, do whatever makes you happy." Most C&V bikes are somewhere between these two extremes, but I would argue that the vast majority of the bikes that most of us come across -- and certainly the majority that we're considering tinkering with -- are much closer to the Varsity.

So I ask myself questions. How rare is this bike? How valuable is it in its current state? Is what I'm doing irreversible? These questions guide the hobbyist in risk assessment when doing something like cold setting the dropouts. Cold setting by a hobbyist has a small chance of destroying the frame entirely and is semi-irreversible. That must be considered. But let's be realistic about the frames we're working on. I don't know enough about the OP's Benotto, so I'll offer one of my own bikes as an example. I had a 1972 Motobecane Grand Record in very rough cosmetic condition. It's a nice frame -- good bones, Reynolds 531 -- but IMO not particularly special. There have been five of them in much better condition sold on eBay in the past two months. I asked myself the questions above -- the bike is not very rare, it was worth about $40 in the state I bought it in, and what I wanted to do to it (braze-ons, cold setting, powder coating, replacement decals) was completely irreversible. Risk assessment says...go for it. Before:



After:



Full disclosure: because I was sinking a lot of money into this frame, I paid @gugie to cold set the rear along with adding the braze-ons. However, I think this would have been a fine candidate for me to tinker with myself.
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Old 12-02-20, 05:02 PM
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My original post mentioned price and got removed, sorry about that.

I second Mr Fattic's response and those in agreement. I took a frame to a local frame builder for alignment, from a string check it was several mm to one side (had been spread who knows how from 126-130). He mentioned when I picked it up the seat tube was slightly askew from original build and he had to straighten that and the front triangle first. He got it in tip top shape and was a pleasure to meet (I kept it at 130). Took a week or two as he just worked on it here and there between brazing tubes and such. I plan to hit him up next time I have a dropout spread or alignment to take care of. If anyone needs a Denver area framebuilder contact let me know via PM.
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Old 12-02-20, 05:24 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by noglider
The rod presses equally on both sides but the two sides of the frame are of different stiffnesses since the drive side has a dimple for the chainring. That's why when I used it, the drive side bent out more than the non-drive side.
Aargh, good point and that's very interesting! I've only ever used it on frames I've been making and so far I've never dimpled the chainstays. I'm sure the day will come when I do though and I will bear this in mind.
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Old 12-02-20, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by ascherer
Jamie Swann, for one. Northport.
Originally Posted by noglider
@robertorolfo, @ascherer nailed it. Jamie Swan has been doing it for a long time, and he's got all the white hair. Very nice guy, too. I've met him a few times, such as at the Brooklyn Bike Jumble, and I think he came on the Ruff Stuff ride in October (but not this year). Ruff Stuff rides the Old Croton Aqueduct Trail and is a big pile o' fun.
Wow, thanks to both of you guys. I just spent the past half-hour reading his complete personal history on his website (so maybe I shouldn't thank you, because I'm supposed to be finish up my work for the day), and he definitely seems like the real deal. White hair is a huge plus in my book.

I have a frame that I recently acquired (a strange Rossin MAX framset) that needs to be aligned (I used the string method and found it a few MM out of whack), so I'm definitely going to reach out and see if it would be worth his time. I'd also like to strip the paint (the previous owner re-painted it themselves, and it's pretty bad), so maybe I'll inquire about that as well.
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Old 12-02-20, 06:34 PM
  #44  
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A piece of string is not a sufficiently accurate tool, it will merely give an indication of where and how to take further action.
I wasted a day of my life today, straightening out a roof gutter that a tradesman had installed using the 'good enough' string method. While this may be good enough for brick courses, where minor mistakes will be corrected by the next course, it is not good enough for gutters which have to be 100% first time.
Just like bike frames.
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Old 12-02-20, 06:56 PM
  #45  
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On the NY frame builder tangent... Dan Visentin in Oyster Bay had a personal track bike at his shop built by a guy on the Island, I think he was a retired engineer of some sort and the bike was from the '90s? It was up high and I never got a good look at it but I think it had extra stays and triangulation built in for stiffness. I'm pretty sure it was yellow, but the most detail I can recall.
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Old 12-02-20, 07:21 PM
  #46  
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I recently discovered Jamie Swan’s work on Instagram via these build photos. A real beauty:











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Old 12-02-20, 08:33 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by aland2
A piece of string is not a sufficiently accurate tool, it will merely give an indication of where and how to take further action.
I wasted a day of my life today, straightening out a roof gutter that a tradesman had installed using the 'good enough' string method. While this may be good enough for brick courses, where minor mistakes will be corrected by the next course, it is not good enough for gutters which have to be 100% first time.
Just like bike frames.
Not to derail the thread, seriously, but a string is actually very useful and accurate when used correctly. Visit Rome sometime to understand the potential...
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Old 12-02-20, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jamesdak
Some live in their safe little box and some are adventurous and wander out of it. I'll be be the wanderer! Live life, loosen up, spread a little frame! Come on, deep down inside you know you want to!
When it comes to the classic bikes that come through our hands, my philosophy is- first, do no harm. Don't do anything that would cause the next owner (And there will be a next owner) to curse you out. The goal should be enjoyment AND preservation.
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Old 12-02-20, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee
When it comes to the classic bikes that come through our hands, my philosophy is- first, do no harm. Don't do anything that would cause the next owner (And there will be a next owner) to curse you out. The goal should be enjoyment AND preservation.
This is subjective, and fine for you. Not universal.

These fine people seem to have differing goals, and are enjoying them. Doubt they care who curses them.
Retro Roadies

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Old 12-02-20, 10:10 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by icemilkcoffee
When it comes to the classic bikes that come through our hands, my philosophy is- first, do no harm. Don't do anything that would cause the next owner (And there will be a next owner) to curse you out. The goal should be enjoyment AND preservation.
Uh oh.......



Sold this to the mechanic who had did the actual upgrade for me. He sure was glad I didn't preserve this one.

Holy crap...is that 11 speed on this too??!! The blasphemy!

What the heck happened to this one??

Campagnolo 10 speed on a 1985 bike, how dare I!!!

WTF**********


LOL, totally just sort of yanking your chain. There bikes, enjoy them however you wish. I honestly have never moved one on that didn't bring a big smile to the new owners face. I cannot confirm or deny that some of the bikes in this post have had their rear end spread.

Some I do keep pretty much true to form, it really comes down to what gives me enjoyment out of them.



And some I'm still in the process of doing unspeakable things too....

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