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The Bike Snob NYC goes full retrogrouch...

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The Bike Snob NYC goes full retrogrouch...

Old 09-26-23, 08:30 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by iab
I think speeding cars should be a priority, nearly nothing is being done about that. Texting while driving is another priority, imo. I can keep going. Why are ebikes your top priority?

...why does starting this thread define e-bikes as my top priority ? Why can't I have multiple issues of concern ? Why is this an either or issue ?

To be clear, you referenced a set of laws that have been widely adopted thanks to a manufacturer's lobbying push on a national level. They're based on "model legislation", drafted by the industry and their lobbying arm. They're sold on the concept that this lobbying group represents the common interests of cyclists. Which is questionable at this point. They do represent a certain demographic, and they certainly represent the people making and selling e-bikes.

My impression is that they were adopted without any real world experience in how the results would play out. They are now playing out. Enforcement is just not a part of the program. So we now have a set of laws that, even if they were followed by all users, would be problematic because of the speed differentials and experience levels already mentioned a couple of times. But that doesn't really matter, because a set of laws that are based on the honor system usually don't work out well in the real world. There's a historical exception in the case of Vigilance Committees. But stringing up a few people as an example is frowned upon in the 21st Century.
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Old 09-26-23, 08:37 PM
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Like the Snob says, itís the Wild West here in the big city. Gasoline powered ďmopedsĒ now fly through bike lanes, and the cops arenít able or interested in doing anything about it. Knuckleheads on all manner of unlicensed, motorized vehicles driving like maniacs and stinking up the neighborhood. Things are going in the wrong direction, and people *are* getting hurt.

My take is that if itís speed regulated, weighs less than say 70 pounds, isnít gasoline powered, and the rider isnít a knucklehead Iím generally ok with it being in the bike lane. But it can be hard to get a four of a kind.

And then thereís the carsÖ

I think itís relevant to point out that urban, suburban and rural cyclists are all going to have different experiences, perspectives and priorities when it comes to this discussion.

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Old 09-26-23, 08:44 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by curbtender
Had to chuckle at the e-shoe comment. ...
...the video link in the original article goes to an entertaining Youtube posting, on some guy testing out his new, $1400 e-rollerskates.
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Old 09-26-23, 08:45 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by TenGrainBread
I like Eben but this grouchiness doesn't even make sense.

1. The existence of e-bikes and scooters does not mean that the traditional bicycle or bicycle trails and lanes are going to disappear. In fact the increase in trail/lane usage just means more infrastructure will be built and maintained.
2. From what I can tell, for most e-bike riders the situation is not "I used to ride a normal bike and now I ride an e-bike". Many of these people would not have ridden at all. So we begrudge this technology that brings people to outdoor exercise because...we don't like getting passed by e-bikes?
3. In urban and suburban areas, less car rides means less combustion engine emissions means cleaner air and safer roads for cyclists. Good trade off for dealing with increase one or two-wheeled traffic.

Iím sorry - but I have to disagree. Iím now seeing gas powered motorcycles on bike lanes here in Colorado, because if you are riding a full throttle e-bike, whatís the difference? If anything, a gas powered motorbike is easier to recharge and no risk of battery fire.

1) anything that can, without any human effort go over 30MPH is ridiculous to be considered MUP compatible.

2) E-bikes are not replacing existing bikersÖ.they are replacing what we used to call newbies.

3) These bikes are by and large (outside of those buying truly designed for dedicated cargo purpose bikes) not replacing cars. They are replacing bikes.

4) When these batteries die, a large portion will have issues with replacement, leaving a large number of these bikes as just heavy bikes. So now tell, what is the environmental impact heading into landfills across the world.


5) Finally - we replaced the bike with basically motorbikes, and all are getting collectively larger asses because of this.
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Old 09-26-23, 08:46 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by jethin
Like the Snob says, itís the Wild West here in the big city. ...
...that is exactly what gave rise to the local Vigilance Committees here, back in the Gold Rush days.
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Old 09-26-23, 09:11 PM
  #31  
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I don't think the e-bikes belong on bike/pedestrian trails and sidewalks. But I don't think the rules would even be enforced if we had them. We barely ticket people driving 20 mph over the speed limit here, let alone enforce bike trail rules . It's a pain but not a priority.

I hate to say it, but on my ride, I live at the level that the thing I most fear is the driver of a large SUV or truck who is drunk, high on weed, or on a cell phone. You can do everything right and still become roadkill on a bike. Yet we all persist because we love it... it does not always have to make sense.

I will admit I had to google "micromobility". I thought it meant a small wheel bike like the Moulton or Raleigh Twenty. My bike preferences are pretty much obsolete as it is, let alone with electro shifting and e-bikes. My website was once cited by an OutdoorOnline article as an example of arcane knowledge for outdated bikes (it was a short guide to rod brakes I wrote a long time ago, if I recall).
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Old 09-26-23, 09:24 PM
  #32  
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Personally, I have zero fear of getting into an accident with an e-bike rider. Yes, bad things can result but nothing remotely bad as getting into a wreck with an SUV or behemoth grocery fetching tool in their Fook-150.
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Old 09-26-23, 10:04 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
Paris officially the first city in Europe to ban e-scooters. What are the rules in other countries?

...not e-bikes, but the somewhat troublesome e-scooter demographic. Do you have public e-scooter rentals in Ann Arbor ? It's pretty hard to miss them here in Sacramento. They end up lying around all over the place.
We do, Spin, and the Spin e-bikes, too.

As for Paris, as one of the most touristed cities in the world, itís an exceptional situation and not relatable to mine or to most American cities.
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Old 09-26-23, 10:45 PM
  #34  
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Chain waxing and e-bikes. Is there a third topic that completes the holy trinity of threads filled with lots of ... words?
(campy vs X perhaps?)

I prefer to work from a position of common interest and agreementó chains should be lubricated somehow and e-scooters and their rental companies are a scourge. The local ER nurses have stronger views on the latter, despite the unusual statistics of squeaky-chain-related ER visits.

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Old 09-26-23, 11:55 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by panzerwagon
Chain waxing and e-bikes. Is there a third topic that completes the holy trinity of threads filled with lots of ... words?
What do you think of Delta brakes?
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Old 09-27-23, 05:54 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by rccardr
This is precisely the kind of posting that for multiple reasons does not belong here.
The slurred typing is apropos (also, pun intended).
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Old 09-27-23, 09:16 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by chaadster
We do, Spin, and the Spin e-bikes, too.

As for Paris, as one of the most touristed cities in the world, itís an exceptional situation and not relatable to mine or to most American cities.
...respectfully, I'm not the one who introduced Paris, as a place where I saw no problems. Also respectfully, we have a pretty large tourism industry here, for a city our size (although not nearly as big as that in San Francisco). The tourists here are not, for the most part, the problem. Over near the state capitol, it was mostly the lunch hour crowd going farther afield in search of a meal (pre-Covid). Now I just avoid that area and take different routes on a weekday. I do see some tourists on rental scooters in Old Sacramento, but they are on unfamiliar ground, thus usually more cautious.

Truthfully, though, the rental scooters were a much worse problem, back when first introduced by a couple of competing companies. The city must have learned something from that fiasco. Whatever deal they have to allow Lime to operate here, has done a much better job of collecting the ones left lying about, in various places where the operator lost interest in the scooter, and dropped it in the bike lane.
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Old 09-27-23, 10:04 AM
  #38  
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I see at least half of the e-bike riders not pedaling at all . I see a few riding on sidewalks in commercial areas "salmoning" through pedestrians and jumping on and off curbs. It is human nature for some to abuse something that can be great for others . I don't think laws are the answer as there are no enforcement procedures in place for laws we already have. As a cyclist I have adjusted my riding to avoid areas where there are more people on various electric powered vehicles. I don't know if I will eventually run out of alternative routes but I don't see anything changing , if anything , it will continue to increase . The bike paths that we have here in Ventura County are pretty nice , scenic and well maintained , but are over run now with the inclusion of electric powered vehicles passing and threading their way through regular bicycles. The reason these threads are so long and wordy is that it really does affect the people (most of us) who just want to ride our bikes and most of us are passionate about just pedaling a bike.
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Old 09-27-23, 10:15 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Kabuki12
... The reason these threads are so long and wordy is that it really does affect the people (most of us) who just want to ride our bikes and most of us are passionate about just pedaling a bike.
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...I honestly do not "get" why suggesting that something new, like this e micro-mobility thing, might not be working out in the same way it was originally envisioned. And thus require some re-evaluation and further regulation. But I don't "get" a lot of things. What I find particularly confusing is the people who contribute comments about how it must be my imagination, because they don't see any problems.

Originally Posted by Chico Marx
Well, who ya gonna believe me or your own eyes?
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Old 09-27-23, 10:32 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by DiabloScott
Bigger menace than eBikes are all the eScooters and eSkateboards and such on the trails. I don't think there's any motivation to license or insure those things, or require operator safety tests.
I warned my kids a few years ago that the future is Transportation Chaos. Here in LA, we have all these - eBikes, eScooters, eSkateboards - but also "Hoverboards" that go off-road, and lots of things that aren't really e-"bikes", more like just hepped-up MoPeds. Every once in a while I see a strange contraption that I can't pin down.

One of my other thoughts about eBikes is that cars have enough trouble judging the speed and behavior of cyclists, and now eBikes are throwing that all out of whack. They can be on you really fast.

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Old 09-27-23, 10:59 AM
  #41  
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Even in such backwaters as Roanoke, VA, there are an increasing number of e-bikes and other powered contrivances out on the greenways. Few of them are actually pedaling, but I've only experienced a few who I would characterize as hazardous or reckless, but really, that's all it takes. I do admit that it irks me a bit to see someone who appears young and able-bodied zipping around "joyriding" (they've got stupid-big grins on their faces and their pedals aren't moving), but what can one do? I just remain a bit more alert and defensive when I'm in crowded places.
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Old 09-27-23, 11:14 AM
  #42  
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I'm afraid this is where humans are headed.

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Old 09-27-23, 11:45 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by TenGrainBread
​1. The existence of e-bikes and scooters does not mean that the traditional bicycle or bicycle trails and lanes are going to disappear. In fact the increase in trail/lane usage just means more infrastructure will be built and maintained.
A gigantic part of the bike safety problems currently facing the Netherlands is that the proliferation of electric motorcycles is rendering their cycling infrastructure obsolete.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...gerous-streets

The entire point of building a segregated infrastructure for bicycles disappears when motorized vehicles become commonplace on that same infrastructure. And building a new infrastructure for each type of vehicle that is developed is not feasible.

Originally Posted by TenGrainBread
3. In urban and suburban areas, less car rides means less combustion engine emissions means cleaner air and safer roads for cyclists. Good trade off for dealing with increase one or two-wheeled traffic.
Combustion engines are not the sole source of pollution. In the US today, an electric bike is about 69% powered by fossil fuels -- before accounting for the deleterious environmental effects of manufacturing and disposing-of all those cheap batteries. And a significant chunk of the other 31% of that power is nuclear generated, which presents an entire additional range of pollution.

People who are physically unable to power a bicycle relying on electric assistance is one thing, but the enormous majority of electric motorcyclists are simply lazy, and not much better than drivers, to the environment.
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Old 09-27-23, 11:52 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by gugie
I'm afraid this is where humans are headed.

we're already there!
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Old 09-27-23, 12:02 PM
  #45  
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Old 09-27-23, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by chain_whipped
Personally, I have zero fear of getting into an accident with an e-bike rider. Yes, bad things can result but nothing remotely bad as getting into a wreck with an SUV or behemoth grocery fetching tool in their Fook-150.
You should do some arithmetic. A 300 pound electric motorcycle ( with rider ) at 50 mph hits with 25% more energy than a 3-ton truck at 10mph.

More to the point, once you are dead, you are dead -- and electric motorcycles carry enough energy to kill you. A pickup truck can also kill you, but cannot make you more dead.
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Old 09-27-23, 02:02 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by TenGrainBread
I like Eben but this grouchiness doesn't even make sense.
I agree with your points and I agree that ebikes are fundamentally good for the culture. But I'd like to discuss Eben's grouchiness.

The thing I've noticed about Eben is that he's a writer. This may seem obvious, but it's important to think about in this context. Writers do a lot of things for society, and in the context of this article there are two important functions to highlight.

First, writers entertain us. That's the primary thing Eben is doing in most of what he writes. You don't get to be a successful writer by saying reasonable things in a reasonable way. You need to entertain. As such, the grouchiness is part of his schtick.

Second, writers help us process our thoughts and feelings. While some may think they're giving us unvarnished truth, what they're really giving us is perspective -- a way of looking at things that we otherwise may not have. Whether that perspective is wrong or right is almost immaterial. It's what we do with it that matters.

When Di2 first came out, Eben mocked it. In what I consider to be one of his best lines, he said Di2 would change everything you thought about bikes, assuming you previously thought of them as inexpensive and easy to maintain. He seems to have warmed up to electronic shifting. I expect he'll come around on ebikes too.

I take what he's saying as more along the lines of "have we really thought this through?" And the answer, of course, is that we haven't. There are going to be growing pains. We'll get through it though.
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Old 09-27-23, 02:07 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
.....great. All these new riders, who have left their cars at home, can ride their e-bikes at 30mph in the street, with the rest of the motorized traffic. I'm all for it.
Here in NYC, the number of bikes, ebikes, etc.that reflect people stopping use of their car is probably close to zero. Most of the usage is from people abandoning other transit modes, like subway, bus and taxi or from the various corporate app delivery services, which lately have become staffed by the new illegal alien serf class being developed in NYC.
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Old 09-27-23, 02:48 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer
...why does starting this thread define e-bikes as my top priority ? Why can't I have multiple issues of concern ? Why is this an either or issue ?

To be clear, you referenced a set of laws that have been widely adopted thanks to a manufacturer's lobbying push on a national level. They're based on "model legislation", drafted by the industry and their lobbying arm. They're sold on the concept that this lobbying group represents the common interests of cyclists. Which is questionable at this point. They do represent a certain demographic, and they certainly represent the people making and selling e-bikes.

My impression is that they were adopted without any real world experience in how the results would play out. They are now playing out. Enforcement is just not a part of the program. So we now have a set of laws that, even if they were followed by all users, would be problematic because of the speed differentials and experience levels already mentioned a couple of times. But that doesn't really matter, because a set of laws that are based on the honor system usually don't work out well in the real world. There's a historical exception in the case of Vigilance Committees. But stringing up a few people as an example is frowned upon in the 21st Century.
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Well, I wouldn't waste my time starting an A&S thread in the C&V forum if it weren't a priority to me. Or do you spend a lot of time doing things you hate?

As for the laws, please, do tell, if they are biased to the massive e-bike industry swaying senators with their tens and tens of lobbying dollars (kinda hard to sway people when the largest ebike manufacturer, VanMoof, files for bankruptcy), what should the laws be? And if they are not enforced as you stated, what would changing them do? I mean, other than bupkis.

If your bright idea is to ban ebikes, sorry that the kids are on your lawn, you aren't putting that genie back in the bottle.

Or will wringing your hands on an anonymous forum suffice?
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Old 09-27-23, 02:57 PM
  #50  
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California is about to pass a law that prohibits cities from making sidewalks off limits to ebikes. These are the end-times.
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