C&V road bike for long femurs/short torso?
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C&V road bike for long femurs/short torso?
I've just learned something that may explain a lot of the fit issues I've fought with, which is that I have relatively long femurs. I find it hard to get the saddle back far enough to maintain proper balance when I take my hands off the bars. This is made even worse by modern frames in my size (which tend to have a 74º or steeper seat tube angle) and a preference for leather saddles (which are already hard to set far back on their own).
So now I'm wondering what I should keep an eye out for, that would help. I'm thinking like 72º seat tube angle (or shallower), or maybe 73º with a 27.2mm seatpost diameter (so that I can use an extra long setback seatpost).
Current bikes range from 73º with 26.4mm seatpost (so the most setback I can get is ~20mm with a regular LaPrade style) to 74º and 74.5º with 27.2mm VO seatposts with 30.2mm of setback (which basically works out to the same effective seat tube angle as the 73º bike with a standard seatpost).
I run into that falling-forward problem on all of the aforementioned bikes, even with my saddles set as far back as they can go. Is there anything out there for me?
So now I'm wondering what I should keep an eye out for, that would help. I'm thinking like 72º seat tube angle (or shallower), or maybe 73º with a 27.2mm seatpost diameter (so that I can use an extra long setback seatpost).
Current bikes range from 73º with 26.4mm seatpost (so the most setback I can get is ~20mm with a regular LaPrade style) to 74º and 74.5º with 27.2mm VO seatposts with 30.2mm of setback (which basically works out to the same effective seat tube angle as the 73º bike with a standard seatpost).
I run into that falling-forward problem on all of the aforementioned bikes, even with my saddles set as far back as they can go. Is there anything out there for me?
#2
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This is a big part of what we mean when we talk about a frame providing a good fit for a particular rider, but I would think you could get some relief by choosing a handlebar stem with an appropriate forward reach and then adjusting its height appropriately. Among 1970 vintage bicycles I have owned, the Nishiki (73 degrees parallel) had a proportionately very short top tube and the Peugeot UO-8 (72 degrees parallel) had a very long one.
Is your saddle nosed too far downward, which in turn creates load on the hands and a falling-forward feeling? Does bringing up the nose just a bit provide some relief?
Is your saddle nosed too far downward, which in turn creates load on the hands and a falling-forward feeling? Does bringing up the nose just a bit provide some relief?
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Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
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Italian bikes and French rando bikes pretty much always have short top tubes. You can also also think about shortening your your stem reach by a cm or 2.
I'm 6'3" and all limbs (short torso). My old bike boom 25-1/2" Raleigh fits me like a glove with the correct cockpit setup, and is my benchmark for starting measurements whenever I build another bike.
On that particular bike, I also like Thomson zero-offset seatpost, which conveniently comes in 25.4mm.
If you want the maximum seatpost offset available (37mm), only in 27.2mm seatpost diameter, it's the Nitto S84 lugged Cr-Mo post, which you can find for the best price in Japan - it was designed from the start to move Brooks saddles farther back
I'm 6'3" and all limbs (short torso). My old bike boom 25-1/2" Raleigh fits me like a glove with the correct cockpit setup, and is my benchmark for starting measurements whenever I build another bike.
On that particular bike, I also like Thomson zero-offset seatpost, which conveniently comes in 25.4mm.
If you want the maximum seatpost offset available (37mm), only in 27.2mm seatpost diameter, it's the Nitto S84 lugged Cr-Mo post, which you can find for the best price in Japan - it was designed from the start to move Brooks saddles farther back
#4
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This is a big part of what we mean when we talk about a frame providing a good fit for a particular rider, but I would think you could get some relief by choosing a handlebar stem with an appropriate forward reach and then adjusting its height appropriately. Among 1970 vintage bicycles I have owned, the Nishiki (73 degrees parallel) had a proportionately very short top tube and the Peugeot UO-8 (72 degrees parallel) had a very long one.
Is your saddle nosed too far downward, which in turn creates load on the hands and a falling-forward feeling? Does bringing up the nose just a bit provide some relief?
Is your saddle nosed too far downward, which in turn creates load on the hands and a falling-forward feeling? Does bringing up the nose just a bit provide some relief?
I do have my saddles adjusted with the noses tilted upward, here are my most easily accessible-to-photograph road bikes with leather saddles:
It's a fine line between having the nose up enough to keep me from sliding forward, and being uncomfortable.
Italian bikes and French rando bikes pretty much always have short top tubes. You can also also think about shortening your your stem reach by a cm or 2.
I'm 6'3" and all limbs (short torso). My old bike boom 25-1/2" Raleigh fits me like a glove with the correct cockpit setup, and is my benchmark for starting measurements whenever I build another bike.
On that particular bike, I also like Thomson zero-offset seatpost, which conveniently comes in 25.4mm.
If you want the maximum seatpost offset available (37mm), only in 27.2mm seatpost diameter, it's the Nitto S84 lugged Cr-Mo post, which you can find for the best price in Japan - it was designed from the start to move Brooks saddles farther back
I'm 6'3" and all limbs (short torso). My old bike boom 25-1/2" Raleigh fits me like a glove with the correct cockpit setup, and is my benchmark for starting measurements whenever I build another bike.
On that particular bike, I also like Thomson zero-offset seatpost, which conveniently comes in 25.4mm.
If you want the maximum seatpost offset available (37mm), only in 27.2mm seatpost diameter, it's the Nitto S84 lugged Cr-Mo post, which you can find for the best price in Japan - it was designed from the start to move Brooks saddles farther back
#5
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If too little setback is the issue:
#6
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#7
incazzare.
Man, I have the opposite problem: Short legs and long arms! I find for me something like a 54 seat tube x 57 top tube works best. Tough to find.
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#8
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That seatpost is early mountain bike tech. It allows you to slam your seat all the way back for an off road descent. Moving you center of gravity back in this situation is helpful. Most people found it easier just to slide back or even behind your seat, so these things died out.
RE: the OP
I guess my build also leans somewhat in the long femur shorter torso direction. I never really had the problem you are having, and I'm not sure I even understand it. Are you having trouble riding no hands, or one handed? Sounds kind of like you are having trouble compensating for extra weight on one side of the bars when you go for a water bottle or something??
If that's the case, yeah, you may be happier with a more relaxed road geometry. Something like 73º parallel with neutral trail is going to be easy to ride no hands. No problem for me to ride my old Masi (73.5 parallel) endlessly no hands, and it always feels very neutral and natural.
Also, double check the headset adjustment. A hs that is too tight will negatively affect handling and no hands riding.
These days I do in fact ride 72 parallel. It does work well with leather saddles since it's kind of what they were designed for. Both my old PX10 and new Mercian have what might be called traditional touring geometry. The PX is actually a bit divey because of the moderately high trail, though at high speeds it is on rails.
RE: the OP
I guess my build also leans somewhat in the long femur shorter torso direction. I never really had the problem you are having, and I'm not sure I even understand it. Are you having trouble riding no hands, or one handed? Sounds kind of like you are having trouble compensating for extra weight on one side of the bars when you go for a water bottle or something??
If that's the case, yeah, you may be happier with a more relaxed road geometry. Something like 73º parallel with neutral trail is going to be easy to ride no hands. No problem for me to ride my old Masi (73.5 parallel) endlessly no hands, and it always feels very neutral and natural.
Also, double check the headset adjustment. A hs that is too tight will negatively affect handling and no hands riding.
These days I do in fact ride 72 parallel. It does work well with leather saddles since it's kind of what they were designed for. Both my old PX10 and new Mercian have what might be called traditional touring geometry. The PX is actually a bit divey because of the moderately high trail, though at high speeds it is on rails.
#10
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I'm 6' tall with a 36" leg length, so half of my overall height is in my legs. Bikes that fit me best generally have 60 - 61cm seat tubes with 56cm top tubes. Such short top tubes are rare in stock frames, but they're out there.
In 1989, for example, Schwinn offered a short top tube option for smaller frame size Paramounts to fit long legged riders.
In 1989, for example, Schwinn offered a short top tube option for smaller frame size Paramounts to fit long legged riders.
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#11
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That seatpost is early mountain bike tech. It allows you to slam your seat all the way back for an off road descent. Moving you center of gravity back in this situation is helpful. Most people found it easier just to slide back or even behind your seat, so these things died out.
RE: the OP
I guess my build also leans somewhat in the long femur shorter torso direction. I never really had the problem you are having, and I'm not sure I even understand it. Are you having trouble riding no hands, or one handed? Sounds kind of like you are having trouble compensating for extra weight on one side of the bars when you go for a water bottle or something??
If that's the case, yeah, you may be happier with a more relaxed road geometry. Something like 73º parallel with neutral trail is going to be easy to ride no hands. No problem for me to ride my old Masi (73.5 parallel) endlessly no hands, and it always feels very neutral and natural.
Also, double check the headset adjustment. A hs that is too tight will negatively affect handling and no hands riding.
These days I do in fact ride 72 parallel. It does work well with leather saddles since it's kind of what they were designed for. Both my old PX10 and new Mercian have what might be called traditional touring geometry. The PX is actually a bit divey because of the moderately high trail, though at high speeds it is on rails.
RE: the OP
I guess my build also leans somewhat in the long femur shorter torso direction. I never really had the problem you are having, and I'm not sure I even understand it. Are you having trouble riding no hands, or one handed? Sounds kind of like you are having trouble compensating for extra weight on one side of the bars when you go for a water bottle or something??
If that's the case, yeah, you may be happier with a more relaxed road geometry. Something like 73º parallel with neutral trail is going to be easy to ride no hands. No problem for me to ride my old Masi (73.5 parallel) endlessly no hands, and it always feels very neutral and natural.
Also, double check the headset adjustment. A hs that is too tight will negatively affect handling and no hands riding.
These days I do in fact ride 72 parallel. It does work well with leather saddles since it's kind of what they were designed for. Both my old PX10 and new Mercian have what might be called traditional touring geometry. The PX is actually a bit divey because of the moderately high trail, though at high speeds it is on rails.
ST can be up to 58cm depending on BB height. I can't easily give you a definitive answer on the TT length, because I've yet to find the bike with the right ST angle, and of course the TT length is affected by this. Likely not more than about 55cm, but that's what my 73deg bike has, and I'm still trying to get the saddle back more.
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SR MTE-100 seatpost. Found it on my Union Randonneur, which I bought because my curiosity got the better of me. And it was cheap. And I liked the parts.
As bought, and apparently pretty much stock:
As bought, and apparently pretty much stock:
#14
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I'm 6' tall with a 36" leg length, so half of my overall height is in my legs. Bikes that fit me best generally have 60 - 61cm seat tubes with 56cm top tubes. Such short top tubes are rare in stock frames, but they're out there.
In 1989, for example, Schwinn offered a short top tube option for smaller frame size Paramounts to fit long legged riders.
In 1989, for example, Schwinn offered a short top tube option for smaller frame size Paramounts to fit long legged riders.
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I am in the same situation. 6'1" with a 36" inseam. My most comfortable bike is my '81 Bianchi Limited. ST = 61ctc and TT = 58ctc. I also have a short stem (100) and short reach handlebars.
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You might want to checkout Miyata's think 58/55 60/56 63/57
look toward the bottom of this
Miyata Bicycle Catalogs: Miyata Catalog 1989
look toward the bottom of this
Miyata Bicycle Catalogs: Miyata Catalog 1989
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I don't know about specific models, but relying on seat tube and top tube length might not be the best way to go. I've learned that frame stack and reach are better indicators of what fits me. Try measuring whatever you have that seems to fit the best and compare that to others:
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#19
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I'm built like Scooper, Essthreetee and nlerner - 6'0" with a 36" (91 cm) inseam. I was 6' 1.5" years ago, but my torso has shrunk over the last decade or so (I'm 67). Thankfully I can still ride the same bikes, but have shortened the cockpits. Both the Miyata 912 and Marinoni Sport Touring are 62cm ctc with 58cm TT's, albeit with relatively steep geometry (around 74deg parallel). I use short reach bars (love the Soma Highway One) and 80-100mm stems, with bars about 2cm below the saddle. They're comfortable for any distance, and I'm happy with the steering - both have about 45mm of trail using 28-32mm tires.
But I can relate to the OP's problem, since I also need leather saddles and have to deal with their short rails, and might like the saddles farther back to keep my hands from getting "buzzy". I plan to try a Rivet Independence at some point on the Miyata, which can't take a 27.2 seatpost. Can anyone comment on whether that saddle slides farther back, compared to a Berthoud or Brooks?
But I can relate to the OP's problem, since I also need leather saddles and have to deal with their short rails, and might like the saddles farther back to keep my hands from getting "buzzy". I plan to try a Rivet Independence at some point on the Miyata, which can't take a 27.2 seatpost. Can anyone comment on whether that saddle slides farther back, compared to a Berthoud or Brooks?
Last edited by Dfrost; 07-27-16 at 10:39 PM.
#20
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I'm built like Scooper, Essthreetee and nlerner - 6'0" with a 36" (91 cm) inseam. I was 6' 1.5" years ago, but my torso has shrunk over the last decade or so (I'm 67). Thankfully I can still ride the same bikes, but have shortened the cockpits. Both the Miyata 912 and Marinoni Sport Touring are 62cm ctc with 58cm TT's, albeit with relatively steep geometry (around 74deg parallel). I use short reach bars (love the Soma Highway One) and 80-100mm stems, with bars about 2cm below the saddle. They're comfortable for any distance, and I'm happy with the steering - both have about 45mm of trail using 28-32mm tires.
But I can relate to the OP's problem, since I also need leather saddles and have to deal with their short rails, and might like the saddles farther back to keep my hands from getting "buzzy". I plan to try a Rivet Independence at some point on the Miyata, which can't take a 27.2 seatpost. Can anyone comment on whether that saddle slides farther back, compared to a Berthoud or Brooks?
But I can relate to the OP's problem, since I also need leather saddles and have to deal with their short rails, and might like the saddles farther back to keep my hands from getting "buzzy". I plan to try a Rivet Independence at some point on the Miyata, which can't take a 27.2 seatpost. Can anyone comment on whether that saddle slides farther back, compared to a Berthoud or Brooks?
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I think it's Steve Hogg who recommends the test of riding in your primary position, and taking your hands off the bars without changing position; the goal being that you should be able to maintain it without falling forward. That's what I was referring to when I mentioned taking my hands off.
BTW: my frames are in the 58cm ST range and 73 deg parallel range with the reach set the same on all of them. 30 mile rides are a regular event and I hardly plan for metric centuries anymore. They all use old Vetta TriShock saddles set about mid range with the nose tilted slightly down so my sit bones are nicely up on the rear of the saddle - back 'on the rivets' where I trained them to sit.
#22
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I don't know about specific models, but relying on seat tube and top tube length might not be the best way to go. I've learned that frame stack and reach are better indicators of what fits me. Try measuring whatever you have that seems to fit the best and compare that to others:
#23
incazzare.
That makes sense, since I inherited these dimensions from my father.
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#24
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To the OP, I have a similar build. My preferred reach is around 380-390mm and stack 600mm+. Take the time to take good measurements and use an online fit calculator to give you some numbers to go on. Plenty of people will tell you, "well, I can ride all sorts of different size frames" and "the human body is adaptable". That's fine, but I've moved on and have realized there is something better than "good enough". My stack/reach preference strikes some people as way out of whack, but if you meet me I don't think you would say that my frame is disproportional.
That doesn't really matter. You should be apply your own preferred stem and handlebar measurements to a given frame reach number and determine your own fit. I've never seen handlebar reach listed without frame reach. I don't pay any attention to the former if it is listed.
I agree with what nlerner posted. I started keeping a spreadsheet with the geometry measurements of bikes I own, have owned or am interested in owning. Comparing these numbers and then thinking about how those bikes that I've ridden felt has been illuminating. ST and TT measurements can get you pretty close when talking about classic 70s and 80s road bikes, but more figures are extremely helpful.
Some things to consider.
More or less, your saddle height and setback should be a static number. This may change if you ride bikes with different crank lengths and various pedals, but I like to keep those pretty damn close on any bicycle.
Saddle position is tied to one thing, the bottom bracket. That is why frame reach is such a valuable measurement. It too is tied to the BB. For me, frame reach and stack are first numbers I want when looking at a frame.
Frame stack is also tied to the BB and will tell me if I am able to get my desired bar position in relation to my saddle with a stem/spacer/bar combo that is acceptable to me.
Formulas are easily found on the internet. You can use a tape measure to pretty accurately measure bicycle tubes. What's a bit more difficult are the ST and HT angles and TT slope. I've found taking the average of several measurements using a $30 digital angle finder to be plenty accurate.
Agreed. I have an Independence and it will slide further back than a Brooks Pro, but not by much.
I agree with what nlerner posted. I started keeping a spreadsheet with the geometry measurements of bikes I own, have owned or am interested in owning. Comparing these numbers and then thinking about how those bikes that I've ridden felt has been illuminating. ST and TT measurements can get you pretty close when talking about classic 70s and 80s road bikes, but more figures are extremely helpful.
Some things to consider.
More or less, your saddle height and setback should be a static number. This may change if you ride bikes with different crank lengths and various pedals, but I like to keep those pretty damn close on any bicycle.
Saddle position is tied to one thing, the bottom bracket. That is why frame reach is such a valuable measurement. It too is tied to the BB. For me, frame reach and stack are first numbers I want when looking at a frame.
Frame stack is also tied to the BB and will tell me if I am able to get my desired bar position in relation to my saddle with a stem/spacer/bar combo that is acceptable to me.
Formulas are easily found on the internet. You can use a tape measure to pretty accurately measure bicycle tubes. What's a bit more difficult are the ST and HT angles and TT slope. I've found taking the average of several measurements using a $30 digital angle finder to be plenty accurate.
I tried the Independence Allroad for a few minutes, but the shape really didn't work for me. The dimensions are very similar to the Berthoud Aspin (which I love and now have two of), but it felt like it had an arch shape that was trying to split me in two, and I just couldn't get comfortable on it. I bought a second Aspin as a result. The difference in available setback is only slight...maybe 5mm, which wasn't enough to notice any real difference, but I also, as mentioned, just couldn't get comfortable on the Rivet regardless.
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Last edited by ColonelJLloyd; 07-28-16 at 10:14 AM.
#25
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Scooper, give my contact information to the future executor of your estate, please. If any of your bikes leave the family they should go to someone whom they fit extremely well.
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