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Does this Woodrup look bent?

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Does this Woodrup look bent?

Old 07-11-22, 06:13 AM
  #26  
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I like to see the potential in everything (not just bikes) but if someone wheeled that in front of me and said it was free I would be inclined to walk away. A lot of force was transmitted into that machine and much of that force may have telegraphed into other bits on the bike. I hope the salvage operation goes well and for the sake of your well being, proceed cautiously Kurt.
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Old 07-11-22, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by verktyg View Post
Both of those chain stays are beyond the point of no return for straightening or "Cold Setting"...
I'll agree with you on the right stay, but we haven't seen enough of the left to know whether we're looking at a tube that has been compromised to the point of a kink, or whether it looks worse than it is based on the divot for tire clearance. Until it's all stripped down, I'll reserve judgement.

Either way though, I'd make a point here and say that it's not necessarily a bad thing to cold-set this mess back into alignment if the chainstays are to be replaced. Better to work with a frame in some sort of

Originally Posted by Fredo76 View Post
I think that wheel rim spent some time trapped under the wheel of a car or truck as it slid to a stop. The right bumper of something hit the right chainstay, and the wheel rim ended up under the vehicle tire, is my guess. Ouch is right.
Interesting. Because of the non-drive-side scrapes, I've been envisioning the bike with the drive side facing the automobile, not the other way around. But if it was drive-side out, perhaps the rack was hit on the left rear, fell off, and the rightmost rack strap remained attached, dragging the remains 180 degrees around to rub on the curb. It's a possibility.

Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
Bring it into your lbs like that and tell 'em you need a new chain.
No, I think there's something wrong with the derailer.

Originally Posted by mech986 View Post
Wonder if it was hit by a motorcycle as there seems to be one upward vector of impact against the right chain stay? The other possibility is rider error on a long or steep descent with a fall to the right and the rear wheel literally stopped (braking or stay impact) and dragging on the ground or a curb before hitting something hard (tree, pole, etc.) or vice-versa. I wouldn’t assume the current position of the rear wheel is where it got scraped / ground down. One support of this theory is the bars and grips didn’t get damaged because the rider took the brunt of the fall and never allowed the left or right side of the frame to hit the ground. Did either of the pedals sustain any damage. If so, I’d wonder if the crank arms are twisted, bent, or cracked?

I’d check the frame for any signs of blood. I suspect the rider may have looked superficially worse than the frame. Check inside the bars for any ID.
No signs of there having been a rider on it when it was hit; even if there was, no toe clips or straps suggests that the bike would have separated from the rider from friction alone if that were the case.

Frame is dusty from sitting, but otherwise looks as if it was hung up indoors before being wrecked. No evidence of anything that would warrant some CSI: Miami forensics.

The saddle, dropout, and a part of the Campy pedal on the left side got scraped (it's also missing the LH dustcap while the RH is present); I'm assuming it triangulated over these bits. Whatever the case, there was some weight on the rear wheel for it to be scraped as bad as it has.

-Kurt
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Old 07-11-22, 06:22 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by RustyJames View Post
I like to see the potential in everything (not just bikes) but if someone wheeled that in front of me and said it was free I would be inclined to walk away. A lot of force was transmitted into that machine and much of that force may have telegraphed into other bits on the bike. I hope the salvage operation goes well and for the sake of your well being, proceed cautiously Kurt.
When you walk away from these, make sure the Campy and Superbe works it's way to me, eh?

I'm not too particularly worried about the salvageable bits on it, except the possibility of the front rim being toast from the missing spoke, and the obligatory handlebar and stem inspection. I'm less worried about bent bars than corrosion pitting though. The latter seems to be a much more prevalent hidden horror as of recent.

-Kurt
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Old 07-11-22, 06:39 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa View Post
Bring it into your lbs like that and tell 'em you need a new chain.
But... DON'T let the LBS talk you into replacing the freewheel. Lot's of like left in that Regina (I'm asuming)!

Dang, Kurt, you really take on the unusual projects.
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Old 07-11-22, 07:21 AM
  #30  
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Alien abduction?
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Old 07-11-22, 08:19 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
But... DON'T let the LBS talk you into replacing the freewheel. Lot's of like left in that Regina (I'm asuming)!

Dang, Kurt, you really take on the unusual projects.
I seem to have acquired a lot more five speeds between Friday and Sunday with the lot that this one came with. Rather curious to see what it'll take to wrangle the wheel out of the frame.

Originally Posted by gearbasher View Post
Alien abduction?
Nah. It would have come back looking like this pile of steaming crap.



Speaking of which, this proves an industrial designer can engineer a product while remaining entirely ignorant to the best practices already known about said product.

-Kurt
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Old 07-11-22, 11:07 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
I seem to have acquired a lot more five speeds between Friday and Sunday with the lot that this one came with. Rather curious to see what it'll take to wrangle the wheel out of the frame.

-Kurt
If you’re trying to take out the wheel relatively intact, that will be a real trick or endeavor. If just trying to remove it in pieces, probably cut the spokes, split the tire and rim into two or three pieces, and then open the stays to remove the hub. Did the rear brakes or brake bolt get bent? Wonder if the chain is salvageable?

I suspect trying to get the right chain and seat stay to approximate their original lengths will be the tough part. The left side looks like a more straightforward (no pun intended) dropout alignment once the BB lug area is assessed.

Good practice frame for severe repairs. Think if it was Aluminum, titanium or worse, carbon.
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Old 07-12-22, 10:16 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by mech986 View Post
If you’re trying to take out the wheel relatively intact, that will be a real trick or endeavor. If just trying to remove it in pieces, probably cut the spokes, split the tire and rim into two or three pieces, and then open the stays to remove the hub. Did the rear brakes or brake bolt get bent? Wonder if the chain is salvageable?

I suspect trying to get the right chain and seat stay to approximate their original lengths will be the tough part. The left side looks like a more straightforward (no pun intended) dropout alignment once the BB lug area is assessed.

Good practice frame for severe repairs. Think if it was Aluminum, titanium or worse, carbon.
It slipped right out. Pushed the wheel forward of the drops, removed the derailer from the dropout for ease, unwrapped the chain, and the wheel tried to fall to the floor. Chain looks fine.





Part of the axle is missing on the rear Phil hub, and the inner shaft started to pull out as I undid the drive side bolt.





Speaking of which, this has to be in a vise for any straightening. It's most definitely not budging at all - even with the Park straightening tool - if in the conventional stand (not that one would want to, lest they damage the seattube). Still, but this compound bend is a lot stronger than one might think from looking at it:



Some more looks at the impressive carnage on the tire and rim:







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Old 07-12-22, 10:16 AM
  #34  
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Obvious gravel/concrete dust:



Pedal closeup:




By the way, despite the phenomenal maintenance of the rest of this machine, the stem is completely stuck. Of course it would be. Can't have an easy time of it, can we?

-Kurt
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Old 07-12-22, 11:24 AM
  #35  
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Old 07-14-22, 09:23 AM
  #36  
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Too bad about that rear hub. I LOVE the design of all the Phil stuff!
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Old 07-14-22, 09:36 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by RobertUI View Post
Too bad about that rear hub. I LOVE the design of all the Phil stuff!
Oh, it's not dead yet. Just needs an axle swap.

I've got a hydraulic press

-Kurt
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Old 07-14-22, 11:33 AM
  #38  
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I'd find a frame builder to check it out. May be fixable. I'd say replace both stays, and maybe the non-drive side drop out since you are in the neighborhood anyway. I'd be tempted to paint the chain stays black. Much easier than trying to match. And IMO, black stays would look OK.
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Old 07-14-22, 01:58 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Drillium Dude View Post
Hit from behind, then dragged, is my guess. Really did a number on that rim.

Betcha gugie could make that frame right again (and 650Bs will fit afterwards, too)!

DD
Sure, I can fix that!

For the price of a brand new frame.
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Old 07-15-22, 03:24 PM
  #40  
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And now for another episode of Be Fruitless and Fustrify:





The Park chainstay straightening tool could only do so much. But I was impressed at what it did do.



And here's the results after I lost interest - or rather, realized the limitations - of what I can do. The seatstay still makes the rear triangle ludicrously strong (what was that nonsense in the recent Pinarello thread about cold setting rear triangles being bad?), and the left isn't isn't far off from being where it should be.



I was surprised to see it develop a kink here. I think the left stay was pulled backwards so hard that it weakened the 531 on the outside edge. Inner dimple is fine.



Dropout is cracky cracky. Nothing unexpected.





I'm probably going to throw it on Mike Terraferma's frame table anyway. Just for giggles.

-Kurt
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Old 07-16-22, 04:24 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
And now for another episode of Be Fruitless and Fustrify:





The Park chainstay straightening tool could only do so much. But I was impressed at what it did do.



And here's the results after I lost interest - or rather, realized the limitations - of what I can do. The seatstay still makes the rear triangle ludicrously strong (what was that nonsense in the recent Pinarello thread about cold setting rear triangles being bad?), and the left isn't isn't far off from being where it should be.



I was surprised to see it develop a kink here. I think the left stay was pulled backwards so hard that it weakened the 531 on the outside edge. Inner dimple is fine.



Dropout is cracky cracky. Nothing unexpected.





I'm probably going to throw it on Mike Terraferma's frame table anyway. Just for giggles.

-Kurt
Kind of amazing how well it held it's shape. Quality bike tubing is pretty damn impressive.
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Old 07-22-22, 10:45 AM
  #42  
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Well, if I play my cards right, this thing just might get put back together. It'll probably be another three weeks before anything starts - but in the meantime, if anyone has an orphaned, left-side 1010A - eyeletted - that they want to sell, I'm open to it.

Originally Posted by 52telecaster View Post
Kind of amazing how well it held it's shape. Quality bike tubing is pretty damn impressive.
You said it. These 531 stays do not bend with the ease of hi-ten.

-Kurt
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Old 08-01-22, 06:31 PM
  #43  
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Not much of an update, but at least it's ready(ish) for the frame table and jig as soon as I cut the stem out and pull the fork. Fixed cup wouldn't budge, not even with the beautiful Var tool. I wound up resorting to my old, homebuilt bodge job of a tool - which has yet to fail. I've also never cut it down and simplified it as I should, but that's another story.





This is, however, the first time I've ever had to wail on it with a sledgehammer:



Everything came apart with no damage (hahaha!); now to take care of the stem. Really don't want to sacrifice yet another Cinelli stem to the gods of stuck stems but...well, at least there will be more spare binder bolts.

-Kurt
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Old 08-04-22, 06:01 PM
  #44  
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Kurt,
When are you gonna soak the stem in atf/acetone to get it loose? It has worked wonderfully for a lot of al-fe bonding for me. Smiles, MH
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Old 08-04-22, 09:12 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Mad Honk View Post
Kurt,
When are you gonna soak the stem in atf/acetone to get it loose? It has worked wonderfully for a lot of al-fe bonding for me. Smiles, MH
Funny that you should ask, as I dunked the fork a few days ago. I'm experimenting with something else though - mostly to satisfy my own curiosity: Oxalic acid. I've always wanted to see what it does in this scenario. If it removes rust and it eats aluminum, in theory it should have an effect on a stuck stem, but I've yet to read about anyone trying it (probably because it doesn't work, but I want first-hand experience!)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the idea of the ATF/acetone trick is that the acetone helps draw the slippery ATF into the gap between the stem and the steerer, correct? I'm not convinced it'd work in all scenarios, but if this doesn't work, I'll give it a try.

Here are the pictures. I cut the stem nice and long so I can grab it in the vice later.



Cinelli stems get wider the closer you get to the top of the quill, so I tapered it with the handheld belt sander. Could have used a grinding disc, but the belt sander was easier to grab at that moment.



Also rather lucky (if I want to apply pressure from the bottom) that the stem wedge fell right out of the steerer. No nails or rough spots around the crown in this fork.



And here it has sat for the last few days. Not sure if I should up the oxalic content.



-Kurt
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Old 08-05-22, 08:22 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
I'm experimenting with something else though - mostly to satisfy my own curiosity: Oxalic acid. I've always wanted to see what it does in this scenario. If it removes rust and it eats aluminum, in theory it should have an effect on a stuck stem, but I've yet to read about anyone trying it (probably because it doesn't work, but I want first-hand experience!)
I've never used oxalic acid to free up stuck posts or stems.

In my experience, OA hasn't 'eaten' aluminum, it etched it very slightly and left a dull or hazy finish.

Different temperature, duration, and concentration of the OA bath may yield different results.

I'm interested to see if this works. Please keep us updated!
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Old 08-06-22, 01:24 PM
  #47  
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The fork has been dunked for a few days now to no effect. Going to neutralize the OA bath and swap over to a smaller container of ATF + acetone to see what happens. I still have my doubts; I dare say the aluminum needs to be dissolved for this to work.

Meanwhile, developments with the frame:



Seat tube was twisted to the right by a good ~15mm, worse than what the photo suggests.



Headtube was also off plane. Some unceremonious cold-setting fixed it:



Chopping off the stays from the BB. The Woodrup is brass brazed, not silver brazed, so the tubes have to be ground out with a die grinder; heating them up could potentially get the BB too toasty - and result in it cracking when the tube is pulled:



Lots of tension in this sucker:



Paint removed from the left stay in preparation for it's removal. It had a surprisingly small amount of brass holding it in.



Left dropout out, and the tip of the right chainstay is off too.



Next order of business is to die grind the chainstays out of the BB, then reconstruct the left side of the rear triangle.

Also: I have this NOS set of Campagnolo 1010A's that I'm willing to trade for an identical set with eyelets.



-Kurt
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Old 08-09-22, 06:44 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
The fork has been dunked for a few days now to no effect. Going to neutralize the OA bath and swap over to a smaller container of ATF + acetone to see what happens. I still have my doubts; I dare say the aluminum needs to be dissolved for this to work.
If galvanic corrosion is what is bonding the stem to the fork, ammonia can break that loose. It's worked for me several times.

As has thermal cycling- in your case, dunking the fork upside down in a pot of boiling water until everything heats up, followed by a bath in ice water might make the metals expand and contract at varying rates and break it loose.

One time I had a stuck seat post where those efforts did nothing and I needed to use lye to dissolve the aluminum enough to get it out. Worked great! The lye even happily dissolved the hair, skin, and fat on my forearm.
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Old 08-10-22, 07:36 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by RandolphCarter View Post
If galvanic corrosion is what is bonding the stem to the fork, ammonia can break that loose. It's worked for me several times.

As has thermal cycling- in your case, dunking the fork upside down in a pot of boiling water until everything heats up, followed by a bath in ice water might make the metals expand and contract at varying rates and break it loose.

One time I had a stuck seat post where those efforts did nothing and I needed to use lye to dissolve the aluminum enough to get it out. Worked great! The lye even happily dissolved the hair, skin, and fat on my forearm.
I've tried ammonia in the past without real success, but I can try it again as part of the various attempts to find a lye substitute (yes, fully aware of it and I don't want anything to do with the stuff).

In my experience, the severity of how stuck a given seatpost or stem is varies between the particular case one has on hand; the worst of these essentially boils down to the corrosion basically creating a ~0.2mm thick wedge around the stem's circumference. Imagine if the entire stem were its own expander wedge.

I dare say the effectiveness of ammonia or acetone/ATF boils down to whether either solution is thin enough to permeate between this oxidation layer and create enough lubricity to allow them to be pulled apart, rather than eating away at any significant amount of aluminum itself.

-Kurt
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Last edited by cudak888; 08-10-22 at 09:37 PM.
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Old 08-10-22, 04:40 PM
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Round two - only I still haven't found time to pick up some acetone.

I figured I'd give it a shot with mineral spirits instead. Can't hurt; I probably won't get around to picking up the necessary acetone for another week anyway.



That reminds me, I really ought to clean this dump of a workshop - once I'm done fixing every other mess that's been helpfully piled up for me.

Submerged in Type F goodness:



-Kurt
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