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Hit by car, insurance tries to pay depreciated value for the bike

Old 05-22-16, 01:12 PM
  #76  
CliffordK
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake
I think this is naive to the point of silliness and I think you know that. The guy paying the attorney his money is the real client. If the insured is the real client all claims would be settled quickly at the maximum of the policy.
It is probably a mix. The insured may want to do "what is right". But, their insurance rates may also change based on the overall payout. So, they may not wish an excessive payout.

But you're right, at the end of the day, the attorney answers to whoever is paying his paycheck.
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Old 05-22-16, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY

BTW- If you go to court, don't sue the insurer, they're a 3rd party to the case, and you have no obligation to speak to them. Sue the driver and/or owner of the car and let them insist that the insurer cover them and get them off the hook.

Your claim is against the driver and/or owner of the car, and where it goes from there depends on the specifics of the contract between the driver and his insurer. Generally the insurer is obligated to act s attorney for the driver, so you ultimately end up dealing with the insurer in that capacity.
I have no idea how the Canadian court system works (hopefully, I never will).

I can tell you, anecdotally, how small claims works in my small part of the universe. I was involved in a motor vehicle accident (while driving). The other driver sued me in small claims. The sheriff came to my house to deliver the summons and complaint. I submitted it to my auto carrier. Because of the small size of the damages, they wouldn't send an attorney and I ended up defending myself. The other driver was the auto mechanic for the police department in the jurisdiction where the accident occurred - my defense didn't go well (although my carrier stood by my version and didn't charge me with the accident).

The point of my story is this - if you file in small claims, the driver will be served the summons and complaint. It's annoying as hell and it will likely be annoying in this case. It may help to apply pressure to the adjuster to "see the light" on the value of your bike.

Last edited by Altair 4; 05-22-16 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 05-22-16, 01:24 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake
I think this is naive to the point of silliness and I think you know that. The guy paying the attorney his money is the real client. If the insured is the real client all claims would be settled quickly at the maximum of the policy.
You have a low opinion of attorneys, which may be justified in a general sense, but doesn't work across the board. Insurers hire outside attorneys to defend major claims, and once it's obvious that the claim is going to Max out, the attorney has no real obligation to the insurer and is free to do whatever he can for the client. I know of a few who do this sort of work, and they work pretty hard mounting the best defense strategy to minimize their client's exposure.

BTW - taking your view, consider the question from the plaintiff's side. His attorney is on contingency, and gets a paid on a percentage basis only if and when paid. He knows the insurer is good for whatever is agreed or awarded up to a cap, and anything more is iffy based on it's collectibility from the driver's assets. So both of his and his client's best interest lies in the balance of $XX.00 sooner, vs maybe more later. Then factor the risk that going for more costs in effort and delay and can sometimes result in an award smaller that was on the table.

The plain fact is that there's a gap between dollars awarded and dollars collected, and all the players know that as they do the dance.
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Old 05-22-16, 02:40 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
You have a low opinion of attorneys, which may be justified in a general sense, but doesn't work across the board. Insurers hire outside attorneys to defend major claims, and once it's obvious that the claim is going to Max out, the attorney has no real obligation to the insurer and is free to do whatever he can for the client. I know of a few who do this sort of work, and they work pretty hard mounting the best defense strategy to minimize their client's exposure.

BTW - taking your view, consider the question from the plaintiff's side. His attorney is on contingency, and gets a paid on a percentage basis only if and when paid. He knows the insurer is good for whatever is agreed or awarded up to a cap, and anything more is iffy based on it's collectibility from the driver's assets. So both of his and his client's best interest lies in the balance of $XX.00 sooner, vs maybe more later. Then factor the risk that going for more costs in effort and delay and can sometimes result in an award smaller that was on the table.

The plain fact is that there's a gap between dollars awarded and dollars collected, and all the players know that as they do the dance.
I don't disagree with your conclusion.

Basically most of the working people I know, including most of my relatives, are attorneys. I spent 7 years as the only non-attorney in my department. I eventually had to choose between accounting and law...and accounting classes were cheaper.

I don't have a low opinion of attorneys, I have a realistic view of what you accurately refer to as the dance. I've also been through this process (and it is a danced based on process more than it is a legal principle). There most definitely is a potential conflict of interest between an attorney being paid by the insurer and representing the insured. Your description of what happens when it's clear insurance is maxed is largely hypothetical, since basically you're getting/settling for the insurance value unless the insured has significant assets. We both know what a judgement is often worth.

Basically the insurer offered nothing until I got a lawyer. They offered a ridiculously low amount after the complaint and didn't get serious until a week before trial. They outright said their intermediary offers were based on what I'd have to spend on my case and the inconvenience to me...so there really isn't principle of making whole involved in the pre-trial period, or book values of depreciation...just a dance of who has to pay what, when with what levels of associated risk.

In the end they (the insurer) paid a lot more than they would have if they had settled earlier with me...but they also know that for every one of me that cost them, there are 10 others that take less early. In the end with my case I lost as I estimate it, my lawyer got a reasonable fee based on his work, I have no idea what the isured/insurer's lawyer made (my understanding is these are low, volume based, fees) and the insurer definitely lost. Society as a whole lost because of court bandwidth and judge time this needlessly took.

The big winner was the doctor...who was paid more money for his "narrative" than he got on the actual medical procedures.

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Old 05-22-16, 02:54 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake
I don't disagree with your conclusion.

Basically most of the working people I know, including most of my relatives, are attorneys. I spent 7 years as the only non-attorney in my department. I eventually had to choose between accounting and law...and accounting classes were cheaper.
Yes, it most definitely is a dance. We have an "adversarial" legal system, where the assumption is that truth and fairness are the outcome of a best effort tug of war. That may be true, but the key players (the attorneys on both sides) tend to be the only winners since they're the only ones playing. The various parties are strictly sideliners or bit players, and while there may eventually be justice, it won't be swift or cheap.
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Old 05-22-16, 03:03 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
Yes, it most definitely is a dance. We have an "adversarial" legal system, where the assumption is that truth and fairness are the outcome of a best effort tug of war. That may be true, but the key players (the attorneys on both sides) tend to be the only winners since they're the only ones playing. The various parties are strictly sideliners or bit players, and while there may eventually be justice, it won't be swift or cheap.
In my case the Doctor/hospital definitely won more than anyone else did by the measurement of having done less for more. The attorneys were paid decently, but they had to work for what they did...and I would have gotten less money without them. They earned their cut. The doctor/hospital getting more money for a narrative than they got for combined MRIs, X-rays, visits, physical therapy and an emergency room stay definitely reached obscene, inappropriate levels. I find it hard to believe that they aren't subject to any cap at all when they should be compelled to testify like anyone else. Apparently I should have chosen my doctor based on market pricing of depositions.

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Old 05-22-16, 03:32 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake
In my case the Doctor/hospital definitely won more than anyone else did by the measurement of having done less for more.
The doctors likely see it as fair compensation for the huge amounts lawyers and insurance companies cost them in malpractice insurance.
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Old 05-22-16, 04:24 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by agenkin
Thanks for the input, everyone. I am planning to talk to a lawyer once I get the insurance company's position in writing. However, I doubt that it would make sense to hire a lawyer for a case amounting to about $3K. But I may get some advice.


This is more or less what I'm thinking. Also, there is no well established Blue Book for bikes, i.e. no standard way to determine depreciated value of a bicycle.
Were you injured as well? You have more than one avenue to pursue, and consultation with a lawyer is often at little or no charge. insurance companies are BUSINESSES, not a fraternal order of monks. The insurance requirements for motorists and their vehicles may also be variable...in the US most states set a minimum level of insurance and that may not cover replacing your bike.

And YES, most vehicles depreciate rapidly, regardless of the type. Vintage and customized auto owners may have policies covering the uniqueness, rarity or difficulty of getting repairs as well. You don't always have to carry 'full' coverage, so the insurance adjuster may be offering what is covered by the policyholder and nothing more.

A lawyer is a necessity these days, if you need one you shouldn't hesitate to inquire. They are they to help you and also meet your budget.
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Old 05-22-16, 05:35 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by CB HI
The doctors likely see it as fair compensation for the huge amounts lawyers and insurance companies cost them in malpractice insurance.
No - they're being *****s because it's unregulated, and because no one has a fair market alternative when it's relevant. They also aren't being compensated by attorneys, or insurance companies; their fees come from plaintiff's pocket.

Poor doctors...being held to the same standards of negligence as everyone else.
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Old 05-24-16, 03:12 PM
  #85  
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I googled "Toronto small claims court" and the first it was a link to a how-to guide. For some reason, the website won't let me paste the URL in but you should be able to find it.
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Old 05-25-16, 09:46 PM
  #86  
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Spoke with a lawyer today. Sounds like small claims court is what I should do. I have to sue the driver, not the insurance company.
I will give one more try to speak with the supervisor of the adjuster, and then file a claim.
Thanks for all the input, everyone.
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Old 05-25-16, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by agenkin
Spoke with a lawyer today. Sounds like small claims court is what I should do. I have to sue the driver, not the insurance company.
I will give one more try to speak with the supervisor of the adjuster, and then file a claim.
Thanks for all the input, everyone.
Get estimates of the bike's value from a couple of shops, file for the maximum allowed, add in anything you can think of...damage to clothes, missed work...google tort damages for some ideas. You won't get it, but it doesn't hurt as a starting place. Research regulations regarding insurance damage settlements...assuming they have obligation xxx, file a complaint.

At the point that they have to bring in an attorney to defend their client, the cost to them is probably not worth the aggravation over what is not significant damages. I'm honestly surprised they'd be nickel and diming when they should be happy there's no medical stuff. Like someone said earlier - a lot of the time they'll go at, or near, replacement value just to settle it quickly/cheaply.

Last edited by KonAaron Snake; 05-25-16 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 05-25-16, 11:46 PM
  #88  
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I might not be a bicycle insurance pro ,but I did stay in a holiday inn express last night ! Anyway ,I used to own an automotive repair shop and over the years have dealt with 100's of insurance claims with my customers .I also live in Ontario so my info is relevant .Anyways whenever a customer feels they are getting a low ball offer from the insurance ,I do my very best to price out the same vehicle in the province mileage,options,Condition ,I would think with a bike it wouldn't matter so much the brand ,but the components and general quality of the bike should be close .Anyways ,if after finding the closest thing to yours you are still not happy with their offer ,then call the insurance and ask them to find you the same bike for what they are offering you .Since hopefully you did your homework beforehand ,slip in the price of the bike you did find ,something along the lines of ,'I would like to see where you got your valuation for my bike because I have been looking very hard and have not found anything even close to mine for under $2700.00 ' .I have had 100% success using this method and have in the end got everything I ever asked for every time for my customers .
i only read the first three pages of this thread ,so I apologise if someone already posted the same info .
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Old 05-26-16, 06:30 AM
  #89  
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I had a car accident once, a young girl ran a stop sign. She claims that she didn't see it because the sun was in her eyes. I hit her Honda with my older Mercedes in the right front wheel. Her car was almost ripped in half, I drove my car home (luckily no injuries). But...when it came time to pay for my damages (Mercedes part are expensive),the insurance company low balled. I stated that I was enduring continuous neck and back pain ever since that accident and didn't want to talk about car damages until I saw a specialist.
Long story, cut short..... they tripled their offer on the car damages and I took it. Sometimes, you have to play hard ball to get justice!
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Old 05-26-16, 04:12 PM
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Remind the Ins company that a bike cannot be repaired like a car. You could hint to that the longer it takes to get a new bike the worse your back seems to hurt.
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Old 05-27-16, 08:35 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
Remind the Ins company that a bike cannot be repaired like a car. You could hint to that the longer it takes to get a new bike the worse your back seems to hurt.
Following advice like this will provide the insurance company a "hint" of the integrity of the claimant.
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Old 05-27-16, 11:38 AM
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This article has really great info about what to do when you're hit by a car, as well as a link to a national network of lawyers who specialize in bicycle/vehicle crashes.
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Old 05-27-16, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by 1Woman2Wheels
This article has really great info about what to do when you're hit by a car,
Some police departments will not do a police report and do not want you to even call them unless the damage is over $3,000 and maybe $5,000 in some areas. Other police departments will not do a report unless someone was taken away in an ambulance, regardless of the amount of material damage.
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Old 05-28-16, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by NYMXer
I had a car accident once, a young girl ran a stop sign. She claims that she didn't see it because the sun was in her eyes. I hit her Honda with my older Mercedes in the right front wheel. Her car was almost ripped in half, I drove my car home (luckily no injuries). But...when it came time to pay for my damages (Mercedes part are expensive),the insurance company low balled. I stated that I was enduring continuous neck and back pain ever since that accident and didn't want to talk about car damages until I saw a specialist.
Long story, cut short..... they tripled their offer on the car damages and I took it. Sometimes, you have to play hard ball to get justice!

Exactly.
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Old 05-28-16, 09:08 AM
  #95  
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This is so stupid, because replacing even a $5000 bike is peanuts to what Ins companies usually have to pay out for an accident.
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Old 05-28-16, 04:02 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by rydabent
Remind the Ins company that a bike cannot be repaired like a car. You could hint to that the longer it takes to get a new bike the worse your back seems to hurt.
Be VERY vareful following advice like that. There's a legal term that an insurance company might jump on if you try that. The term is "Extortion" or perhaps even fraud.

Cheers
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Old 05-28-16, 05:21 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by Miele Man
Be VERY vareful following advice like that. There's a legal term that an insurance company might jump on if you try that. The term is "Extortion" or perhaps even fraud.

Cheers
I would also apply that sound advice to anyone considering applying the example of a previous poster who "I stated that I was enduring continuous neck and back pain ever since that accident and didn't want to talk about car damages until I saw a specialist" unless evidence of a continuous medical condition after the accident has been or can be documented.
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Old 05-28-16, 05:47 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
I would also apply that sound advice to anyone considering applying the example of a previous poster who "I stated that I was enduring continuous neck and back pain ever since that accident and didn't want to talk about car damages until I saw a specialist" unless evidence of a continuous medical condition after the accident has been or can be documented.
Agreed that hinting at fictitious ailments could land you in legal difficulties in addition to being immoral. OTOH, I think that when I showed up at the insurance adjuster's office still wearing lots of bandages for the road rash for which I was *not* making any claim, that it made him quite eager to settle the bike damage for the full requested amount in exchange for my signature that I was not making any other claims for this incident.

But it does seem to me that it would be entirely legitimate to point out the limited number of bikes available on the used market at any given time and that if the settlement is limited to what the victim could have gotten for the bike in a quick sale then its likely going to take quite a long time for a suitable bike (same or better component level, correct frame size, suitable geometry, etc.) to appear in the market. In the interim the victim should be entitled to use of a suitable bike so the insurance company should cover the cost of a rental bike for this period which might amount to a considerable sum. OR, they could opt to increase the settlement amount making it more likely that the victim of the crash can find a bike on the used market more quickly and limit the amount of time he needs to pay rental fees (and submit them to the insurance company).
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Old 05-28-16, 09:54 PM
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I ride a 3 year old Catrike 700 recumbent trike that sold for $2.850 new. If an insurance adjuster offered me $1,500 for it after an accident that was the fault of the car driver I would file in small claims court the following day against the driver. I can print out enough sale information using adhuntr.com to show that the asking price for this year and this trike is always still over $2K, sometimes over that. I'd tell the judge that I would be happy to take a used 2013 trike replacement if the defendant can find one and buy it cheaper.
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Old 05-28-16, 10:39 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by VegasTriker
I ride a 3 year old Catrike 700 recumbent trike that sold for $2.850 new. If an insurance adjuster offered me $1,500 for it after an accident that was the fault of the car driver I would file in small claims court the following day against the driver. I can print out enough sale information using adhuntr.com to show that the asking price for this year and this trike is always still over $2K, sometimes over that. I'd tell the judge that I would be happy to take a used 2013 trike replacement if the defendant can find one and buy it cheaper.
Other than the short timetable, this is exactly how it's done. There's no disagreement about you being entitled to the cost of repair or current market replacement (depreciated) value.

The issue is what exactly that is. So whether you're working with an adjuster or making your case in court, you need to gather evidence to support you're opinion of what the market value is. The adjuster will be doing the same thing, and the judge will decide based on which evidence he feels is more credible, or, as small claims judges often do, split the difference.
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Last edited by FBinNY; 05-28-16 at 10:43 PM.
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