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Cyclist killed in Montreal

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Cyclist killed in Montreal

Old 07-07-21, 10:48 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Or you are driving too fast, or your tire blew, or the road was deceptively slippery, or...

Without facts, your bet is no better than anyone else's. Also, you keep shifting between "betting on" and "assuming". Those are not the same thing.
Slippery dry pavement?
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Old 07-07-21, 10:58 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by prj71
Slippery dry pavement?
Exactly, look at the photo of the accident site in the OP's first post
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Old 07-07-21, 11:10 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by prj71
Slippery dry pavement?

A. Something could have been spilled on the road.
B. Patching material may have bad traction. I had a bike go out from under me when the road was completely dry on some rubbery compound they used to patch the road.
C. Probably about a dozen different scenarios I could make up if I wanted to waste my time.

The point is there's plenty of other possible causes other than cell phones. Frankly, I see a lot more people taking curves and turns at completely unreasonable speeds and doing crazy swerves around slower traffic than I do people texting. To be honest, even if you're anti-driver, I don't know why you jump at the distracted driving explanation when there's zillions of aggressive drivers out there.
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Old 07-07-21, 11:21 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
A. Something could have been spilled on the road.
B. Patching material may have bad traction. I had a bike go out from under me when the road was completely dry on some rubbery compound they used to patch the road.
The pavement on that road was clean, dry, and unpatched. Given that the car was not that badly damaged even though it had run into a large tree, it wasn't going all that fast. The curve is so gentle, you could stay on the road at twice the speed limit.
I did mention that I rode by when paramedics were still on site. It was a warm dry spring day. Look at the photo in post #1
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Old 07-07-21, 01:17 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
A. Something could have been spilled on the road.
B. Patching material may have bad traction. I had a bike go out from under me when the road was completely dry on some rubbery compound they used to patch the road.
You keep digging yourself a deeper hole here. We are talking about what the car did here not the bike.

When is the last time your car spun out and you weren't able to navigate a curve because of some rubbery compound they used to patch the road?
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Old 07-07-21, 06:15 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by prj71
You keep digging yourself a deeper hole here. We are talking about what the car did here not the bike.

When is the last time your car spun out and you weren't able to navigate a curve because of some rubbery compound they used to patch the road?

No, you're creating a distraction by picking one throwaway example explanation from a list of reasons other than cell use for missing a curve. Want some more? Maybe the driver had a seizure/stroke/cororonary event. Maybe the driver screwed up the turn by trying to pass another car illegally (I've almost been killed myself by someone pulling that stunt), maybe the driver fell asleep, should I keep going? Point is cell phone use is one possible explanation among many, and I don't think you have the statistics to tell us that it's more likely than many of the others.

We've had two people on this thread who ride this road. One says it's fine, the other says its design seems to invite speeding. Take from that what you will.
​​​​
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Old 07-07-21, 09:25 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
The world where not every driver is texting
Most drivers don't kill cyclists either.

Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
not every collision is the result of a texting driver
A lot of them are.
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Old 07-07-21, 09:37 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
No, you're creating a distraction by picking one throwaway example explanation from a list of reasons other than cell use for missing a curve. Want some more? Maybe the driver had a seizure/stroke/cororonary event. Maybe the driver screwed up the turn by trying to pass another car illegally (I've almost been killed myself by someone pulling that stunt), maybe the driver fell asleep, should I keep going? Point is cell phone use is one possible explanation among many, and I don't think you have the statistics to tell us that it's more likely than many of the others.

We've had two people on this thread who ride this road. One says it's fine, the other says its design seems to invite speeding. Take from that what you will.
​​​​
I am the 2 people who commented if you had bothered to notice who made those comments. Yes, the road does tend to invite speeding, but proper enforcement by police might reduce that problem, However, this case is not about that. The driver's car was not damaged enough to indicate that high speed was a factor here as I said in another of my posts. The road is not heavily travelled, and the crash happened during a very low traffic period, passing was not a factor. The driver was young, health problems are unlikely. The driver had made a stop and either a left or right hand turn less than 30 seconds before going off the road, unlikely they fell asleep. Please go on with other wild suppositions

Last edited by alcjphil; 07-07-21 at 09:41 PM.
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Old 07-08-21, 01:54 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by alcjphil
I am the 2 people who commented if you had bothered to notice who made those comments. Yes, the road does tend to invite speeding, but proper enforcement by police might reduce that problem, However, this case is not about that. The driver's car was not damaged enough to indicate that high speed was a factor here as I said in another of my posts. The road is not heavily travelled, and the crash happened during a very low traffic period, passing was not a factor. The driver was young, health problems are unlikely. The driver had made a stop and either a left or right hand turn less than 30 seconds before going off the road, unlikely they fell asleep. Please go on with other wild suppositions
My mistake, you are the two.
Sorry, but unless you actually saw the crash, you can't know whether the speed was the same when they missed the turn as when they hit the tree. I also have seen plenty of drivers perform all kinds of stupid maneuvers on non-crowded roads, including the illegal pass that almost got me. You also have no idea what the health status of a young person is. Actually, microsleep is a very common occurrence, you have no idea how long the person had been awake.

I'm fully aware that I'm engaging in supposition here. My point is that that each of those suppositions is identical in validity as assuming cell phone usage. It may turn out a cell phone was involved, it may turn out she was drunk, it may turn out it was any number of things. If anything, I'm just pointing out how obnoxious it is that so many people here use these crashes to rail against whatever is their pet accident cause without bothering to find out whether it actually was the cause. So I'll stop supposing when you and the other guy do.

Not this case, but I swear, someone could post a story about a cyclist getting killed by a bathtub falling out of a building, and someone on a&s would post that the bathtub was using a cell phone.

And if you care to explain why "the driver picked up a cell phone to text in the 30 seconds after they performed that turn" isn't as wild supposition as my supposition, I'm all ears.

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Old 07-08-21, 05:27 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by homeless in ca.
Most drivers don't kill cyclists either.
True.
Originally Posted by homeless in ca.
A lot of them are.
"A lot" is certainly a vague enough qualifier to possibly be true for any potential cause of a collision. Any reference to credible data on percentage of collisions or fatalities/serious injuries to cyclists (or anyone else) actually caused by texting drivers? Please no anecdotes, theoretical extrapolations from classroom "studies", or the suppositions from somebody on the Internet.
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Old 07-08-21, 07:48 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
And if you care to explain why "the driver picked up a cell phone to text in the 30 seconds after they performed that turn" isn't as wild supposition as my supposition, I'm all ears.
If you go back and look at all my responses you will see that I never ever wrote one word to suggest that I thought that the driver was texting, that was someone else
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Old 07-08-21, 02:30 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by alcjphil
If you go back and look at all my responses you will see that I never ever wrote one word to suggest that I thought that the driver was texting, that was someone else
No, but you chose to scold me about my "wild suppositions" and counter-argue with a bunch of them when I never suggested that any one of them was the likely cause of the crash while expressing no problem with a guy who is claiming it's perfectly reasonable to "assume" it was a texting driver. So, if you care to explain why you would selectively scold like that, feel free.
My point was that speculating on the "likely" cause is not reasonable because there's limitless possibilities of explanations. Any one of them is unlikely, even the texting--did the driver actually perform a turn, then pull out a phone and start texting only to drive straight in a curve within 30 seconds? It was an unlikely event, it will have an unlikely explanation. "Betting" on it is stupid.
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Old 07-08-21, 04:58 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
No, but you chose to scold me about my "wild suppositions" and counter-argue with a bunch of them when I never suggested that any one of them was the likely cause of the crash while expressing no problem with a guy who is claiming it's perfectly reasonable to "assume" it was a texting driver. So, if you care to explain why you would selectively scold like that, feel free.
While on the topic of "selective scolding," perhaps you can explain away your own version - "The thing that bothers me is it seems to break down to 'it's always cell phones' vs. 'cell phones aren't a serious problem.' Both sides are dead wrong."

What "side", or individual has ever posted on BF "cell phones aren't a serious problem"? Or anything that a rational or logical person would interpret to have that meaning?

Certainly you couldn't mean any poster who previously made the same points that you have accurately been stating in this thread about posters speculating, assuming and or betting about the cause of specific collisions without any evidence other than their own biases and fears, and make wild [size=13px]suppositions[/size] to explain away such collisions.

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Old 07-08-21, 05:10 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
While on the topic of "selective scolding," perhaps you can explain away your own version - "The thing that bothers me is it seems to break down to 'it's always cell phones' vs. 'cell phones aren't a serious problem.' Both sides are dead wrong."

What "side", or individual has ever posted on BF "cell phones aren't a serious problem"?
I'm not going to dig it out, but you've been close enough to it several times over the years. You and I've had our go-rounds on this, I really don't feel like rehashing it.

​​ I certainly get a lot of "who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes" off of your safety posts generally.

A&S is just a Punch & Judy show for the most part. No wonder barely anybody reads this stuff.
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Old 07-08-21, 08:59 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
I'm not going to dig it out, but you've been close enough to it several times over the years. You and I've had our go-rounds on this, I really don't feel like rehashing it.

​​ I certainly get a lot of "who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes" off of your safety posts generally.

A&S is just a Punch & Judy show for the most part. No wonder barely anybody reads this stuff.
Of course you are not going "to dig it out" when you can't, but instead will keep rehashing straw man arguments and misrepresenrtations of my posts.
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Old 07-08-21, 09:11 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Of course you are not going "to dig it out" when you can't, but instead will keep rehashing straw man arguments and misrepresenrtations of my posts.
Nice troll, not biting.
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Old 07-09-21, 12:04 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
No, but you chose to scold me about my "wild suppositions" and counter-argue with a bunch of them when I never suggested that any one of them was the likely cause of the crash while expressing no problem with a guy who is claiming it's perfectly reasonable to "assume" it was a texting driver. So, if you care to explain why you would selectively scold like that, feel free.
I simply stated facts about the road conditions which I am very familiar with and personal observations of the crash site. I expressed nothing about anything anyone else said about the causes of the crash.
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Old 07-09-21, 04:57 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by alcjphil
I simply stated facts about the road conditions which I am very familiar with and personal observations of the crash site. I expressed nothing about anything anyone else said about the causes of the crash.

Well, since you did that in order to join an argument between a guy who was claiming it was almost certainly texting and my simple assertion that there's entirely too many possible causes to make a claim like that,, not saying anything about his side of the argument is a tell.

And no, "simply stated facts" is not what you did. You drew probabilistic conclusions from your observations, and eliminated any possibilities but cell phones. You're just annoyed because one of the factors (the 30 seconds thing) that you claimed made falling asleep highly unlikely also made texting highly unlikely. BTW, you didn't actually observe the turn, so you really don't know whether she was all over the road during and after the turn.
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Old 07-09-21, 02:38 PM
  #44  
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Since we all know why car crashes happen I wonder why the Montreal Police have this bunch?!?!?!

https://spvm.qc.ca/en/Pages/Discover...uction-Officer and
https://spvm.qc.ca/en/Pages/Discover...cer--Collision

I have seen teams like these in the US work on several occasions, and they take their job pretty seriously. Let's let them investigate this.

-Dan

PS: I spent 10 years as a fire / medic responder from 2000 to 2010 and I don't think I ever saw a crash caused by someone texting and driving, but I was in a very remote area with very poor cellular phone service. Not the norm over the whole US, but using a cell phone while driving is not the only cause of crashes. There are lots of things people can do that make you shake your head and wonder...
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Old 07-09-21, 03:59 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
True.

"A lot" is certainly a vague enough qualifier to possibly be true for any potential cause of a collision. Any reference to credible data on percentage of collisions or fatalities/serious injuries to cyclists (or anyone else) actually caused by texting drivers? Please no anecdotes, theoretical extrapolations from classroom "studies", or the suppositions from somebody on the Internet.


The statistics from ICBC reveal that in 2013, 28% of fatal accidents were caused by speeding, 23% by drunk driving, and 29% by driver distractions.

Driver wasn't drunk or speeding. Road was dry. Distracted driving (texting) is the most likely explanation.
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Old 07-09-21, 05:21 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by homeless in ca.
The statistics from ICBC reveal that in 2013, 28% of fatal accidents were caused by speeding, 23% by drunk driving, and 29% by driver distractions.

Driver wasn't drunk or speeding. Road was dry. Distracted driving (texting) is the most likely explanation.
You don't know if the driver was sober or speeding. And not all distractions are texting.
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Old 07-09-21, 06:02 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by alcjphil
I am the 2 people who commented if you had bothered to notice who made those comments.
Are you posting under two user names?

Originally Posted by KC56
This story is tragic and horrible. There are so many of us who cycle that stretch of road, which one would think to be comparatively safe considering the width, the speed limit, and the bike lane shoulders. But then there are drivers like this one out there. Does anyone know the follow up to this news story and whether the investigation turned up anything that led to charges being laid against her?
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Old 07-09-21, 07:28 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
You don't know if the driver was sober or speeding. And not all distractions are texting.
Of course we know the driver was sober or the police would have told us.

Brabant explained the crash happened after the vehicle, for an unknown reason, continued on its trajectory in a curve hitting the cyclist.

And people speed along that road all the time without losing control of their cars. That leaves texting. The driver wasn't watching the road because she was playing with her phone.
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Old 07-09-21, 07:42 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by homeless in ca.
Of course we know the driver was sober or the police would have told us.

Brabant explained the crash happened after the vehicle, for an unknown reason, continued on its trajectory in a curve hitting the cyclist.

And people speed along that road all the time without losing control of their cars. That leaves texting. The driver wasn't watching the road because she was playing with her phone.

That's just dumb. Do you have any idea how long it takes drug tests to come back? You're just guessing based on your preconceptions.

And if they would have said whether the driver was drinking, why wouldn't they say if the driver was texting?

Unknown reason means they don't know. But you do apparently. Your psychic powers are astounding.
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Old 07-09-21, 07:59 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
That's just dumb. Do you have any idea how long it takes drug tests to come back? You're just guessing based on your preconceptions.

And if they would have said whether the driver was drinking, why wouldn't they say if the driver was texting?

Unknown reason means they don't know. But you do apparently. Your psychic powers are astounding.
Nope. Police can do breathalyzer and saliva test for weed on the spot. And if they suspect impairment they wouldn't say the cause was "unknown".

Driver was texting.
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