tetonrider

when i first got di2 i was so blown away by the front shifting that i spent a long time thinking about the reasons i found it better.

i've written this before, but in some ways di2 front shifting (i'm talking 7970) felt slower to me than 7800 and 7900 mechanical. however, it shifted perfectly every single time.

too much time on my hands/lots of solo time on the bike made me realize that the reason mechanical gives the impression of a faster front shift (sometimes) is that when you push the lever to shift to the big ring, the chain is immediately jammed into the big ring. the actual shift doesn't happen until the chain hits the ramps, but there's noise and that jamming is something you can really feel, immediately.

with di2, there is of course the disconnect we have with a button press in an electronic system vs a lever that pulls a physical cable. it responds in a very controlled way (i'd say "perfect") that is the same every single time. as mentioned above, there's a slight overshift before it settles into position. the system knows where the chain is based on the positions of the front and rear derailleurs and can adjust the amount it overshifts and corrects for any combination.

it's hard to call di2 slow, and i only do so in comparison to the noise/impression that the mechanical system is doing something quicker when in reality the shift itself is not happening faster at all.

as doge's kid experienced, di2 still requires proper setup, and there's no excuse for not running a catcher, but a properly setup di2 system allows one to basically abuse the shifting in a way most of us wouldn't even attempt in a properly setup mechanical system.
@Ygduf -- i was just explaining this to a friend a few hours ago who just switched his bikes to di2. (his first comments were about how he was blown away by di2 for his TT rig.) i often swap between wheels with hubs from 4 manufacturers without any adjustment at all. the method shovel described for initial system setup definitely isn't necessary when swapping most wheels...you can often do the on-the-fly method described by globe -- the di2 equivalent of 1/8 turn in a mechanical system. if i've gotten a neutral wheel, i occasionally might need this adjustment. i happen not to need it with my own wheels.

although hub widths are supposed to follow a standard, in reality there's always a chance that a cassette on one wheel is offset just a bit relative to what your system is setup for. most commonly, it's just a slow shift that is noticeable in a gear or two and fixed by globe's method.

i know some otherwise intelligent people who cannot seem to figure out whether to add or release tension to make the proper adjustment in a mechanical system yet the di2 adjustment is more intuitive. (when in adjustment mode, the buttons work in by moving the pulleys in the same direction as regular mode, but instead of moving a full step (2.2mm), the RD moves 0.1mm--in the same direction.)

all else equal (FD, RD, chain, cassette, crank arms, spider), i haven't been able to tell the difference between ultegra and DA rings (7900/6700 & up), but i can tell the difference between shimano rings and others when shifting under load.

globecanvas

Speaking as an otherwise intelligent person, here's a tip for that, to make sure you're turning the barrel adjuster the right way, from the start. If your RD is making noise and you don't want to get off the bike, reach down and grab the exposed shifter cable under the down tube and pull it a little to one side. If the noise gets better, add tension at the barrel adjuster. If it gets worse, release tension.

tetonrider

it's not for everyone, but if you have a chance, hop on a bike with it. don't do it, though, if you are so strapped for cash that you can't pay whatever the difference for you might be...could be too frustrating if you decide you can't live without it.

it gets fun when you add some satellite shifters (sprinters!) or deal with weird routings (TT bikes).

tetonrider

all true, but most people are taught things like "righty-tighty, lefty-loosey", and the less-mechanically-inclined seem to get tripped up by the idea of loosening the bolt to add tension.

anyway....

spdntrxi

I rode EPS and Di2.. like it from the start but really not enough to pony up.. 9070 came out.. found some pretty good deals on it from eBay and built my wife bike up with it... yeah her bike was the test mule. Did a few long rides with it and was sold and 9070 went on my Parlee as well. The E-Tube stuff is what sold me on it.. EPS is lagging in that regard. I put climbing shifters on both bikes and that is very useful to me.

tetonrider

i have extras of what specialized includes--they're basically reducers for 30->24mm. you use the specialized PF30 cups & bearings.

i think the best solutions involve the least # of parts, so if it were my bike i'd prefer a set of cups + bearings + crank to cups + bearings + adapter + crank. if the praxis or wheels mfg cups + bearings can reduce to 24mm, then that's the better solution IMO.

tetonrider

it's a little more complex than that, but that's the basic idea.

you take at least 4 measurements unweighted then another 4 weighted (chain on big ring & small ring for both left & right arms forward).

carpediemracing 

One thing about electronic shifting. I spoke at length with an industry friend, a Campy fan/friend that is now riding SRAM for various reasons. He encouraged me to try out Di2. One thing he pointed out is that Shimano patented pretty much everything they could think of regarding electronic shifting, like programable shifters and such. Therefore there's not much left for Campy (in his example) to be able to do. Programmable shifters and related stuff, the stuff that more technical users (like shovel or teton) rave about, it's only available on Shimano.

No word on SRAM nor on bricking a Campy, but Shimano's broad patent claims are one thing that I found really interesting. We're back to pre-index days where actual patents determine features and maybe even shift performance, and Shimano has a huge advantage at this time. I don't know if they patented battery shape etc.

For the riders under, say, 25-30 years old, index shifting became possible when Suntour's slant parallelogram derailleur patent expired. Until then Shimano's rear derailleur plates were vertical to the ground. This meant the pulleys moved left-right, not down/left, up/right, and the derailleur wasn't really accurate nor quick. Once Shimano could use the slant parallelogram design they added compression-less housing (new), slightly better cog design (new), and hardened chain pins (critical and new - most early failures were where people didn't buy the expensive chains and they broke a regular chain within an hour or three of riding).

Later they added Hyperglide cogs (the ramps and really rounded shorter teeth). Etc etc.

shovelhd

The adjustment I described is the complete adjustment. No more no less. You can tweak the adjustment in seconds, while you are on the bike, if needed. I've never had to do that with either version of Di2.

Doge

In the software world (the one I live in), typically those patents don't hold/or are not enforced. If another program is developed that does the same thing and has the same look and feel its allowed. And while a program that trim adjusts the FD on a RD shift is very cool, it could be argued noting is new - its just a program doing what people do now. At a minimum it makes Campy move a bit of time and money to lawyers from engineers.

shovelhd

It's definitely true in the bike world. It's all about how vigorously you want to defend your patents, brands and trademarks. Witness Speedplay, Specialized, ad infinitum.

caloso

It always trips me up. I have to think it through, which is hard enough to do when I'm standing next to the bike, much less riding it.

echappist

That rule applies to only regular threads following the right-hand rule, and people should try it on a left side pedal or a right side threaded bottom bracket cup to see where it gets them. The inability to understand regular thread vs reverse thread and having to rely upon a meme is a sign of the failure of the secondary education system as apparently no one paid attention in physics class. If there's one takeaway from physics class that's actually useful in real life, it'd be this.

mattm

oh please

Ygduf

******/r/iamverysmart

I still use Roy G. Biv to remember the rainbow, guess I'm ****ed.

globecanvas

Battle ends and down goes charlie's father.

Wylde06

Thats assuming one took a physics class

echappist

There is no exception to Roy G Biv. Exception to the right hand rule are abound in real life, especially cycling. Or say when you try to weld or use H2 gas.

that and the fact that righty-loosey is a bit more complicated. Righty? Right of what? If i'm looking head on at a screw what does it mean to turn it right? There's only cw and ccw

caloso

My very educated mother just served us nine (pizzas).

Ygduf

I don't think that's true for a vast majority of people, to which the basic education is given. If there were that many exceptions in the experiences of most people the mnemonic would lose is popularity.

rkwaki

Here's some real life physics for you...
Don't stand down wind when rkwaki has had 300+ grams of protein...

hack

Nice.

Oil Rig (Oxidation is Lost, Reduction is Gained)

and

Camels Often Sit Down Carefully, Perhaps Their Joints Creak (Cambrian, Ordivician, Silurian, Devonian, Carboniferous, Permian, Triassic, Jurassic, Cretaceous)

saved me a few times during undergrad.

mattm

wut

Wylde06

I think im just as lost as you are right now. And if you arent, then I don't know where I am.

hack

planets sans (pluto)