InvertedMP 

So I have a set of Foundation 45s that I really like so far. Fully aware and on board that it requires a hookless tire and that there is a compatibility list. With the wheels being new, tires are added to the approved/not approved list as time goes on. The SES AR also require a hookless tire, and the Michelin Power Road TLR is on the approved list, but that is a hooked tire as far as I can tell. I presume these tires will also be added to the approved list on the Foundations as they are eventually tested. My question is, why would some hooked tires work on these wheels, and some don't?

Cyclist0108

https://www.renehersecycles.com/enve...e-herse-tires/

WhyFi

That I'm aware of, there's no such thing (in the road tire world) as a hookless tire, there are simply tires that are compatible with hookless rims.

As far as why some tires are compatible and others aren't, I assume that it's mostly a matter of tolerances - bead diameter, how much the beads will stretch after use, sidewall stiffness, etc.

scottydonald

I emailed Enve the other day

Pirelli P Zero was on the foundation list but not on the 4.5AR Disc list but they replied saying they passed the internal testing so were fine for my 4.5s, it was too late and I had already ordered Schwalbe Pro Ones.

mstateglfr 

I can repeat the benefits of a hookless rim for road, but is a hookless rim noticably better in practice?
Is a cyclist measurably faster or more comfortable with the smoother interface and ever so slightly different tire shape?...or are those benefits more theoretical because they can't be measured or noticed by amateur enthusiast cyclists and the real benefit is easier/cheaper manufacturing?

WhyFi

My Zipp 303S were a very noticeable step up over my Reynold's Assualts with the same tire, though the internal width difference was pretty significant (23mm hookless vs 17mm hooked, respectively). They're definitely more comfy (modern 28mm @ ~60psi for me at ~180lbs) and so much more surefooted when throwing them in to a corner. The tire/rim transition is much, much smoother; while that's supposedly more aero, it's also beyond the resolution of any seat-of-my-pants measurements. They were also much better bang-for-the-buck, though there have been more manufacturing advances/differences than just hookless vs not in the 5 years between them. To me, the transition from Assaults to 303S has been, for lack of a better way of saying it, a handful of marginal gains, within one product, that have made a significant overall difference. Along those lines, a little more than a year ago, I went from a Domane with Assaults to an R3 with 303S. Both were improvements to me, but if I could choose only one of those upgrades, I'd be hard-pressed to make a decision - I think that's saying a lot.

Anyway, my overall take is: if you've bought in to wide (28mm and up) and you've bought in to tubeless, seriously consider them. If you're against or on the fence for either, then sit it out and don't worry about it.

sfrider 

It makes the rim easier to manufacture and hence less expensive. Same as rims without brake tracks.

Aero is like weight, any one point of savings doesn't make any real difference, but it all adds up when you have dozens or hundreds of points of savings. In this case it moves all the numbers in the right direction - more aero, lighter, AND cheaper with few if any tradeoffs. That's pretty unusual, and personally I think this is why hookless is the future.

Sy Reene

Comparing the Enve SES 3.4 regular to the AR, the weight savings for the AR seems significant (rims for the wheelset about 130g difference). Does that little bead hook really weigh that much? Here's the diagram of the 2 models, with the AR of note also a good amount wider and a tiny bit deeper. The AR would be more aero with a wider tire (eg. 30mm), but would this be more aero than running the nonAR with a 25mm tire? On Enve's site at least, the cost is identical.


SES 3.4

SES 3.4 AR

Iride01 

We went through this stuff in the 70's and 80's. Must we go through this again?

Hiro11

I have a set of SES AR 4.5s. My understanding is this has to do with bead diameter, profile and stiffness. Giant, Zipp and Corima all sell hookless rims and all have published similar lists. I'll bet you can use any tubeless ready tire you want without issue, Enve just wants to ensure 100% safety. I blame tire manufacturers far having varying bead dimensions and not sticking to ETRTO more than Enve for being picky here. Personally, I wanted to use Gravelking slicks anyway and they're on the approved list.

I have multiple sets of both hooked and hookless wheels. They are functionally the same in terms of mounting tires and maintaining pressure reliably. All things being equal and if the industry could settle on a bead standard here, I think hookless is a superior setup to hooked beads:
1. Hookless is likely stronger than hooked beads with the same amount of material as it's just a thick wall of carbon instead of an cantilevered hook. This is really tough to prove in the real world, but certainly the hookless walls on the SES ARs are reassuringly beefy.
2. Allows a noticeably broader / more straight-walled tire profile at any given internal rim width. This is both cushier and (slightly) more aero. This is not just theoretical, the 32mm GKs I'm running measure at 34.5mm on the rims and have a very broad profile. The resulting ride is terrific.
3. Significantly cheaper to manufacture, although this doesn't really matter with Enve. Zipp does credit the price drop on the 303 with moving to hookless.
4. Can be significantly lighter. Zipp has said their hookless 303s are apparently 300g lighter than the hooked version.

One thing to note is you can't run anything close to a high pressure on hookless rims. The SES ARs have a max pressure of 80 psi (I run about 40 psi on the 32s) and Zipp has a maximum of 72 psi on the 303s.

WhyFi

I wouldn't go this far and the Conti GP5000 TL is a notable example - they've been explicit in stating that they're not to be used hookless. Basically, I'd want to see confirmation from the tire manufacturer that a particular tire is approved in hookless applications and then I'd only use sizes that are reasonable for a given rim width. There are enough of these out there currently that it's not terribly hard to find good options for whatever kind of tire you have in mind.

That 72.5psi (5 bar) figure is the most common spec that you'll see, from both tire and wheel/rim manufacturers, because it's the proposed ETRTO hookless spec (or maybe it's finally been made official, I'm not sure). Regardless, given the rim and appropriate tire widths, this really only comes in to play for quite large roadies.

Hiro11

Yeah, the "approved lists" seems to be essentially "don't use GP5000TLs with this rim" for most of these manufacturers.

Racing Dan

There are no hookless road tire available. Every road tire out there has a side wall and bead shaped with a hooked rim in mind. A grove for the hook to fit with - Making all the marketing claims rather nebulous. Just inspect any road bike tyre you may have on hand, including any appearing on the "approved list". I cant imagine this situation changing anytime soon either, as there are also no hookless alloy road bike rims and likely newer will be as they are either incompatible with most tires or place severe pressure limitations on them

Imo hookless is a spiel to market cheaper carbon rims and make ppl think they are somehow "better", even if they are not really, and come bundled with a lot of drawbacks and limitations.

WhyFi

We know. It's not hard to notice that you take every opportunity to pop in to threads, on products that are supposedly of no interest to you, to enlighten us.

Sy Reene

I thought maybe this was the case, but another thread had me looking at the Cadex wheelsystems/tires (Giant owned). Evidently their race tires are intended/optimized to be run hookless, and their race wheels are all hookless. And their 28mm tire has a max sidewall PSI of 115psi, fwiw.

Racing Dan

Well, im sure you can find an exception, but then again, how is it "evident" they are optimized for hookless rims. Skimming through the cadex road tire web pages there is no mention of hookless anything. Judging from random pictures found in google, they look just like any other road bike tire, with a pronounced bead, not a straight wall. Also there is no mention of cadex (that I can find) in any zipp or enve compatability page. - This is the real down fall of hookless in its current state. You have no idea if a tire will work with your rim unless it appears in either the approved or not approved section of recommended tires for your rim.

WhyFi

And we're to believe that, with hookless-only tires, you wouldn't be kvetching about how it was breaking backwards compatibility, further fragmenting and confusing the road tire market, while also endangering those that might try to use them on their hooked rims?

We get it. This is a cloud that you like to shake your fist at. Now can we move along?

Sy Reene

See the 2nd bolded sentence. Taken from here: https://www.cadex-cycling.com/us/hoo...rim-technology

mstateglfr 

Funny- I think this for a moment pretty much every time I see a hookless rim thread.

jbasirico

No, but it's trivial to email the tire company and ask, which I have done a few times.

Seattle Forrest

Just like disc brakes, derailleurs, and pneumatic tires. We get it.

aclinjury

lol a list of tire compatiblity? goddamn i'd just not the wheels then. Ridiculous

Seattle Forrest

Once you find tires you like, how often do you try different ones? Either the wheels work with ones you like, or they don't.

colnago62

I ride with tubes, so I try out different tires all the time.
To the previous post; If trying out different tires is of high importance, Stick with with tubes. Do know that others might have a different need from their wheels than you and limited tire selection is a trade off they will accept.

WhyFi

I ride with hookless, tubeless wheels, which have the most restrictive compatibility list out there. In addition, no matter what wheels/rims I'm running, I'm going to limit my tire selection to only higher-end offering - life's too short for ****** tires. Even with these restrictions, I can carry on with my usual practice of trying different tires each year for the next several years with just what's on the market currently. It's really not a big deal once you look in to it.