buck mulligan

I'm at wit's end - completely desperate.

I overhauled the Sturmey Archer AW hub on my Raleigh, because it had almost 40 years of grime and old grease in it when I got it. It was sluggish and sticky, but it worked in all three gears. Now, however, it only works in 2nd and 3rd - in 1st gear, it just freewheels.

I mentioned this problem on another thread a while ago, and someone suggested that perhaps I had installed the low gear pawls backwards - so I cracked it open again and, lo and behold, the pawls were in fact reversed. I fixed that problem and re-assembled the hub, expecting it to work correctly. It didn't.

So, I spent a bunch of time studying, reading, Googling, and poring over old technical data (I was pleasantly surprised to learn that my library has a reference copy of Coaster & 3-Speed Bicycle Repair, published by Xyzyx Information Corp. in 1972). Last night, I opened the hub again and thoroughly examined everything. I looked for any signs of breakage or wear. I looked for any moving part that was failing to move smoothly. I looked for anything that wasn't adjusted exactly as the references specified (the right-hand cone was looser than specified, which gave me some hope that I had found the problem - but no joy).

For some reason, the pawls just aren't engaging. If I manipulate the indicator chain by hand, there is no way to engage first gear - there's just a big "neutral" space between the point of maximum tension in the indicator and the point where second gear engages. I'm looking for any suggestions - anything at all - as to what I should try next. No suggestion is too stupid or too obvious (remember, I'm the guy who originally installed the low gear pawls backwards). Mostly, I'm just looking for some brainstorming help - obviously, I'm missing something.

And, if all else fails, I would be interested in hearing any recommendations for Seattle area mechanics who might be qualified to work on this hub, and wouldn't charge a flat $175 to open it up, like Aaron's in West Seattle does. Thanks!

mstrpete

All I can think of is the length of travel of the indicator-have you tried at different settings? '1' is lever down-all the way out-maybe it isn't reaching enough? I confess I didn't open up the one on the Schwinn Breeze I just cleaned up-I just flushed it with solvent and refilled it with 5w-30 and it works fine.

buck mulligan

Right now I'm wishing that I had just flushed my hub with solvent rather than tear it down. It would have taken a while - there was a lot of grease packed in there - but in hindsight I think it would have been the better option.

I don't think that length of travel is the problem. In addition to using the trigger shifter, I've also tried simply manipulating the indicator by hand. There is a gap of probably 8 or 10 millimeters between the point where the indicator is fully withdrawn and the point where 2nd gear engages, and the hub freewheels throughout this range. Thanks for the suggestion, though.

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

When you pull the Indicator chain into 1st by hand, turn the cranks slowly forward. On my Sturmey AW it won't go into first while standing still...I've gotta be turning the cranks just a little to make it go in there.

helicomatic

It sounds to me like you could have shifted the axle to the left too far when you took the hub apart. Did you leave the left cone in place when you disassembled the hub?

disclaimer: by no means am I a Sturmey Archer guru.

buck mulligan

An interesting thought - I'll try this and see what happens.

Also interesting. I did remove the left cone when I disassembled the hub, because the guts won't come free of the left bearing race otherwise. I wouldn't think that the internals could be reassembled with the axle shifted laterally, but it's worth looking at - thanks.

helicomatic

Oops. Of course you removed the left hand cone. Did I say I wasn't a Sturmey guru? Let me amend that to say it's been six months or more since I took one apart, and even then wasn't doing it regularly. Guess I'll have to take apart all my hubs this weekend.

I remember one of the mechanics here having similar problems because he shifted the axle too far when he put the hub back together.

gna

MnHPVA guy, also known as Bikesmith, is very good with Sturmey Archer hubs. Send him a PM and maybe he can help you out.

I find this picture from wikipedia helpful (though I think one of the springs is upside down):

buck mulligan

Thanks for this suggestion. I hate to bug members that aren't participating in the thread, but I'll do it if I run out of ideas. I wouldn't feel too bad about contacting Mark, I suppose, because not only did I just buy a pair of crank cotters from him, I also referred another BF member to him and that member bought two pair of the cotters I recommended. Heck, that's almost a whole $10 in business!

Hmmm. That picture is very interesting. Two things I notice about it - first, it appears to show the rounded side of the axle key oriented to the left. This is almost certainly wrong, I think, because it seems to me that the flats should engage with the notches in the thrust ring, right? Not only does that make intuitive sense, it also fits what I seem to see in the exploded view I've been working from (attached below).

The second thing I notice is that the low gear pawls are oriented such that the side with the sharper angle is oriented to the outside, and the side with the shallower angle is oriented toward the center of the hub. I'm pretty sure that's the opposite of the way mine are oriented right now (I can't say for sure until later tonight or some time tomorrow, when I can get home and open everything up again). Can anyone confirm or deny that this is correct?

Thank you very much for helping - you've given me something to work with.

gna

Does Mark have some good cotters in stock? I should email him.

I think you're right about the key--I put mine in backwards and had to do it over when I had my hub apart. I can't really tell on the diagram you attached, but I'll check my old copy of Glenn's tonight.

I have an old Triumph that's got a sticky SA hub--maybe I'll take it apart this weekend. If I do, I'll take pictures when I take it apart as a reference. I assume you've looked at this:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/sturmey-...eassembly.html

buck mulligan

As of last week, anyway, he was out of the "Grade A" cotters in 9.5mm, but had the "Grade B" in stock. They were substantially better than the ones I was able to get locally (which appeared similar to what he calls "Grade D" - "good enough for your brother-in-law's bike").

The more I think about this, the more I think you may have stumbled on my answer. I have half a mind to leave work early today and go try it out.

gna

Last time I checked, he only had "Grade D," in stock, which is what I found elsewhere.
Hey, maybe I'll go play hooky, too.

gna

Ok, I checked Glenn's. You're right about the axle key; the flats fit into the cutouts of the thrust ring. The picture above does have the axle flipping over, so they may have lost track of the proper orientation.

As far as the low gear pawls, it's hard to tell without the illustrations, but "the long end of the pawl should be facing out."

buck mulligan

Success! The key was the photo that gna posted, showing the correct orientation of the pawls. Merely having them point in the correct direction is not enough; they have to be installed with the side with the shallower angle oriented toward the center, and the side with the sharper angle oriented toward the circumference of the hub. Now that I've "twisted" the pawls 180 degress, everything works fine. My 3-speed has 3 speeds again!

Much thanks to gna and everyone else who offered suggestions!

FlatTop

Good thread! I've only done one S-A hub (and with good results) so I'm shaky about the details. I think maybe I'll reassemble my spare loose hub right on the computer desk, with this thread and Sheldon's great article in front of me.

Any other online favorites for S-A technical info?

buck mulligan

Tony Hadland's site (https://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~ha...samaintind.htm) has links to all sorts of original SA tech manuals and such - good if you're working on an AW, but I imagine it would be really invaluable if you were working on one of the more exotic SA models for which there isn't as much information elsewhere.

There used to be a really cool step-by-step illustrated guide to overhauling AW hubs at https://www.karrot.org/ascotto/three_speed/, but it's been shut down for a couple of months. It can still be dug up on the Wayback Machine (https://www.archive.org/web/web.php), but it loads very slowly and the photos don't always load at all.

There's also a YouTube video showing the stripping and reassembly of an AW (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea6krXSs-lc), which is mostly useful for making it all look so easy and making you feel like an idiot if you can't do a complete overhaul in under ten minutes.

gna

You're welcome! I'm just glad I'm not the only one who likes old 3-speeds.

Funny, the first place I looked was the site you mentioned, but it's gone. As far as Graham's videos, he's got several related one that are very helpful.

So does this mean I can claim title as a SA guru?

FlatTop

Thanks! I have seen the YouTube video, and it is amusing in a Wonderama stunt contest sort of way, but as you say it's not particularly helpful; there are no closeup views of the parts as they're assembled.

The Hadland's site looks promising, I'll have to troubleshoot my Adobe utility first, though.

buck mulligan

My last bike (an early-90's Specialized) was stolen, which was a drag, but the truth is that it never really suited me. I had a limited budget (it was a Christmas gift) to spend at my LBS to replace it. I looked at a bunch of old bike boom 10-speeds and such, and none of them was really speaking to me - and then I saw the gold Raleigh. It was love at first sight.

Damn straight!

rhm

+1

gna

I'm claiming it, then-though Mark will probably kick my a**.

rhm

A Sturmey Archer guru, or an SA guru. Not the Sturmey Archer guru. No need to increase your helmet size!

noglider 

Excellent thread, and excellent picture. I'm very happy to see a happy ending here.

LWaB

Should be, he wrote the book on Sturmey Archer.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sturmey-Arch.../dp/0950743127

rhm

Bumping this thread to ask the gurus:

What grease?

I understand there are three rings of ball bearings in a Sturmey Archer internally geared hub, and they are packed in grease, while the rest of the internals are lubricated only with oil. I understand the grease serves not only to lubricate the balls, but to seal the oil in. So I need a kind of grease that does not dissolve in oil. Do I have that right?

So my question is, what grease is that? Where did you get it, what was it called, and was it satisfactory?